I am not an audiophile but I recently acquired a really nice high end system for free. (AR LS16 preamp, Madrigal Proceed HPA2 amp, Arcam CD92 CD player, Aerial Acoustics 7B tower speakers. I have been learning as much as I can over the last week since I got it.
Now I'm trying to figure out how to put together a decent but not necessarily high end digital input system for as little money as possible.
So here is my plan. I know it is not high end and probably not commensurate with my system but hopefully will meet my needs:
Old iMac using iTunes to manage flac or alac files plugged into Schiit Modi 2 via USB cable and then into preamp via USB cable. I can us Apple's remote app on my iPhone to select/play music remotely (Works great).
Does this sound reasonable? If so it will only cost me about $100 for the Schiit DAC and $25 for a decent set of RCA cables (already purchased) and whatever I might need to spend on the USB cable. Anything I should know about the USB cable for this?
Thanks for the advice and apologies for my ignorance in all of this.
I really suggest you spring for the MultiBit version at $249. To me the upgrade to MultiBit (on my Bifrost) was huge and was the first time I actually enjoyed listening to digital music.
Schiit also sells a USB cable for $20, or you could buy a used one here.
So why not iTunes? I'm not defending it and don't like it very much, I'm just curious. I've read articles where other audiophiles use it when it is set up properly (not to mess with the files) and apparently the USB bypasses the computer's sound card. Can anyone explain (in simple terms)?
This old iMac will also not run the latest OS and not sure the recommended apps will run on it.
Also, keep in mind, I'm not a audiophile yet and to be honest the regular iTunes files run through the RCA to 3.5mm jack sound decent to me. Alac files sound even better by the same route....so maybe I would notice? I don't know.
When I first tested out computer audio I used an old MacBook computer and played files through iTunes using Audirvana as the front end. Hooked up a USB cable to my USB DAC and then connected the DAC to the preamp. It worked just fine. I have since found a better way to do this that has resulted in much better sound quality, but if you are just starting out this is probably one of the easiest and least expensive ways to get going. As time goes on and funds allow you can upgrade.
Audirvana is another good choice. When you use Amarra or Audirvana with iTunes, they do not use the iTunes playback engine. They only use iTunes for track selection and playlist construction.
In simple terms, these other players sound better, better focus, imaging and liveness.
I see. Unfortunately neither Amarra or Audirvana will run on this old iMac so it seems either it or they are out of the picture and I guess I'm back to square one. I'll check with some of the other apps mentioned here. Or maybe I'll just try it the way I said just to see what it sounds like. If I don't like the SQ I will not have lost more than $100 in the low end DAC.
I recently set up a NAS—network associated server-and am currently burning CDs to it. I added dbpoweramp to burn the CDs. I compared one CD that I had ripped in iTunes to the same ripped with dbpoweramp and it wasn’t a subtle difference. The dbpoweramp rip was so much more alive with presence and impact. It was like everything else in Audio—the iTunes sounded fine until you discover what you are missing. Dbpoweramp is also better at finding metadata. I use Audirvana Plus for playback. The 2 programs together cost about $150 and IMO justify the expense, but you sound as though the budget might be tight, and you would definitely need a new computer. You may just want to stick with iTunes and get an accessory hard drive for now, and if you can, save the CDs and re rip them later when you can afford to upgrade, or after spending some time investigating what works for you. Alternatives to consider are streaming services, such as Tidal, or dispensing with the Computer and dealing with an audio component customized for digital playback and/or ripping
Thanks guys. I think I'l check on Bitperfect. I'll also see how far I can upgrade the OS on the old iMac. I was really hoping to find a use for it.
Given the recommendations above I'd be into this for close $500 (which is not bad all things considered) but I'm still not sure how deep I want to dive into this hobby. I think in the meantime I will work on my CD collection. I know that is 'old tech' these days but I already have a good CD player and CDs sound awesome on this system already without me spending a penny.
Just ordered Dark Side of the Moon and Aja CDs to replace my iTunes versions.
If I decide to put together a digital system I can always rip these CDs later.
+1 clio09. Start out using itunes then consider other playback programs. Rip your CDs as AIFF files. Buy the little Schiit DAC you proposed, a Belden Gold USB cable, and a pair of Audioquest Evergreen interconnects used, no longer than needed. The DAC will serve streaming as well.
Another dumb question: How do I get streaming from my computer into the pre-amp? Would this also require a DAC?
The Shiit DAC would work. I you got one of the microrendu devices from Sonore, you can go from Ethernet to USB to the Shiit DAC.
Then you can use Ethernet/WIFI from your computer to your Router and Ethernet to the Rendu. Then USB cable from Rendu to the DAC. This will allow you to use apps like Amazon Prime music, Linn Kazoo or Roon/Tidal to drive the DAC. Most audiophiles use Roon/Tidal.
Okay, so I'm testing the waters. Trying to tell what's going to be real and important to me and what isn't.
So, I brought the old iMac down and ripped Synchronicity by the Police into it using the computer's CD drive. AIFF file. Then played it back through the headphone jack with a 'y' cable (a good one) and it just did not sound good. Put the actual CD into the CD player and compared them back and forth. The difference is huge. Of course.
I know I'm comparing worst case vs best case but it does tell me.....I think... that there is no sense spending time and money running stuff through iTunes and a headphone jack.
I might try to upgrade the OS on the iMac to where it will run Bitperfect through the Schiit DAC. I realize that is still low end....but it will have to be better than what I just heard.
@n80 know I’m being pedantic, but technically CDs are “digital”. A CD player is actually a very specialized computer, optimized to extract digital information from spinning disc, and then convert those 0s and 1s into analog sound, and feed that analog signal into a preamp. Some have additional functionality, in that their DACs can be accessed by other digital sources, or can send their own digital feed into another DAC, but it’s all digital, regardless. CDs may be “old school “ but that doesn’t make them inferior. In fact, after trying the Mac&DAC route, or using a dedicated music server such as Bluesound, I am realizing that most digital replay is at best, equal to be the best CD players, and frequently not up to that standard. If you are happy with your current CD setup, it may not be wise to go down the road that you have embarked upon. After all, there has never been a better time to collect CDs, as the major labels are dumping their back catalogs at bargain basement prices, and frequently in newly remastered versions to boot
mahler, don't worry about being pedantic. I do know that CD's are digital (and that apparently my old Arcam player has a 'good' DAC) but otherwise all of this gets very confusing for someone new to it all.
And you may be right about not going down this rabbit hole. But there is an appeal to libraries of music, playlists, etc, right at your fingertips. But I agree, pursuing that appeal at a high level is probably beyond the limited budget I have for this hobby. I will probably spend the rest of it on CDs.
I think one audiophile trait that I have is that I do like to dabble and fiddle with stuff. I've got to put a lid on that. ;-)
n80, When the 'y' cable was plugged into the headphone jack, how was the Mac wired into your system?
I'm going to assume you checked System Preferences/Sound/ Output and it was set to Optical Digital Out Port. I use this method and audio files sound fine.
lowrider, I don't know if you're making a wrong assumption about how ignorant I am about all this or a correct assumption about how gullible I am because I cannot find a setting for Optical Digital Out Port on my MacBook Pro (10 years old) or the old iMac (12 years old). But you did make me look. ;-)
Why go through all this trouble? A Bluesound streaming device like Node2 or Node100 - on sale for $199, will give you access to huge libraries of music right at your fingertips. It will even make your tuner obsolete by allowing you to listen to (internet) radio from all over the world. Take a look. It could be exactly what you need.
Thanks. I will consider that as well but the question (because I'm new to this) remains, how does one of these interface with the pre-amp and how can I control it remotely? (Of course I can and will research this myself.)
n80, if your Mac is running OS 10.4 to about 10.6 you will see the Optical Digital Out Port setting in System Preferences/Sound as soon as the Y-cord is inserted into the headphone jack. Otherwise, Preferences/Sound will display Internal Speakers.
May I ask why you are changing to optical output when you already have the USB setup from the Mac?
I'll jump on the bandwagon and suggest getting a streamer as well. But if you have many audio files ripped, you will still want to access your iMac.
@n80 Bluesound Node has analog and digital outs. If you prefer to use the included DAC, then connect the analog outputs to your pre amp. If you wish to use another DAC, then connect the digital outputs of the Node2 to the digital inputs of the DAC. Some preamps now come with a DAC included, which makes these generic explanations less clear...
"n80, if your Mac is running OS 10.4 to about 10.6 you will see the Optical Digital Out Port setting in System Preferences/Sound as soon as the Y-cord is inserted into the headphone jack. Otherwise, Preferences/Sound will display Internal Speakers."
I think you must be yanking my chain now. It does change from internal speakers to headphone but nothing there but balance and volume. that's with 10.6 and 10.8.
Are you using a 1/8-inch stereo mini-phono plug adapter? This plugs into the headphone jack and the Mac will recognise if you are using headphones or a digital interface.
You only use the Mac volume if using headphones. For digital output, the preamp in your system controls volume.
Okay, I get it all the way up to the point that I plug the Toslink cable into the pre-amp. My pre-amp is an AR LS16 tube model. The only input is XLR or RCA. Does a DAC need to go in between?
Don't feel like you have to coach me through this. I know I'm hopelessly ignorant in all this. I can continue to do the necessary leg work.
I can give you a simplified explanation and let others who are more familiar with computer audio chime in, but I know the USB interface carries’s a 5V power signal along with the data. Since the power is traveling down the same cable as the all important data, noise can be introduced into the data stream (the music). There are devices used to clean up the noise, one is known as a "decrapifier," and the end result is cleaner data to be used when imported to the audio components. There is also the issue of "jitter" which is the timing of the digital stream travelling from point A to point B. That’s why a DAC needs an internal or external clock device to correct the timing of the data stream. Basically, computers and analogue music systems are not a perfect fit.
TOSLINK is an interface that was designed for AV transmission, while USB was designed for data use (not audio). It is a light source carrying the signal thru fiber optic strands encased in a cable. The highest quality cable which is recommended for audio use is a glass fiber cable. This provides the cleanest signal. I believe one of the benefits of optical is there are no problems with grounding issues as found in other formats.
There is a downside to Toslink in that it doesn’t have the bandwidth to carry DSD audio, but can transmit hires PCM.
I recommend searching the Audiogon archives for info about both interfaces. USB is more popular, especially since technological advances have made it suited to use in high quality audio systems.
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