Holy moly terry9, to the non-audiophile that might sound borderline whacky! That's quite a cleaning process, but I understand. It's all part of the fun, almost ceremonial process of vinyl listening. I have a nice little collection of tobacco pipes and enjoy the process of smoking occasionally, and often relate listening to vinyl and smoking a pipe. I felt lazy about using my new Spin Clean, but I feel embarrassed now after hearing your process. You don't have one of those Nitty Gritty units do you? I imagine your cleaning gear is worth more than my entire TT set up.
I also noticed in another post you mentioned Bryston, do you have one? |
Terry9, I don't know why one should fear "oil" would be a problem with new LPs, but if it ever were a problem, one would be best off to use a solvent that can have a hope of solubilizing oily compounds, which would involve using a mild detergent, either ionic or non-ionic. Ultrasound and either "pure" or "distilled" water (you used these terms; I don't know how you distinguish between them) might not solubilize oily petroleum derivatives. There is a prevailing belief that new LPs are plagued by "mold release" compounds; this idea has been recently dispelled; there's no such thing, according to one authority.
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Hello Wetfeet.
Yes, as I mentioned, a bit unstable on the subject. I use a commercial US unit from Germany, Elmasonic, with a motor driven contraption above the tank to turn the records. I get best results cleaning two records at a time, which give the US waves plenty of room to develop fully, and also, allows about 80 W per record for cleaning.
I also use a lab grade detergent in the cleaning solution, specially formulated for plastics (so says the blurb), known as Versaclean, at the lower end of the recommended range (40:1). As you point out, Lew, pure water would not dissolve oil, and one would expect any oil removed by US cavitation to re-adhere to the vinyl surface.
Lew, I have read both: that mold release compound was (is?) used by some manufacturers but not others, and also that any residual oil is the product of the pressing process. I have no expert opinion on the matter, but I am playing it safe. Anyway, it's easier to plunge a new record into a standard solution - with 4 rinses, (3 with purified water (2 rinses under running water, one immersion), by 'purified' I mean the best tap water on the continent run through a grit filter and then a charcoal filter, and one rinse with distilled water), there are probably 0 molecules of detergent on the vinyl surface - comparable to the final plunge in distilled water.
I saw an analysis of the grunge in record grooves, and what caught my eye was something like 30% diamond dust!!!!! Now, where could that have come from? And what did it do to the next stylus?? AGHH???
Hence ultrasound. YMMD
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Wetfeet, I forgot to respond to your question about Bryston.
I am using home-brew Class A electronics now, which is a big step up from Bryston, but I still remember both the 3B-SST and 4B-SST fondly. Bulletproof doesn't begin to say it. I accidentally shorted out the 4B by touching the speaker terminals to an aluminum chassis, basically using the machine as an arc-welder. Naturally, the 4B shut right down. I thought, "I can't expect Bryston to pay for this much foolishness," but thought that I might as well listen before I packed it up for factory service.
I waited half an hour for it to cool right down, then fired it up. Perfect. Unchanged. Wow.
Also, before I bought them, I talked to the factory. They put me through to some guy, highly expert, who took an hour to talk audio with me. Turned out, he was the president. Some company.
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More about Bryston - the SST's were very musical, not harsh at all, and that in an all-electrostatic system. Now I have more clarity, but I could still be happy with a system built around Bryston. Recommended product, recommended company. |
Gosh terry9, "unstable" was just a tip of the iceberg. I'd love to see your entire system. It sounds like you are, how should I say, deep into it. I fully agree with your assessment of Bryston. I don't believe I've owned anything whatsoever for 17 years, much less an electronic component. 2 years ago, which is 15 years after buying the unit, sent it in for a little check up, Bryston replaced the entire front faceplate and knobs gratis because a little paint was coming off the name, the guy says that wasn't suppose to happen. Exemplary product. In fact I'm having a hard time parting with it and now planning a completely un-needed second system for somewhere in the house based around the old Bryston. Although in my heart I really wanted a second "fantasy" system to be pure tubes, just for contrast. Interesting you've went to Class A, as I see many manufacturers going to Class D, like a Bel Canto, Peachtree, Wyred, etc.
I couldn't decide so I went with a hybrid.
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Dkarmeli, I suppose price is relevant. The Esprit DC is no VPI Scout by any means, but it's not a Crosley either. It fits in with my system and budget, and I can at least upgrade the cart down the line. I'm not sure what type of bass a much higher priced unit would give. I'm not a bass head or looking for exaggerated bass, I just want to hear what's supposed to be there, naturally. I've went to considerable length and cost to have natural bass in my system. Wetfeet, ime natural bass is critical also difficult to realize when only so few components are natural to begin with, so I applaud you in your quest. I find some vintage tts and arms have that natural quality while most modern ones I've heard/owned, including some big ticket table, are anything but natural. david |
Wetfeet, I like Class A. Profligate use of power, but commensurately clean sound. With ESL's you really hear it.
[Heresy alert] By the way, my electronics are all solid state, full complementary designs. The electronics may not sound the best, but the system does. That is because the amps can be designed so that they cannot overdrive the speakers into protection - and that means that performance robbing protection circuits are necessary, and if present, can be removed with impunity.
Which explains the paradox: even if the amps are not the absolute best, the system as a whole has been optimized. |
As I figured and many did, "listen for ...hours" would not help the main issue. The low price tag perhaps made manufacturer(or dealer) be negligent to details and quality of assembly and setup. If you have tiny pliers something like in Leatherman pocket tool I'd carefully remove all cartridge clips and crimp them slightly more to make sure that they provide nice and tight connection to the cartridge pins. Be super careful not to rip them off the headshell and always use pliers when taking off and fitting back on. I'd also check carefully alignment and properly set-up VTF with tools to check and fix manufacturer or dealer negligent setup. If you go to turntablebasics.com, you'll be able to find basic tools to properly align cartridge and tracking weight. With new wires I'd work on research first. I don't know any market for outboard interconnects with thin gauge for turntable. Basically you'd want the same thickness of wires as going out from your arm on the interconnects. You'd also want minimal per-unit capacitance of wire, because for the MM cartridge it's crucial and not so for MC. For your reference, find out the electrical parameters of the stock interconnects you're using from manufacturer. Years back they used to be available in conventional electronic stores with ground wire attached, now I've seen some on internet (needledoctor) at price tag 4x higher than your whole analogue setup. If you don't want to tense your wallet and save a lot without loosing performance of your system, I use http://www.gepco.com/products/proav_cable/analog_audio/singdual_xband_F.htm. This cable is easy to fit safely onto the RCA jacks and provides low-to-no noise signal transfer with great dynamics. I'm sure that it will outperform your stock interconnects if properly terminated. For best results use http://www.parts-express.com/neutrik-nf2c-b-2-profi-professional-rca-plug-pair--092-114 Neutrik Pro-Fi connectors that are very easy to terminate and lockable. |
Wetfeet, I like Class A. Profligate use of power, but commensurately clean sound. With ESL's you really hear it.
[Heresy alert] By the way, my electronics are all solid state, full complementary designs. The electronics may not sound the best, but the system does. That is because the amps can be designed so that they cannot overdrive the speakers into protection - and that means that performance robbing protection circuits are necessary, and if present, can be removed with impunity.
Which explains the paradox: even if the amps are not the absolute best, the system as a whole has been optimized.
Very interesting and ambitious quest terry9, as it would seem darn near impossible to improve upon the characteristics of the Bryston. That's quite an accomplishment, would love to hear your system and compare the sonic qualities to my (now) Class D/tube hybrid. |
If you have tiny pliers something like in Leatherman pocket tool I’d carefully
remove all cartridge clips and crimp them slightly more to make sure that they provide nice and tight connection to the cartridge pins. Be super careful not to rip them off the headshell and always use pliers when taking off and fitting back on. I’d also check carefully alignment and properly set-up VTF with tools to check and fix manufacturer or dealer negligent setup. If you go to turntablebasics.com, you’ll be able to find basic tools to properly align cartridge and tracking weight. With new wires I’d work on research first. I don’t know any market for outboard interconnects with thin gauge for turntable. Basically you’d want the same thickness of wires as going out from your arm on the interconnects. You’d also want minimal per-unit capacitance of wire, because for the MM cartridge it’s crucial and not so for MC. For your reference, find out the electrical parameters of the stock interconnects you’re using from manufacturer.
Years back they used to be available in conventional electronic stores with ground wire attached, now I’ve seen some on internet (needledoctor) at price tag 4x higher than your whole analogue setup. If you don’t want to tense your wallet and save a lot without loosing performance of your system, I use http://www.gepco.com/products/proav_cable/analog_audio/singdual_xband_F.htm. This cable is easy to fit safely onto the RCA jacks and provides low-to-no noise signal transfer with great dynamics. I’m sure that it will outperform your stock interconnects if properly terminated. For best results use http://www.parts-express.com/neutrik-nf2c-b-2-profi-professional-rca-plug-pair--092-114 Neutrik Pro-Fi connectors that are very easy to terminate and lockable. Great info and links, thanks! I opened them, looks like great stuff, the spark has been fueled to improve the cabling. Perfect mod for the table. And at a good time, get this - after the last loose cable incident, last night I was listening to an LP and noticed a buzzing hum during quiet passages, drove me crazy turning things on and off throughout the house, nothing. Finally directed my attention to the TT, dreaded the infamous hum I’ve read about but supposedly gone with this model, fiddled with the RCA cable in back of the unit and whamo, instantly gone. Strangely it wasn’t the ground cable. So, regardless of sound quality I’m going to replace all the cabling for the table, just to make sure it is absolutely right. I wonder if it would be a good idea to just do 1 long run from the cart to the amp and bypass the inner connection of tonearm to RCA? |
It's good idea to do a solid run from arm to rca jacks.
There are many options available. Buzz may be from loose cartridge clips. I also suspect assembly quality to the RCA recepticles. |
I know it's been over a month since anyone was on this thread but I thought I'd mention I had continuing problems with the crappy included interconnects, mostly ground hum and a loose inner connection at the RCA point. Just by touching it I would get crackling etc. So in the end I opted to order a pretty economical cable as opposed to making it, as I had planned. It was all of 40 bucks from a flea bay seller who mostly markets them towards Thoren users for some reason. They were considerably thicker yet flexible, shielded, and very nice Neutrik connectors. The surprising thing is that after installing the cable, and I thought it would just stop the crackling/him, the bass was much better, and everything quiet. I'm not starting a cable debate or saying everyone should buy expensive cables, but I will say a good quality, well made cable seems much better than the bottom of the barrel cheapo that often comes with gear. Personally, I'd rather just pay a little more upfront for a better interconnect.
So I think between the two cable/connection problems, I've come full swing from an initial feeling of buyer's remorse, to thoroughly enjoying the table at this point. Toe tapping fun. |
