I stopped doing this,

because I couldn't remember what I listened to.

All the best,
Nonoise

I meant questions for all on thread.

@mahgister  You are well read and make many good points, but spirit doesn't come solely from books and philosophers. Spirit is lived, it is personal experience. I heard much spirit in music I listened to last night, Glenn Gould's Goldberg Variations, what spirit! So many others as well, I was on spiritual journey lead by so many great musicians with such great spirit. And to think I have system that delivers this spirit with illusion of these performers in my room, Yes, this audiophile thing is spiritual work!

 

And now for something completely different. Do you believe one can cultivate the spirit through hallucinogenic substances?  Does proper intention alongside hallucinogenic ingestion create space for seeing the unseen. I can only answer for myself, that indeed it does! Spirit lives in the places normal everyday life obscures, to use an old worn out cliche, opening new doors of perception allows one visions of what was formerly unseen. My forays into this area spurred by early writings of Carlos Castaneda and Travels with Don Juan. I used these readings as my intention when entering these realms.

@mahgister ,

It's not an either/or situation.
It's not like a faucet: fully on or shut completely off. 
It's moderation in everything we do.

All the best,
Nonoise

@mahgister   Gaslight much?  

Next christmast i will stay alone and mute...

Thanks for your feedback...

 

The filibuster is busted.

It stops being a conversation if one person posts most of the time. With all due respect to the energy and enthusiasm of our monologist, I'm unsubscribing from my own thread. 

Goedel was not playing chess with death like the medieval crusader in the film , but he played against himself unbeknownst to him... This part of ourself which is impersonal pure possible evil: cold ice mechanical logic...

Mathematics itself is not logical and is not LOGIC, it is a work of love, all possible and contingencies, and necessities are preserved by the living universal imagination...The translation of all possible worlds in one another maintain freedom and choices... Goedel Famous incompletude theorems speak about mathematics being a a growing infinite living cellulars organism flowering structure born from love ... not a logical uncompleted frozen tree...

Logic is one of the tool with which man studies forms and numbers and abstract infinite language...Language is also a tool to study mathematics...Art is a tool...

nature is a tool.... Our imagination is the main tool....Computers are a tool also...

But A.I. computerized proving machine and survey will never create meaning.... meaning are always also mystereies and not only known significations...

Now in the " seventh seal " one of the greatest film ever made, there is a word that struck me : "if the devil exist God must exist too"...

The greatest logician after Aristotle is certainly Goedel who designed for himself a new proof about the existence of God around the Anselm proof.. It is called Goedel ontological argument....

I will not go in the proof details, and the meaning of the axioms here, because it is astonishingly abstract, and not necessary to describe my take about it...One critic of the proof made a great observation ...

From wiki:

«Many philosophers have called the axioms into question. The first layer of criticism is simply that there are no arguments presented that give reasons why the axioms are true. A second layer is that these particular axioms lead to unwelcome conclusions. This line of thought was argued by Jordan Howard Sobel,^[12] showing that if the axioms are accepted, they lead to a "modal collapse" where every statement that is true is necessarily true, i.e. the sets of necessary, of contingent, and of possible truths all coincide (provided there are accessible worlds at all).^{[note 6]} According to Robert Koons,^{[9]: 9} Sobel suggested in a 2005 conference paper^{[citation needed]} that Gödel might have welcomed modal collapse.^{[13] »}

 

 

What struck me was the fact that Goedel would have welcome the "modal collapse"... What it is ? it is the fact that a proof of God, if it was a valid one logically will place all contingent, necessary, and possible truths on the same footing, they will all coincide or converge...

This remind me of the existence of the Goedel machine theory by one of the father of A.I. Jurgen Schmidhuber, his Goedel machine will live in a world were anything will be processed to be a convergent center of autodesign , where the contingent, the necessary and the possible will be FORCE to coincide like on a Procustean bed nourishing an infinite progess of automodification toward an indefinte intelligent perfection...

https://arxiv.org/abs/cs/0309048

Then what is my point?

Simple the existence of A. I. and of the Goedel machine POINTED TO THE POSSIBLE existence of pure evil because where all living phenomena ask for maintaining the difference between the possible, the necessary and the contingent and for which , the possible, the contingent and the necessary must never be reduced to unity in a modal collapse...For evil it is the goal itself...

LOVE OPEN ALL POSSIBLE, DEATH which is not evil close them for a moment but EVIL WANT TO CLOSE ALL POSSIBLE FOR ETERNITY...

Then If A.I. exist and for me after study it exist, God must exist also...

Goedel never realized that the God he wanted to prove to exist was never the God of love the loving God, but pure evil , and a hive super-consciousness reducing all living possibles to his dead end iced will......

 

Now think about what Goethe said....

«There is no theory behind the phenomena, the phenomena are the theory» -Goethe

This means that man can contemplate the mysteries and educate his own mind to seize them as complementary interprenetrating MYSTERIES, but man MUST not and anyway will never be able to realize what only EVIL can do reducing all living phenomena to a dead theory external to them...

Goethe is a deeep well.... Even more wise than the super human Goedel intellect...

This is the difference between spirit and mere intellect....

 

 

«All your words are non sense, we cannot prove that love exist nor disprove it, save for  my lovely  wife »-Groucho Marx 🤓

 

«All great men are refined sismograph whose variations indicated the tremors level in the world»-Anonymus smith

«But the greatest among them heal and pacify the world»-Anonymus smith

 

«Animals heal us already and trees could heal the planet»-Anonymus Smith

 

«Anyway i only trust robot, they dont eat, dont bark and ask for anything not even water»-Groucho Marx 🤓

 

The problem with Asimov robotic laws to insure that robot will put human life by programmation above their own security, it is that is impossible to implement them...We can create Goedel machine that will increase their own power at one condition: they will master their OWN continuously increasing universe by reducing the existing one to be only materials to satisfy their needs... In this universe man will be a useless piece of matter.... the earth will be only an artificial space ship for the A. I. No need of air or even water...This is mathematical, the Goedel machine is artificially expanding yes but closed in itself......An artificial intelligence by definition is artificial, unconnected save externally to anything outside it.... Man and any living system are internally connected...

In a specific sense man and dogs or elephants partake the same form of CONNECTED intelligence... A.I. is another form of "intelligence" more akin to an eternal cube of increasing ice...

Transhumanist cultist fearing death adore a god which is death himself...

«Who is more intelligent than the angel of death anyway...»-Anonymus smith

« Play chess with me»- Ingmar Bergman Death angel 

The Bruno Groening story is really a deep parable about Health, medecine, corporations, and freedom...

In the actual crisis cheap medecines were trashed and FORBIDDEN by law..Killing drug inforced by law (remdesivir)

The freedom to care and the free relation between doctor and patient cancelled and subordinated to the state like under Stalin even in my supposedly free country Canada ...yes......In france people are on the street....

Now imagine a man who can heal instantaneously and without asking any money erasing any disease in a person or in a crowd ... For many doctors it will be humiliating and a big loss of money... He should be stop at all cost ... He was...

Now imagine this man today amidst a pandemy.... He would have been killed perhaps by corporations , not legally stopped like in 1950...

This Groening parable not only is a true moving story reminding us of the parable of the Christ return in Dostoievsky "the great inquisitor " but the most deep story to be told nowadays among the general fear mongering and blind politicians and monster corporations...

We live an interesting century in all fields:

Spiritually,

in economy, in physics, in mathematics, in medecine, in technology in general, in politics i cannot list all fields, all fields are affected at the same time by a complete revolution... my own quest is : what is the relation between each revolution in each fields and the global revolution on earth ....

Amazing...

I want to live to see the next....And i hope to perceive the beginning of the answer to the riddle of man ascent or descent...

 

 

FICTION DONT HOLD A CANDLE TO REALITY...

And sorry for scientists here miracles indeed exist....

Anyway even if most scientists dont know it yet, number theory is not " logical" or akin to human desire and taste, and number theory is itself a miracle not a simple tool created by apes like materialist will claim ... The miracles of mathematics and of prime numbes distribution meaning is described by the great mathematician Shinichi Mochizuki in the last 10 years, creating a worldwide controversy in mathematics that is not yet officially settled...

I like mathematics especially number theory, sorry....

 

You are right my friend!

 

I am a bit disapointed that NO ONE look at the documentary about one of the MOST extraordinary DOCUMENTED event of the last century with ALL the redacted testimonies of thousand of people who lived through the events for many years...

Some narrow mind claim that miracles dont exist only Newton laws revised by Einstein and Planck...

The Bruno Groening event in Germany before and after the 2 wars falsify that opinion...

Like in the Sidis case reality here exceed any fiction...This Groening repeat Christ miracles, testified by doctors, filmed, photographed and curing crowds by thousands numbers and at distance... No novelist will dare to create a so less credible and unbelieveble story...

His end meet the fateful  end of Christ...Humankind is immature  and many  technocrat are "monsters", and like predicted by Dostoievsky they will emprisonned and tortured the Christ himself if he dare to come anew... With Brunon Groening the Dostoievsky thought experiment in the "great inquisitor dialogue" was proven right to the letter... Verify the story by yourself...

 

I dont think that this miraculous man could be debunked by anyone... this is history... The reason why i post it is tho suggest to some that the universe will never be reduced to our narrow science conceptions and like just said the contrite string theorist Edward Witten perhaps the universe is not here to be only understood at our convenience...

i will make the link anew here, anyway this more than 3 hours documentary is moving and my christmast gift to all...

There is 3 parts this is the first one....

Listen to this you will not regret.....

 

 

I consider it nearly an art form, in itself, to remain at peace while the craziness of the world unfolds around us ... music helps a lot

 

@mahgister Think about that.... Only transhumanists cultists are not frightened...They fear death...I dont fear death but i fear robots....

+1

 

Thanks 

tunefuldude and ghasley to be my "advocates"...

I wish you more than the best....

Unable to solve all our divisions , a new division comes to the front soon, and i cannot think otherwise than thinking about the Sidis sacred vouch to not create new technology because mankind cannot live wisely and in peace now...

Perhaps Sidis was not the failed dreamer some said he was...But a true spiritual genius at the end...

Read me right i am not for the return into the cave with hunter gatherers... But ask yourself who will control this new "intelligence" who will surpass mankind by being a "hive-like intelligence" ?

How we, who participate and partake into something living and spiritual with air, water, earth soil, trees, animals and angels, will share the earth with "something" who dont need air, water, earth soil,trees,animals or angels, especially if this "something" own a kind of intelligence surpassing any humans but without body, save mechanical parts, no soul, and no spirit...

Think about that.... Only transhumanists cultists are not frightened...They fear death...I dont fear death but i fear robots....

Now think about Nietszche WARNING again: «Only he who has spirit ought to have possessions: otherwise possessions are a public danger.»

Who will own A.I. ? If we dont have spirit perhaps A. I. will own us at last...Our artefact will destroy us in some way...

Or perhaps A. I. will be controlled by the like of Gates and Bezos and the unknown one and others "benefactors" of mankind who will say to us: "WE Gates/Bezos/Musk have spirit, you mankind had LESS, i know better than doctors or scientists, or better than yourself and my life work is the proof because at last i work for the well being of mankind ..."

Did you not smell a bit of hubris and stupidity here?

I smell it...

Reality exceed fiction in miracles and mysteries....Reality dont ask to be believed first and last ... @mahgister

I don’t think you need to apologize to the OP, I highly suspect this thread has way exceeded his expectations. And I, personally, love to read your posts. None of us are really alone here, now are we?

Peace and joy to you this Christmas, my friend

 

Well wishes your way @mahgister you are never alone!

I apologize to the OP for my long posts ...

It is the first time of my life that i was alone at Christmast... My wife is with his old mother and his sister is ill...

Stay safe in this time of isolation....

I forgot to say that Sidis even surpassed Norbert Wiener, himself an ex-child prodigy, whom he knows at Harvard because the created together a club of geniuses with only 3 members...( the other being the music composer Roger Sessions if my memory is good)

Norbert Wiener created Cybernetics by himself or old A.I , and make deep discoveries in mathematics and in physics like the late Janos von Neumann...But unlike Neumann the sympathetic Wiener refuse to speak to anyone who worked for the military... Think about that....A commoon point with Sidis who declare at 11 years old that he will take the SACRED VOUCH to never invented ANY technology because humanity is too war-like and dont understand society ( save some Indians tribes Sidis considered more advanced)

Believe it or not by the precocity of talents and the mastering of fields at young age , Sidis Exceed these two, Wiener and Neumann who worked among other thing the FIRST architecture of computers and who were the most gifted scientist in the world ....

A last point how do we know Sidis I.Q. ?

He lived before the second world war at a times where all government job necessitate testing routine I.Q. formulary , and at each new job he was tested and sometimes recognized because he was over any testable scale in I. Q. He quitted often many jobs because he hate to be named a "genius" after his own mother exploitation and his father bragging and stricted education...His I.Q. is only guessed by putting him out of the scale at least with 250....And probably 300 which is two times the minimal number usually associated with genius : 145...

He worked sometimes with 2 mechanical additive computer , one for each hand, and like it because he said i can think at the same time... 😊

His father spoke more than 20 languages, i think 24, wrote 17 books and was considered one of the greatest psychiatrist and psychologist in America with his friend William James who gives his name to the Sidis baby... He taught medecine to his uneducated future wife and euclidean geometry before marrying her , she was herself a genius they married and decided to train their baby... The rest is history...

 

Do you know why i quit reading S-F novel long ago?

Reality exceed fiction in miracles and mysteries....Reality dont ask to be believed first and last ...

«The importance of sound or of silence is way more exagerated»- a yogi

 

William James Sidis is so highly intelligent that his life is UNBELIEVABLE, for example:

Given IQ is a purely anthropocentric means of assessing intelligence, Sidis’ IQ is crudely estimated at 250-300.
Mastered higher mathematics and planetary revolutions by age 11.
Learned to spell efficiently by one year old.
Started reading The New York Times at 18 months.
Read Caesar’s Gallic Wars, in Latin (self-taught), as a birthday present to his Father in Billy’s fourth year.
Learned Greek alphabet and read Homer in Greek in his fourth year.
Learned Aristotelian logic in his sixth year and said to his mother thay he regret to have not studied logic BEFORE... 😊
At six, Billy learned Russian, French, German, and Hebrew, and soon after, Turkish and Armenian.
Learned Gray’s Anatomy at six. Could pass a student medical examination and enter University in medecine because it was the high bar at these times...
Total recall of everything he read.
Wrote four books between ages of four and eight. Two on anatomy and astronomy, lost.
Passed Harvard Medical School anatomy exam at age seven.
Passed MIT entrance exam at age eight.
Attempted to enroll in Harvard at nine.But he was too SHORT in body...
In 1909, became youngest student to ever enroll at Harvard at age 11.
Billy graduated from Harvard, cum laude, on June 24, 1914, at age 16. He teach mathematical texts in their original languages but cannot be taken seriously by students many years older than he was...
Billy entered Harvard Law School in 1916.
Billy could learn a whole language in one day!
Billy knew all the languages (approximately 200) of the world, and could translate among them instantly! At 16 years old he was in Anarchist society and he was spoken translator for all languages...
He wrote a book i read under 20 years old "The animate and the inanimate" where he predicted the existence of black hole before Oppenheimer and Chandrasekhar paper and the existence of non living organic matter in the universe with thermodynamical deep  reflections...
He wrote a book "the states and the Tribes"where he reflected about the origin of democracy in America and the Indian and explain their origin...Anyway he know all Indian languages because it wasa passion of his own and he was able to decipher the quipus of south america...
At 11 years at Harvard in 1910 he give a conference about the projection of four dimensional body in 3 D space and he answer question about the New Einstein theory... All is written ...

 

Now what is the main point about Sidis:

To liberate himself from celebrity and exploitation he deecide to be recluse

And exclude all art, sex, and MUSIC of his life... All the feminine asect of life and he lived in his head with few friends but alone in hiding...

Conclusion: Art, love, music is the salt of life and if a man lack of them his soul stiffen...Any man need a woman...

Sidis never touch a woman save one by the hand ONE time in his life at 16 years of age and keep his image on himself all his life even after this woman marry an pother man... He lived without art nor love....Save in his head...

The story of Sidis is so incredible than a biography of his life EXCEED science fiction...

The proof: i read Olaf Stapledon novel of a superhuman man in intelligence "odd John" a very interesting novel about intelligence i read long ago..

The incredible fact is the real Sidis exceed by a huge margin "ood john" himself in precocity and talents ... Why ? Because any novel must stay plausible and credible to be trusted and believed...

 

My point is music convey the spirit which keep our soul alive and keep off our body from drying perhaps....

My other point we are all unequal in gift but if someone here think he is more intelligent than all the others here i will recommend that he read sidis life and this will humble him ....

There is a deep mathematical theorem about the way a set of points are all near one another by relation to a fixed chosen point...

Sidis is my fixed chosen point then we are all equal here in intelligience or near so...

😊😊😊😊😊😊

merry Christmast

 

 

 

«Why do you put your ears near the speakers my friend? I listen to my amplifier»-An audiophile dialogue in inferno

«My amplifier sound way better than my speakers»- An audiophile thinking about an upgrade

«With my electronic equalizer i created the sound i want to taste each passing minute nevermind the music» an anonymus DSP engineer audiophile

«This dac will sound marvellous in ANY room, with ANY gear, and for ANY ear » a seller

«Cables makes a difference ...NO not at all, cables makes no differences... But wait a minute tubes certainly did? i prefer S.S.» Audiophiles arguing

«Keep the room but changes the fuses» An audiophile

«My audio system reproduce exactly the lived original event no doubt!» An anonymus audiophile

«High end costly gear makes a difference in your pocket more than in S.Q. if you dont study physical acoustic and psycho-acoustic »-Myself

 

«I love Wagner»-Nietszche 1868

« Wagner is nuisible »-Nietszche 1888

«Sound is like the body, it can die, but the music stay anyway»-Groucho Marx🤓

«If you know how to whistle anyway you dont need a stereo system»-Roger Whitaker

«Music is beautiful!»- Helen Keller mute,deaf and blind

 

 

«We dont know what the sound/music relation is, anybody pretending to know is a fool, sound is an experience not an equation» A mathematician by formation which is also one of the greatest maestro and one of the greatest philosopher of the 20 th century which i will not name here because this citation is my own interpretation of his 1200 pages book on music experience history...

 

«Only 2 sounds resonated through all the universe in 1945: the explosion of Hiroshima and the AUM sound, extraterrestrial notice the first with the help of the other»- an anonymus whistleblower from secret program..

«Without air no music and no sound» -A physicist

«Sound need air like a fire need wood»- an alchemist

« Music need silence more than sound need air»-a musician

«Bats, blind people, and dolphins see  bodies qualities  with sounds; our spoken words are perhaps way more than we think they are» -Anonymus Smith 

 

In the course to prove that they are much different than one another people buy artefacts, and create new one for the sake of the difference and feel then different at least if not superior...

This is a UNIVERSAL trends...

People are connected by the heart and differ by their bodies...

The spirit experience is the same all over the world but the way this experience manifest itself through the body and through our participation of nature differ...

Now read what Nietszche said:

«Only he who has spirit ought to have possessions: otherwise possessions are a public danger. »

Is it not clear?

Read audio thread where people vouch about gear forgetting the essential key to the experience: acoustic and psycho-acoustic....They think an amplifier is more important than the acoustic link between the gear/room/ears...

In audio experience it is not the possession that define the experience it is acoustic and psycho-acoustic law because the sound/music experience is the same, based on the same science, but artefacts differ and the way this experience manifested itself may differ...

 

 

 

Great post!

You are right about everything in your remarks...

But going back to the Dyonysian experience which inspire Nietszche and his sacred festivities but especially going back to the Mysteries Sacred schools experiment like in Eleusis, which was a center of sprit around for all people of the mediterranean sea, we realized the experience of spirit in Greece is not completely foreing to the ancient hebrew "ruach" perception and experience....

The intimate participation to the spirit mimic one another in Greek and Jews and in all cultures anyway , the spirit experience ultimately is the same, think about NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCE for example or out of the body experiences, but the way to express it and partipate to nature differ...

One of the best book on that is Peter Kingsley "reality"....Jews civilization of the Alexandrine period and after it is way more nearer to the Greek that  what we had learned in our younger days...

Alexandria was the cosmopolitan Paris/ Newyork of the ancient world and jews scholars meets there with Greeks even were influenced by Greek thought on a level underestimated completely 50 years ago..

lIsten to this scholar takes about Alexandria era....

Plato All the Way Down: Solving Biblical Mysteries with Russell Gmirkin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsL7m6VSNTM&t=4995s

Just a meaningful anecdote: Egyptian priesthood at the bibliotheca of Alexandria, the biggest in the world collected all documents of ANY political constitution or about philosophy and science they coud grap... They ask Corinthians for example give us your city constituion written document, we will copy it and return you back, in the mean time we will send you a gold warrenty for sure... Corinthians obeyed and accepted the gold send their constitution; but after some years, the Egyptians never answering the Corenthians demands for the retrurn, said keep the gold we keep the constitution and we will send you a copy.... That speak a lot about their passionate urge to collect EVERYTHING ....They ask jews scholars what are your people think about God, your history , etc wrote it for us and we will keep it in the bibliotheca... Guess what comes from it? It is Gmirkin well researched thesis...

 

Humans of all culture are way more similar to one another that they ever think they are, but they dont understand it, they dont want to know it, and they do all they can to prove this wrong...The experience of the spirit is the SAME all over the world, but the way we participate to nature is not....

Humans are connected by the heart and separated by the body....

 

 

 

We must speak sometimes to one another from a wider perspective like the OP wisely suggest...

 

But you are right also for sure in some way about this perilous tentative...

Second, in a forum such as this, it’s a real challenge to adequately express complex philosophical, ethical, religious (spirit-ual) concepts, considering the nature of the medium and its audience. In retrospect, maybe doing so is a fool’s errand.

@ mahgister - Thanks much for your latest response to me.  I'm all good, so no problem.  I also often regret my passions :) 

Second, in a forum such as this, it's a real challenge to adequately express complex philosophical, ethical, religious (spirit-ual) concepts, considering the nature of the medium and its audience.  In retrospect, maybe doing so is a fool's errand.

RE: N's use of the term/concept of "spirit" seems to me to be quite different from the Hebrew as used by the ancients (I have studied Hebrew), from which you make reference.  It would have been more helpful and clear had I effectively engaged this particular quibble. But again, the nature of the forum is challenging when attempting to engage even such limited scope.

All that said, Hilde does make an interesting and potentially profitable observation by posing the question he does - just in terms of an ethical consideration some may wish to ponder.  I'm merely observing that, perhaps, utilizing N does more to confuse or obscure the matter for interested readers than provide clarity necessary for arriving at a more mature understanding of the matter.  

It's even sillier to post about something silly.

Enjoy your retirement.

What a silly read on this Christmas of 2021. I have worked long and hard to buy the gear to build my system. And now that I'm retired I shall enjoy the music my system brings forth. 

First there is no noble or vile aspect about materialism...This is meaningless speaking...

Materialism is very easy to understand if we hove hover the history of consiousness and philosophy...I cannot explain it all here... Suffice to say that one of the main philosophical conditions to create a technological HUBRIS "progress" is nominalism.. Study what it is...NOMINALISM DESTROY PARTICIPATION... It is not vile nor noble , it is a subconscious spiritual incrementally unfolding movement from Aristotle to Ockham, an event which ask to be compensate CONSCIOUSLY to keep a spiritual equilibrium, a balance... Is it not simple to understand?

Why ?

Chinese people invented EVERYTHING to be invented BEFORE europeans till the 16 century... This is pure non debatable historical facts...Read Joseph Needham encyclopedia...

Why then China never produced the swift hubris "progress" linked with systematic powerful transformation of life and industry like in Europe? If you say that they were inferior in intelligence let me say to you that you are dead wrong...

I cannot explain all factors but i can pointed to this evident fact: a more BALANCED metaphysical EMBODIED relation with nature pervade all china culture ....Other powerful factors are linked to scripture and ideogrammatic versus alphabet language POWERFUL EFFECT ...I cannot enter in this here...

It is this balanced relation with nature that is destroyed by occidental industrialization in three centuries like described by Blake and many others... Look at the world around you......

Second point: If we cannot know what are precisely the effect of ONE technology in time , we know for sure were all technologies go RIGHT NOW: transhumanist cult of technology which consider the human animal WORKABLE not only economically, psychologically, and politically like Mandeville demonstrated but workable in his BODY...Genetic modifications for example...Read the interview with a scientist i posted above...destruction of natural agriculture, destruction of natural and human medecine, destruction of alimentation etc...CENTRALIZED AGRICULTURE’ ALIMENTATION, MEDECINE and Total control...

It is not Mandeville or William Blake who chase windmills it is you, blind to which is plain to see...I am flabbergasted by the complete ignorance of the soul, the body, the freedom, the dignity of nature, the complete forgetting and oversight of human participation to nature and the nature participation in your own body...

Third point: I am also glad about technology, i am not a luddite...My point is not to go back to cavern but to BREAK FREE OF THE CORPORATE CONTROL OF TECHNOLOGY ....

But Godddam who do you think control ALL technology on earth and for whose benefits?

You are the dude who chase the windmill created by the corporates sleepwalking publicities sorry...Not N. nor Blake nor Mandeville...

Calling Blake or Mandeville useless idiots, deluded one, chasing windmills only reveal the abyssal ignorance where you are complacent...Have you never be HUMBLED by geniuses? Any undertanding of any genius put us in a humble awareness... Only ignorant people consider themselves on par with genius...

Any true student is in constant AWE by genius...Saying that this one or this other one chase widmills means NOTHING....

Do you read news out of the official void and meaningless public journals ?

If my words seems rude think about the way you treat great men putting them aside without even knowing them and claiming to be right...

Ignorance is not an excuse, neurons may work without all information....

I am flabbergasted by the indifference and the complete lightness of some soul in the midst of one of this great world crisis and suffering...

 

School begins anew upon awakening in the morning.

N may have been the last of the romantics. There is a noble aspect in complete materialism in its philosophical definition. As to M and Blake they may be tilting at windmills. Impossible to know with certainty what any repercussions may be with any technology. I for one am glad for a bunch of technology, but concerned as to how the majority responds to all the images and data bombarding them from so many directions. Nature is a salve but does not address a root cause that may be impossible to define. A windmill.

Neither math nor poly.

School begins anew upon awakening in the morning.

N may have been the last of the romantics. There is a noble aspect in complete materialism in its philosophical definition. As to M and Blake they may be tilting at windmills. Impossible to know with certainty what any repercussions may be with any technology. I for one am glad for a bunch of technology, but concerned as to how the majority responds to all the images and data bombarding them from so many directions. Nature is a salve but does not address a root cause that may be impossible to define. A windmill.

Neither math nor poly.

First i apologize for my perhaps rude answer...I am too passionnate sometimes or to be honest most of the times... 😊

Second i am curious, why speaking about the spirit concept being bogus?

Third i thank you for your patience with me...

If you dont answer i will understand...

I wish you from my heart the best there is...

and also peace to you....

Merry Christmast

nolojunko

30 posts

12-24-2021 9:36pm

@mahgister

I’ve studied the subject for 30 years, my friend. And I don’t think I want to invest in another hundred hours of grad studies, so don’t expect me to "...go back to school..." any time soon. Merry Christmas, peace, brother.

@mahgister 

I've studied the subject for 30 years, my friend.  And I don't think I want to invest in another hundred hours of grad studies, so don't expect me to "...go back to school..." any time soon.   Merry Christmas, peace, brother.

 

Great post thanks!

Merry christmast..

The equipment itself is but a means to an end. Music has been part of our DNA for a very long time, perhaps from the beginning of rational thought. We hear music we dance and frolic moving with the waves and rhythms. Melodies elicit emotions in us. We become children again, we become lovers, we become fighters, all with music. Look at UFC fighters going to the ring. They puff out their chests and become emboldened. We go to battle or dance to the rythmic sounds of the drum. We float on air with music that speaks to us at a deep level. There is no rhyme or reason its just part of us, part of our common and individual spirit. I say that because i believe we are all ultimately part of one spirit. I think when most of us are drawn to this hobby, yes the gear tinkering to satisfy our inner creativity and builder, but ultimately we are chasing that music bliss.

 

I feel ‘spirit’ or spirituality doesn’t really depend on ‘leader’ or ‘follower’ persay. The divine exists in all of us, even those inclined to follow. A person may be a follower of one, and a leader of another. Being in touch with the divine part of ourselves and ‘connecting’ with the universal divinity or spiritual energy requires practice and conscious effort to become able to free ourselves. Jiddu Krishnamurti is profoundly insightful and Sadhguru takes those ideas and explains them compellingly.

There are definitely those that become addicted to gear. So for myself, its not about the gear so much, although i do take pride in my system, as does my son in his. The elusive goal is music reproduced to touch my soul and spirit

 

Eventually, you reach a point where it’s again just about the music, and the equipment is forgotten. Then you are on the road to healing.

I am not in complete disagrement about your take on N. What corrupt N. ethic was is belief in the Darwinism and atomistic materialism of his era....

But i will not go further about N. here...

But your remark about the "bogus spirit idea" say more about you than anything..

No serious thinker in all human history called the spirit a "bogus idea" save James Randi and Barnum the father of circus which are more comic book persona than thinkers... Than try to "think " a liitle bit more than repeating materialist Richard Dawkins TV mantra interview...

I am sorry to say this in a seemingly rude way, but there is many people here who dont like to be called consumers of "spirit bogus idea" ....

 All litterary, philosophical and scientific education point to the "spirit"...If you dont know that go back to school...But not in engineering school for sure....

N’s confused notions of anthropology certainly corrupt much of his moral conceptions (it’s a pretty poor foundation). That said (quite apart from the bogus Spirit idea), his general point as regards proper use of goods, entertainment, etc. can be helpful when finely filtered. In the end, N’s the last guy I’d read on ethics.

The OP dont used N. quote to recruit new disciple for N.

He quote it to illustrate by it the spiritual and CONCRETE experience of sound/music versus blind and deaf consumerism...

 

I add to that that my own experience was listenings experiments with physical acoustic and psycho-acoustic sciences not frantic upgrade of my gear each year......

Then criticizing N. without any notions of philosophical history is beside the point of this thread...And over the head of comic book consumers anyway sorry....

Try to think before posting one line meaningless trolling remark and prove us that you can ....

Nietzche? Really guys?. Come on man...

N's confused notions of anthropology certainly corrupt much of his moral conceptions (it's a pretty poor foundation).  That said (quite apart from the bogus Spirit idea), his general point as regards proper use of goods, entertainment, etc. can be helpful when finely filtered.  In the end, N's the last guy I'd read on ethics.

 

Nietzche?     Really guys?.    Come on man... 

20 years ago interview of an enlightened scientist whose worst fears are coming true in the world....

 

 

 

Interview, Richard Strohman, PhD.

[Interview conducted in 2000; Previously published at the original Truth Barrier, 2009.]

Q: My understanding is that Gene Therapy, as a field, suffered a crisis after the death of Jesse Gelsinger, but it’s gaining momentum again...

A: Yes. It’s quick to wash out. Our memory of these things is so readily overcome by the next news hype about the newest gene and the newest potential cure. The world is full of potential cures that never happen.

Q: You lecture on the misinterpretations of genetic medicine, is that right?

A: My perspective on this is a little bit wider. It’s my new career, looking at the limitations of genetic determinism, looking at the shortcomings of the science that I myself practiced for 30 years.

I did a lot of work in MS, which is a real genetic disease. My take on that is that there are genetic diseases. GT is in theory something to be looked at but at the same time we have to say that there isn’t a single case of any genetic therapy that has ever worked successfully. Not one.

Q: But the other side claims success in France and so on

A: I don’t know where the data is. In the newspapers? All those people at Penn were totally carried away by their own hype. There’s always, in these medical centers, a resident bio-ethicist who is completely a spinner, what he’s there for is to acknowledge the difficulties and then explain them away.

But these people assume that molecular genetics can actually do what is says it can do. They prepare us for what they think is inevitable. Then they grease the skids for all these things to go forward.

I was interviewed by Swedish TV about Gelsinger.

The broadcast criticism is that if you take a simple case, putting genes into plants, genetically engineered plants, where the testing can be done on large numbers without having to worry about ethics, what you see is: If you put the gene in with a viral vector and the vector is there because - and here we get back to our old friend Peter Duesberg - it’s a strong promoter, the gene of choice will be expressed at levels it’s never expressed in nature so... this faucet of gene expression that is always on for this protein that we’re talking about now is itself a totally abnormal phenomenon. Another problem. In the lab you see that the gene is turned on [to make the] plant resistant to the pesticide. In that narrow analysis of success you see that the gene transferred was successful, its incorporated into the host genome, its stable, it can be inherited, third you see that the protein that the gene encodes for is present, it’s expressed. The unnaturalness tends to disappear. The questions that are not asked are: What other side effects [are there] of this gene transfer? It’s like going into a room full of people and inserting an opinion that they’ve never heard before and expecting it to go down without reverberations. In New York City, say. It never happens. And it never happens in these cells either.

Monsanto knows that this is true. All these corporate agricultural technologies know what’s going on but they willfully - and here is the deep ethical problem that science has to deal with and [isn’t] - it willfully chooses the narrowest boundaries for the evaluation of success. That’s a criminal act. And I think the FDA buys it.

When you have to use these methods in the lab, and apply your criteria of success then take that same criteria of success and, apply it to the goods and services that come out of the lab and into thousands of acres of cropland or into young men in Philadelphia hospitals - those narrow criteria are overwhelmed by the realities of the real world. And that’s the criminal act that’s going on here and it’s totally carried along by the chutzpah of these scientists and their ignorance of complex biology. That’s the best you can say for them because a lot of them are aware of the measurements that could be made to check on all this but are too expensive to make.

These people don’t want the FDA to approve any labeling of these things. We have a lot to learn from genetically altered foods that we can take over into the very rare events of genetic modifications in humans.

There’s a whole raft of new biology of DNA that these people are not aware of. The liquidity and fluidity of the genome itself in this to the slightest environmental perturbation in the process of gene transfer changes everything.

It’s the machine metaphor in biology. Biology is dominated by a mechanistic point of view. And it’s one of the profound mistakes. Living things [laughs] are not machines. They may act like machines but they’re not.

The science, which we need to attribute some good to, is totally capitulated to corporate interests, and how do we get out of this? It’s really hard stuff.

Q: How can we trace this historically? Where does it start?

A: It all started when Barbara McClintock [in the 1940s and 1950s] showed that genes could be transferred horizontally between organisms, and even between species, but when the technology got better and better, it became clear that you could manipulate genes in the lab and transfer normal genes. We were part of this picture in MS, we had animal models and we could do very simple experiments in the lab and transfer normal genes into the cells with the mutation. That’s what fed this hype that you could cure whole human beings or whole organisms, you could do very interesting things with individual cells, but that’s in culture under limited conditions.

So, yeah there was a lot of excitement about all of that but it wasn’t well thought through. We didn’t know a lot that we knew five years later about the complexity of the genome and its ability to become destabilized when you did these things. You could get a positive effect from putting in a good gene but you weren’t able to measure what the other side of that coin was. What was the response to the cell, what would it be like if it was in a whole body, interacting with this enormous computational array of possibility.

That’s why the corporations don’t want to look at it because it’s so complex. The amount of money and effort that would have to be put into that denies the technology. You can’t afford it; you have to take these shortcuts.

[These things are] transcalculational.

The whole idea of the ability of the simplest living organism to resist our scientific interpretation in any complete way I think is well accepted.

These are interactions that reach what’s called a catastrophe of computation. The computer people say that there is no computer that could make the calculation and there never will be such a computer.

Q: But GT depends on that not being the case right?

A: Right, there are two things. First, you shouldn’t expect that we could compute the organism from the genome, because the organism doesn’t compute the organism from the genome.

The organism computes itself from a vast array of data including genetic data. The idea of the success of GT is that you put a single gene in there and that it will be expressed and that the insertion and the accommodation to the insertion will be normal in all other respects. That’s an assumption. That’s a huge assumption

Q: But that’s what the whole thing is riding on.

A: That’s what the whole thing is riding on! And they’re avoiding all of the other [aspects.]

The only breakthrough I’ve seen, it was the last issue on the west coast last week’s issue AAA, their committee on germ line therapy has issued a report in which they say it’s too dangerous, should not be done with eggs and cells. Too many things that we do not know about and maybe cannot know.

The transfer of genes in such a way that they cannot be inherited.

Gene transfer should not be done in germ line cells, in eggs and sperm. This is the first time that the committee has given some signs of constraint to the corporate interests that they have to slow down. That the researchers must slow down

Q: Why was their alarm limited to gene line therapy?

A: That’s a good question. I don’t know.

If you understand what the assumption is that’s being made — there is no proper scientific response to that. There is no way that they can say, "Don’t worry about it, we’ll fix it."

If you get them that far, you say: "You mean to say you really don’t know what you’re doing?"

They don’t know what they’re doing.

They got into this idea that what we need to know is that there are gene programs that are responsible for the more complex traits of human beings and other organisms, and that if we really could understand totally the human genome, if we could know what it was in some sort of a printout, then all of a sudden somehow in the picture itself we would get some kind of illumination. It was almost like some kind of a religious experience was expected here. Some epiphany would come once this picture was published. Ten years ago we were all yawning at that, or most of us were anyway, but not in the ranks, not in the training of young people, these molecular laboratories went right ahead with this whole notion of somehow everything would be understood and wait and see and don’t sell science short this and what it’s all about waiting and blah blah blah and that was it, and its still it, and these guys are out there with their big computers and they don’t understand the limits the way physicists do. And the physicists seem to be remaining silent on all this, you’ve noticed. So the HGP [Human Genome Project] is now desperately looking for a way to explain what it’s going to do with the data that it’s got and it’s an oncoming embarrassment that is almost at the level of the HIV/AIDS phenomenon. These people do not know how to go from the genome to the organism, period. They can’t do anything and the reason they can’t do anything is the reason that Tom Kuhn spelled out: If you’ve got a paradigm that’s losing steam you can’t turn it in for a new one until the new one is up and running. We don’t have a new paradigm up and running and we’re stuck with this and it’s very hard to work your way out.

Given the power and money of the corporate interests, this thing is going to play itself out. It all comes together around the applications. The HGP [Human Gene Project] is funded — and it was funded from the very beginning — in order to cure human diseases and to provide the wherewithal to increase life expectancy.

Japanese are going to live to be 90 soon, genes aren’t even mentioned.

This is another problem: Life expectancy has nothing to do with genetics.

The excitement came because there was a time fifteen years ago, in the ranks of biologists that clung to the view that there was something called "gene programs."

The only thing left open to them is this GT, using the fruits of the HGP and using molecular tools to feed this hype that’s trying to become a major industry. It’s servicing basic research.

They simply didn’t anticipate this reality. Well, they did but...they decided to overlook their worries. There were other patients who showed signs of sensitivity. There were some warning lights flashing there. What killed Jesse Gelsinger was this insistence on the narrow focus of accounting in the lab.

They don’t know what happened.

They don’t know what happened!

There are lots of reports about all kinds of things that can happen when you put foreign DNA into a cell but they’re all disregarded. There are papers showing the bizarre things that happen when you take cells in culture and put DNA into them and put them into an animal.

Q: What kinds of things?

A: Cells become sensitive, they exhibit a hypersensitivity response, any DNA sequence as small as 25 or so base pairs will generate really unpredictable reactions on the parts of the cells. The simple act of putting cells in culture in order to do this manipulation created genetic instabilities, which are inherited. This is seen very clearly in plant cells. The idea that you’re not generating with the experiment is the huge amount of variability about which you know nothing is... you overlook that at great danger to everybody.

Q: An industry gets born out of some moment of eureka, surely?

A: Right.

Q: How can we explain why they thought this would work?

A: It’s so simple, it’s like the HIV thing, you just can’t believe it.

They were doing all their experiments under controlled conditions in the lab which made them work, you could see the results. Everything changed in a way that was predictable. Of course what they didn’t show you was the stuff that happened that wasn’t predictable. But that’s all data thrown in the ash can. And you continue to do the experiments in different ways until you find the way that gives you the answer you want.

Q: Then the gravy train got rolling?

A: Right. In days gone by, science might have worked this out but its been so captured by these relationships with corporate means and the rush to force things from the laboratory to the marketplace that created all this. So the [true] method of science is an old one.

We never had this incessant urging [in the past] to produce something useful — what that means is profitable. And under those circumstances everybody is caught up in it. Everybody is caught up in it, grants, millions of dollars flowing into laboratories, careers are made.

Q: Didn’t the gene therapy hype come via AIDS via cancer?

A: Oh yeah, everything is due to genes, whether it’s a human gene, normal gene, or a viral gene. All causality starts with the gene.

Q: And where did that belief come from?

A: That comes, my dear from, Gregor Mendel. A straight line and a straight simple line its absurdly, grotesquely simple. Going from Mendel to medical centers is the most absurd thing in the world.

Q: Why?

A: Because Mendel described very simple traits in plants.

This is what I published one year ago, the data is that there are these diseases in humans to which you can ascribe a single gene causality, and for which you can have some hope of doing something. But if you looked in the world almanac for the extent to which any one of these genetic diseases or all of these genetic diseases combined come into play in looking at life expectancy or mortality rates they aren’t there. There are thousands of genetic diseases but they only amount to less than 2% of our disease load. Now you’re taking that same logic which has been fruitless and you’re going to apply it to the complex diseases, now we’re talking about heart disease and cancer, and it’s totally strange — it’s weird and terrible science. Anybody who says it’s not going to fly is a Luddite and anti-intellectual and anti-scientific.

They think they’re doing science for science’s sake. They think if their work leads us into the tunnel of obscurity then they’re going to find their way out and they’re going to find the light and so forth. The question is, what do we do in the real world while we’re waiting for everybody to figure out where the light is? That’s another ethical question that science doesn’t have any answers for and we have to look at this from the point of view of giving science some guidelines and that’s also resisted mightily. That’s like a denial of a first amendment or something. I call it an invitation of the devil, this technology.
One of the most destructive phenomena in the history of the world.

Tape #2

Q: The paradigm that we’re in now is called what?

A: The machine model of biology. That life is a machine and the elements of the machine are genes and proteins, and that we can reduce the machine to its parts. The idea that we can control life.

Q: And what paradigm did that replace?

A: That’s an interesting question. There was never a monolithic paradigm other than evolution, which is coming under a lot of criticism these days. We’re in a state of revolution now I think. Lilly Kay at MIT wrote a book about this a few years ago.

Went through the archives at...50, 60 years ago there was a pluralism in the life sciences, we could have an evolutionary paradigm, or a holistic paradigm... but the powers that be.. even before WW2 decided that the direction we were going to go in was going to be molecular biology and a deterministic pathway. That life was controlled by these structures that we could get a handle on and therefore we could control life in that way.

Whether they were Machiavellian enough to say ’well that’s how we could all make a bundle’ I do now know. But [in the past] there was a pluralism there in science, and many different directions, [that’s gone.] Today, unless it’s genetics, it ain’t science in biology. That’s what happened. It’s reflected in the changing structure of the university. Fifty years ago we had organisms- we had zoology, botany. In most of the larger universities these departments have been phased out. I used to be the chairman of the zoology department; now its gone. I call it the intellectual urban renewal program, they tore down the neighborhoods and put up all these high rises and nobody talks to one another.

All these directions of research may still be there but they’re still dancing to the same tune. The old metaphysical ideas, that life was only partially materialistic and that something called a vital force was required to fully explain life... It was obfuscatory in many ways, biology struggled to free itself from that for a long time when Mendel came along with inherited particles. In the early part of the 20th century we began to put Mendel’s conceptual particles together with things called chromosomes and then genes, in a way which enabled that whole structure of biology to relay itself to the big cosmological question of evolution. That was the end of any kind of soft-headedness. A full-throttle shift into materialism and determinism.

Dick Rowan said in one of his NY Review Of Books pieces: "You have to understand that modern biology is materialistic. We have a prior commitment to materialism. And we’re not going to let God get his foot back in the door."

In the name of not letting God get back in the door we’re not facing reality. What you might think of as mystical is simply something that other people call complexity and complexity is scientific, it just doesn’t coincide with this linear thinking that characterizes most of genetics.

Epigenesis is everything about the genome that is not the gene. It’s an old word. The modern form of epigenesis is the scientific finding that is not talked about by these corporations... if you perturb a cell in culture, the genome will respond to that change in very specific ways, part of a cell’s response to stimuli, many things will change in the way genes are expressed. Genes that were silent before you gave it a stimulus are now caused to express themselves in a pattern that is different from the one you had just been using. And not only that, genes will be marked by chemical pathways that we know about now but don’t understand the pattern.

You change the organizational structures of the genes without changing the genes themselves, because that would be heretical - if you could change the genes other than by random mutation.

All these complicated changes [occur] in the genome exposure of the cell to any number of stimuli, certainly the intervention with foreign DNA. Genes make proteins, proteins interact with one another. They form networks and those networks take on a life of their own. They have a logic that isn’t found in the genome. The come only in the real world of expression. Epigenetic phenomenon, the [immense] complexity is nowhere to be seen in this corporate thrust to cure everything by intervention.

Q: What do you worry about? What is the most dangerous scenario at the end of this road?

A: I worry that we’re going to contaminate the entire planet with genetically modified plants. And that this will be irreversible. And we haven’t even got the slightest idea what might happen here.

The chief CEO of Sun Microsystems Bill Joy had a big piece in Wired, in march of this year. Bill Joy is calling for a slowdown in technology. The co-founder of Sun Microsystems. You know what he’s afraid of? He’s afraid that what we’re going to do... this is already part of this whole business of genetic manipulation of humans, embryos... Joy is afraid we’re going to start making hybrids, between human beings and nanotechnology circuits made in place like Sun Microsystems, and that these hybrids will take over. This is the director, talking seriously. This is a serious guy. And we biologists...I’m worried that before we make the robots we will already have created the conditions that will demand the robots because there won’t be anything called agriculture left anymore.

[Mentions a newsletter about technocratic eugenics.]

Q: Is it the potential loss of organic life on earth?

A: Yes.

Q: What worries you most when you think about so-called Gene Therapy?

A: My worry there was the worry expressed by William Blake:

’What seems to be is, to those to whom it seems to be and is productive of the most dreadful consequences to those to whom it seems to be.’

If we think that the world of organisms is a world of machines, we will begin to treat each other as machines. That is the huge danger of this whole mechanistic model of organisms. That’s this terrible nightmare coming true.

I apologize if i misread you...femoore12

If science is the altar of living experiences...

Spiritual life is the material itself composing this altar...

Science without a spiritual life go nowhere save to death....

Science has nothing to do with robot programming, which is only a technology nothing more...

Science is an ethical mind-set toward understanding the phenomena without perturbating them TOO MUCH and especially without killing them ...

The only people who would contradict that are the monstruous corporations enslaving science in the name of power and greed...

Blake called the technology of the british industrial age satanic, not because he was against technology or science, but because of the way the power to be used sciences and technology to enslave mankind... It is not conspiracy it is PLAIN history...

The history only repeat today in a monstruous way way more hoorible than in Blake Times ...

I am optimist though because i see an incoming awakening around the world...

 

If someone dont see miracles and moving mysteries in sound and music like in light and colors , he is blind and deaf, and know nothing about sciences...

Science is the altar of living experience...

Not a chain of dogmas based on conditioning of the mind set , a dead end, which is way worst than children faith which is a golden beginning ....

My greatest discovery here for the last 2 years was acoustic and psycho acoustic experience...This changed my life as a music lover...Any acoustic treatise is way more than a cooking book recipe  it is an invitation through experiments to experience  miraculous transformation of ourselves  through our own hearing experiments...

 

Your kind words really moved me in my isolated Christmast...

I wish you the best with my prayer and heart....

And to you, @mahgister I think that is a very astute comment you made ... and I thank you for your wisdom and insight.

Imagination is more powerful than anything real?

Why?

Because our own imagination is the mother of OUR reality... Without a father this mother deliver only half-dead monsters haunting her and created only by his uncontrolled dreams...

Guess who is the father?

Call it unity, God, love, spirit, the tao, the name dont matter because to deliver a children we need a mother AND a father....The names matter not....

 

By the way for my fellow english reader who love freedom...No spirit is so great and free than William Blake who contrary to Niesztche never fall for a science and technology without a soul...He was wise among the wisest and his prophecies and mythological poems are WARNING in the midst of the Great-Britain industrial age and Empire and technology of enslavement using Mandeville recipe book...Blake wrote ONLY  one prophecy about the destruction of mankind and of the soul...I cannot say how i love William Blake ... A true seer, poet and an artist engraver  impossible to forgot, the greatest engraver after Dûrer, and a genius akin to Old testament prophets...English people produced many giants, Blake is not the shortest of those...

"If we think that the world of organisms is a world of machines, we will begin to treat each other as machines. That is the huge danger of this whole mechanistic model of organisms. That's this terrible nightmare coming true. My worry there was the worry expressed by William Blake: 'What seems to be is, to those to whom it seems to be and is productive of the most dreadful consequences to those to whom it seems to be.' "
- Richard Strohman, PhD