No one actually knows how to lculate what speaker cable they need
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The audiophiles hearing only approach Most hobbies involved equipment, involves knowledge. Flying or yachting needs license and if you don't study you put your life in danger. But it is also common that photography involve classes to get the basics and more. Even gardening need skills. Some, for a reason would like us the audiophiles have no knowledge at all. We better only use our ears and keep our mouth shut. The less we know the better. That would serve an industry that might enjoy and benefit from this. Its representatives are all over this thread. Just in case you didn't noticed. This repeated say, that the best way to get a good sound system is only by listening techniques is an absurd. At any moment, there are thousands of speakers, amplifiers, sources, cables and more, to create an endless combination. In this game, (invented by who?) the only way to get along is by listening. If you use your brain, you are out of this exclusive club. When the industry representatives will jump on you, it is the end! Well, as this hobby has more options than the amazons jungle trees combined, let's do it their way: Let's cross it, blind folded, only using your ears! It will save you from the predators, the scavengers and the traps. If you use anything else, or remove your eye cover, you are out of the game. I met all kind of guys in this hobby. The worst were those who never got the basics and theory behind it. The ignorant, uneducated but very active! They were always the first to jump on any opportunity to show off their talent…The most annoying at the forums, the worst at gatherings and owning the worst sounding equipment. Please, if some may recognize any of that and feels like I'm talking about them: avoid this thread. It is not for you. |
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Mr. grannnyring Why do you say your word in plural and not in singular? The best would be if everyone would make that decision for himself. Even not by listening to a dealer! You try to describe the audio hobby and the system building as a chaotic process that only can be sought out by listening. At a time that the number of combinations is endless. Well, it is not. There are rules that apply. It is just that there are people who know them and others who don’t. For those who don’t know the rules, others need to help them out by advice. It is mostly working well and also profitable for the one who is giving the advice, not so well for the one who is getting the advice. The journey you try to describe, in this endless possibilities jungle, just using your ears, is impossible. Most will never get there. There must be a more systematic and logical way to do this. There is! Whatever you like it or not, some physics rules apply and you better follow. Acoustics, power, electric compliance and more. Even with the LEGO bricks not all fit. Your desecration is required. I’ve heard a lot this point of view, of getting to the right sound only by using hearing. This is mostly true for those who have no other way to do it, like using knowledge. Is your post actually is a declaration about yourself, only using plural to hide it? For speaker cables that are the subject of this thread, if someone forgot, till now, you were right. From now on, there is a method (new way) to be used, by those who really want the best, not only say they have the best. Read the sharing’s and assimilate. I only offer a new tool in your toolbox to be used and benefit from. This tool is good for speaker cables selection. Hearing is not and never have been a (measuring) tool. Using the wrong speaker cables, have a bad sounding. I don’t buy your say that a poor engineered cable will be the one to sound best. I’m in this hobby for 45 years and I know it is not. So those who gave it a try know. What you are trying to convince me (and others) can benefit only one: the speaker cables industry! Why you don’t simply give your bank a standing order to deposit those 30% of your annual income and get the same feeling? You may save the trouble with the bank and just flash it down the toilet. |
All parts of the system impact the resulting sound including, wire, cable, tubes, trannys, footers, caps, inductors etc.... Since they all impact the sound, then we should listen and make decisions. A cable is also a component and should be listened to wether 24 gauge or 0 gauge. This is after all a hobby and passion for the ears. Engineering and math will tell us an ideal amplifier for a given set of speakers based on the speakers efficiency, sensitivity, impedance curve, room size and listening volumes. Now will the mathematically chosen amp sound as good to the listener as the one he chooses based on actual listening tests? Well we all know the one picked based on actual listening tests will no doubt sound better to the individual. Cables are no different. No I dont want to load in my system needs and have a computer printout what I should buy based on specs and numbers. Goodness no. I want to hear it. |
"Making choices with setting a sound system by hearing. Some components shall be selected with the ears. Like the speakers. Some components shall not! Like the speaker cables." If what you say is true, why after 40+ years of high-end cable use, the preferred way of choice is by ear and not by the numbers? |
Making choices with setting a sound system by hearing. Some components shall be selected with the ears. Like the speakers. Some components shall not! Like the speaker cables. The roll of speaker cables in a sound system is not to tweak the sound. As previously described, the cables are a pair of conductors that should pass 1:1 (transfer function) the audio content of the amplifier’s output to the speakers. Just as a driveshaft pass the motion from the engine to the wheels. Picking a thin cable, is like getting a thin (soft driveshaft) some of the engine power (horse power (=Watts) and torque (=DF) will be lost with a poor driveshaft. Some of the amplifier’s strength and power will be lost with a poor speaker cable. That’s not the way to get a sonic difference. This is only playing on the range between using 100% of that amplifier’s potential to some part of it (sometimes as small as 20%!). The right way, is to get the entire potential (100%). It makes no sense buying powerful amplifiers, spend money on that power and not using its potential. Speaker cables can and should be tailored to your system, to fit its demand and enable the full potential of the amplifier reach the speakers. This is practically the say behind some of the sharing brought here. The change is significant to dramatic. |
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Your cables? Who calculated their gauge by your equipment and length? Who told you what is beneath that nylon net and thick plastic isolation? What are your cable electrical characteristics? You think that by a say you can win a technical debate, but you will need much more then that. As far, it is my calculation (and implementation accordingly) vs. your say, based on thin air and some urban myths, you can keep saying anything. |
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This thread has three angles:
For the clutter of some persistent annoying members, you can realize to what part they belong and why they are so persistent. Bad for them! |
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"Nothing had changed. I do disparage an industry (speaker cables) that has no idea of what they are doing, why one cable is better than another, tell a bunch of urban myths and charge an arm and a leg for that." -You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I and many others here would disagree. "At least I can say that the dealers at the Emotiva Lounge were fair enough to come forward. Not like some other guys here that just fight me with anything they can grab, to throw at me. None of your accusations would stick. I am saying my truth, I always did." - As far as I know, grannyring is the only one on this thread selling cables, he did come forward and uses the AudioGon classifieds. He voices his cables based on listening, the way most of us like to decide what sounds best to us. You do make some questionable claims, based on a ’secret’ formula. "You don’t! even the excel tables were advertised in the oposite way you claimed. So you take bits from here and bits from there and try to get them alingned with your agenda, no matter what. Even if that is a lie." - I have a screen shot of the first excel table you posted first and the second one you posted inplace of the first, they are different. Do I need to post them here for the forum members to read? I have no agenda and I am not lying. From your posts in the Emotiva Lounge & here, makes me think you might have one. |
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I may visit any lounge and as many I wish. I never in my life sold a cable. My story and claim is the same. Nothing had changed. I do disparage an industry (speaker cables) that has no idea of what they are doing, why one cable is better than another, tell a bunch of urban myths and charge an arm and a leg for that. Do you respect that? It looks that you do! At least I can say that the dealers at the Emotiva Lounge were fair enough to come forward. Not like some other guys here that just fight me with anything they can grab, to throw at me. None of your accusations would stick. I am saying my truth, I always did. You don't! even the excel tables were advertised in the oposite way you claimed. So you take bits from here and bits from there and try to get them alingned with your agenda, no matter what. Even if that is a lie. |
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Looks like you have been visiting The Emotiva Lounge. It seems you have been making "friends" there too. It is beginning to seem you are trying to push your "secret formula" on us, in hopes of positive reviews so you can start selling speaker cables. You where a bit more revealing of your intentions over there. "Tell me what amplifier and speakers you use, the desired length, and I'll tell you what AWG would do. I may also give you a quote for such a cable, if you would like to have one." "I am not a cable manufacturer (yet)." Yet you disparage cable makers here. Maybe, after all, you are just another cable maker with a different spiel ... |
Mr. glupson Gentlemen don't argue about facts and feelings. So as a fact, 1.5% THD is not good. If someone likes it – Shall it be. Audio as a concept has two ways to go: The first would take the challenge to try reproducing the source as close as possible. The second would claim, that this goal can't be achieved, so let's go for a sound we like. I'm Ok with both ways to some extent. It is hard for me to like a sound that I know up front it is contaminated with "bad" stuff: High THD, high IMD, high background noise, limited bandwidth, limited dynamic range, bad DF etc'. Than when we go for tube it is also a life cycle that could be different by the day. I liked it so much last week but since, I can't get again the same sound… At the same time, it is impossible to claim that a 1.5% THD is loyal to the origin! The origin had no THD. This figure is mostly get bigger as some is coming from vinyl with 3.5-5% THD and goes to a speaker that might have some THD too. Yes, people like it. I don't. I've heard a say after a live concert that the piano sounds better on his system! Well, is it good for him, or not so good for him? |
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b4icu "But anything above 0.2% is audible. 1.5% is a bad figure for today amps.",As true as it may be, don’t forget that people tend to like some sound so that particular distortion, as presented in numbers, may actually be beneficial and preferred by a given owner. It may not be exactly what came into the amplifier, but may be what makes an owner enjoy more. In 2018, it may be possible to make it closer to perfection, but that perfection may not be pleasant for someone. In some way like putting sugar in the lemonade or some spice in the dish recipe. Others may not like it, but who are they to say anything. |
Mr. stevecham Your post is way off the subject and your attitude is rude. But I'll clear a few facts about your Manley Neo 250 with your speakers. https://www.manley.com/hifi/n250/ At a DF of 14.8 / 17.2 (output resistance = 0.5 Ohms) and a 4 Ohms load @ 218W, 1/8 or 12.5% of that power is dropping on the amp's and 7/8 on the speaker. So you are wasting 27W of the 218W. This is way the cable in your case has no significance. I really would care, if I would you, in such case about the DF. At the time tube amplification first introduced, the amps had very moderate power: 10W-20W. At that time the DF was the same and it was not a problem. Some designs looked into tube as "what was missing is more power", made it to deliver a 250W but over looked all other aspects. Your speakers demand way more than 1W. They are very demanding on impedance and low efficiency. So why would you bring up the 218W power, if you think you need only 1W? It is true that as close as you get to 0W, all problems are gone! The spec. defines 1.5% THD (it's a lot!) and I can't hear it because I'm 10,000 miles away. But anything above 0.2% is audible. 1.5% is a bad figure for today amps. |
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Looks like you have altered your exell sheet. Your original spreadsheet had 3 participants your game, you have deleted Willson and now only have conradnash & keppertup on the latest version. It looks like the satisfaction level has dropped a half point too, from 9 to 8.5. You also removed keppertop's cost for the project. What's up with that? https://imgur.com/a/dPO2o1p |
Mr. flapjack What could be better than a dual purpose cable? If you would read my thread, you could already know that tube amplification have a very low DF, so you could practically borrow your line phone cable and use it for your speakers. If that would be also a long one, you could use it in between listening to your tubes and speaking on the phone, to hang your wet laundry. |
Mr. glupson DF is an amplifier design and making matter that may advertised whatever they felt its right. The high DF is all about controlling the speaker. In electronics, the common idea about it is: the more the better. (Just the opposite of THD or noise: which is the less the better). However, some likes better the sound of amplification with higher THD and very low DF: tubes. That’s Ok too. The new kind of D-class (digital amplifiers, using direct DAC as PWM) have DF of 5000! Even thou those need to be related more like a DF of 1000 (way of calculation). I'm not into say what amp is better for you (it might be another thread) but I do say, for the amp you already own, what would be the best speaker cable. |
geoffkait may be right (mark this day in your century calendar). This is from some cable test where around 50 people showed up. Obviously, those are people more obsessed with audio reproduction than average. Out of them... "55% of voting audience uses bulk wire (not branded) on their home systems. Of those that use branded cables, 72% cost $500 or less per set in retail dollars. Therefore, 13% of audience use “expensive cables”, 33% use branded cables $500 or less." https://www.stereophile.com/content/minnesota-audio-society-conducts-cable-comparison-tests-0#kR5mmi... |
After reading and following this thread from the beginning, I still fail to understand how a fraction of an ohm (or a few milliohms for that matter) can have such a profound effect? When you consider the average speaker's actual impedance curve does not adhere to the rated impedance. My 10GA cables are estimated to pass around 60 or 70 amps. Will a 300A rating make difference? Do I risk the threat of copper thieves breaking into my house and stealing my speaker cable? Please excuse my rambling |
I’ve been buying high end cables for forty years and never spent as much as what it costs for the extra thick car battery type cables. The whole premise that audiophiles are being duped into paying great amounts for cables is ridiculous and simply not true. Of course, their are some audiophiles who buy very expensive cables. This is especially true since the Great Depression. Just like some people buy Ferraris and Lamborghinis. But they’re outliers. They don’t represent a trend or average or anything. Most people have learned to be financially conservative. We buy used. Hel-loo! I don’t see too many audiophiles buying $100,000 turntables, either, these days especially. You’re the only one who’s not happy. Everybody else is happy. Where’s the beef? 🐂 Cable manufacturers have provided more bang for the buck by evolving the whole cable technology, you know, by incorporating very pure metals, advanced geometries, long crystal copper, advanced welding techniques, cryogenics, controlling wire directionality and establishing data for cable burn in. What’s not to like? Revel in your time! 😀 |
"In fact, damping factor means nothing."I know close to nothing about damping factor but am perplexed by such a finite statement. Why do manufacturers of not-so-shabby products mention damping factor then? Is there any reason why a manufacturer of an amplifier would write in a promo material that "damping factor was increased from 205 to 260"? I know it is a promo material, but they get their stripes not on those numbers most of the time. |
Mr. pesky_wabbit I would like to think that the cables industry will catch up and fix the wrong, to get things done properly. Not a big deal. It is not that all the sudden we won't need cables any more. We just need a different type of cable to be made per spec. That spec. shall be calculated and not guessed. On that issue, without undermined your concern to be fair with the cables industry, what about us, the customers that were told wrong so long and been asked to pay an arm and a leg for that? Do you think it was fair? I also would check how we would trust such an industry that had no idea for so long, what they were doing and taking advantage of us. What about all the urbn myths that they spread efficiently. So efficiently that people brought it up on this thread as an argument! You don't mind about all that? |
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Mr. stevecham Why do you come back with a say of DF when you own a Manley NEO 250 with 1.5% THD and a DF of 14.8! https://www.manley.com/hifi/n250/ None of this thread is relevant in your case. So what is your goal in your last post? I thought that we were well done on page 7. |
Mr. stevecham It is not me to invent DF or plant it into your amplifier you already own. If your DF is achieved by feedback, it is the amplifier designer and maker's choice and not mine. This thread is not about modifying a given amplifier's DF to make you happy. All here have an Amp. with a given DF, whatever it is. There is nothing wrong if a well designed amplifier has a high DF even if it is achieved by feedback. Feedback is not a bad word. Some excellent stuff out there is just made like that, to include the M1. Whatever you like it or not, getting a cable by others experiences (more or less, whatever they might say) or by a listening judgment is so wrong. A speaker cable shall be tailored by the amplifier it is connected to, with calculated values and characteristics. Not empirical guess or a blind listening cession. Sorry if that is against your convention. See no issue for you to try it and hear it by yourself. For those who already did, it is a win-win situation. |
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He keeps banging on about damping factor too when it is NOT predictive as to how an amp, cable, speaker will sound. In fact, damping factor means nothing. To my ears, those amps with the highest DF sound like (your favorite scatological noun here) because they implement excessive feedback to control an otherwise unstable circuit! |
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@b4icu I have not had the chance to compare the FM Acoustics directly to the CH Precision using the same speakers. It’s a known fact that FM Acoustics produces very nice electronics, they have been around for many years as well. I’m quite sure that a full line up of FM Acoustics would perform very well indeed, and so there are still quite a few other manufacturers who produce very nice equipment at the highest level. The point is that they are not always available in the country of residence, so choices are not always as divers as in other (your) countries. What I usually do is use electronics from the same origin, so either a full set up of brand A, or a full set up of brand B. That’s the reason I currently play with C1/X1, D1/X1, L1/X1, M1 all made by CH Precision. (Only the bass towers use Gryphon dedicated amplifiers). Cables are either by CH Precision or Gryphon. Only the speaker cables are made by Kharma, and are also the oldest components in the line up. Usually a manufacturer will do its utmost to "tune" the components to each other, and often a combination of such equipment may perform better than a mixture of different brands. Another point to consider is that it also looks good, to me that’s important too. Speakers may be an exception, and are of a different brand. (Gryphon Pendragon). Sorry, this is a little off topic, but as you had asked for it ;) |
For those who are worried of a speaker cables impedance (none resistance values, of capacitance and inductance, in addition to the resistance): Capacitance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor#Parallel-plate_model The Parallel-plate model, of two thin parallel conductive plates resembling the two speaker wires (red and black) with a dielectric material in between (the cable's isolators). The structure of such speaker cable is provided by how the two wires are embedded into the isolator. Some are round and twisted, some are flat and are one next to the other (not top over the other!). This is mostly defined by the length and width of the cable (equal area of a capacitor plates) the distance in between (the two wires) and the isolating material that gets in between. It is always about two of them: the red wire isolator and the black wire isolator. Some designs separate the two cables (my DIY approach), to be of two different cables. Then they are apart from each other and not run in parallel as with some other designs. In most cables, such a capacitance is of a few Pico farads (10-9) and it is a very small value in general, especially when refer to a voltage source as a SS, with very low output resistance and at audio frequencies (up to 100kHz).
Inductance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductance The Mutual inductance of two parallel straight wires is the more relevant to speaker cables, unless you have a long cable coiled on the floor. Again, if the two are separate (my DIY approach) the inductance is null. In some cables that would run the two wires in parallel as in flat cables, of the twisted pair approach, it is more of a concern. But even there, at most times the value of such Inductance is of micro Henry (10-6). Also a tiny value compared to the cross over coils and the speaker drivers. The value is too small to be of a concern with most SS amplification and the audio frequency range. The ideal cable would be one with no Inductance and no Capacitance (also no resistance). Presence of such impedance of a speaker cable (or any cable) might work as a filter, depends of topology and values. No one wants that over a cable. Some of the amplifiers (tube and tube alike) are more susceptible to cable impedance and those would color the sound. At those cases a negligible thing might become noticeable. A cable that would present a capacitance between two ends of a speaker cable (as seen by the amp.) is called Low Pass Filter (LPF) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-pass_filter The higher the FR, the more of that energy is absolved by the capacitor. If a cable is presented with an inductance, it would be serial. That is also a LPF. (Ref. to the RLC model). Summary: Cables with impedance are less good for a 1:1 transfer function as a speaker cable. Separate cables as my DIY approach, would be the best to decrease any impedance to null. Cables that are molded in a parallel structure, flat or in twisted pairs, may have an impedance factor. Try to avoid them as much as possible. A cable's impedance (of significant values) would act as a LPF on an audio signal and will dim the highs vs. other FR. From now on, please keep the impedance issue out of my cables solution. They do not apply. |
Mr. han_n At the time you were looking into the M1, did you know of FM Acoustics? They are also Swiss made and have some excellent stuff. |
@b4icu Why I choose the M1 ? The M1 provides me the highest dynamics and is more transparent than any other amp I've had or heard. But I have to admit that the difference may also be caused partially by the pre-amp, which I switched at the same time. I have a set-up using everything from the same manufacturer, and this combination is just amazing. |
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