Anyone here have any experience with E.A.T. E-Glo S or E-Glo Petit phono stages?
New Gold Note PH 10
I had posted a question a while ago about hearing from anyone with experience comparing the Gold Note PH 10 vs. the Bryston BP2 or Clear Audio Smart V2 phono preamps. I never heard anything back about this subject, so I decided to just simply purchase a new PH 10 and compare it against my Clear Audio preamp.
First impressions: As much as I love my Clear Audio Smart V2 and in particular its sound stage and imaging qualities, I have to say that the PH 10 was considerably better at detail and picking out the instruments, especially the low and mid range ones. The Clear Audio seemed to be a little better at the upper end imaging and the sound stage. But keep in mind this was with the PH 10 new right out of the box.
I was told the PH 10 needs at least 50 hours of run in time to open up, so I used it for two nights and left it on for several days. After allowing it to settle in and enjoying a lot of music, I still thought the Clear Audio had a leg up on it in the sound stage/imaging department. So I decided to listen to a well known record to me with excellent recording and a lot of dynamic range on the PH 10, then switch the wires over to the Clear Audio (which I had not heard in several days by this time), and replay the record. YIKES!!! it was like a blanket was draped over my speakers. I had become so gradually accustomed to the new PH 10 that I had not noticed the slight changes going on with the break in. When the Clear Audio was swapped back into the system (it took me about a minute to do this), it was night and day the differences.
The PH 10 was by far a much more detailed, pronounced signature with a superior sound stage and the imaging was hands down better. I am using it with the Audio Technica AT20ss vintage MM cartridge which has an extraordinary frequency range of 5-50K hz, so I was able to take advantage of the Enhanced RIAA curve the PH 10 has. It is pretty outstanding. Make sure you break things in! I love this phono preamp.
First impressions: As much as I love my Clear Audio Smart V2 and in particular its sound stage and imaging qualities, I have to say that the PH 10 was considerably better at detail and picking out the instruments, especially the low and mid range ones. The Clear Audio seemed to be a little better at the upper end imaging and the sound stage. But keep in mind this was with the PH 10 new right out of the box.
I was told the PH 10 needs at least 50 hours of run in time to open up, so I used it for two nights and left it on for several days. After allowing it to settle in and enjoying a lot of music, I still thought the Clear Audio had a leg up on it in the sound stage/imaging department. So I decided to listen to a well known record to me with excellent recording and a lot of dynamic range on the PH 10, then switch the wires over to the Clear Audio (which I had not heard in several days by this time), and replay the record. YIKES!!! it was like a blanket was draped over my speakers. I had become so gradually accustomed to the new PH 10 that I had not noticed the slight changes going on with the break in. When the Clear Audio was swapped back into the system (it took me about a minute to do this), it was night and day the differences.
The PH 10 was by far a much more detailed, pronounced signature with a superior sound stage and the imaging was hands down better. I am using it with the Audio Technica AT20ss vintage MM cartridge which has an extraordinary frequency range of 5-50K hz, so I was able to take advantage of the Enhanced RIAA curve the PH 10 has. It is pretty outstanding. Make sure you break things in! I love this phono preamp.
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That is exactly why I deferred to my friend John who has owned countless phono stages, its his hobby to rotate in/out of various designs. He was the one who chimed in with me early on about the PH 10 which he owns. We exchanged thoughts on it and his observations were in line with mine, it was just OK, not great. Nice mid range audio, but the low end and upper end lacked and the sound staging was very so so. He pushed me to Whest phono stages as he told me the Titan Pro was the finest phono stage he had ever experienced, hands down. I was not going to pay upwards of $13K for one, so I got into the mid range units which are very similar to the Titan and that was enough for me. Now I am thinking that I just have to have a Titan Pro before I lose my hearing just so that I can say that I had one (much like flying a P-51, I do plan on that at some point before I cannot fly any longer and I am kicking myself for having turned down the opportunity once before due to the cost of the fuel at the time). :) |
My fingers are fine:) There are better phono stages for much higher price, but very few can offer two MM/MC input for two tonearms connected at the same time to one phono stage. Gold Note is a complicated design. On the other hand the 47 Labs Phono Cube is very simple current-injection phono stage designed for low impedance MC only, this is real killer, no adjustments. Also superb design. |
Granted, typical Italian design and they do a very nice job as always (have you sliced your fingers yet on the overly sharp vent cuts on the case? I did every-time I handled it). But the performance doesn't really come close to the either of the Whest units I have/had. I sold my Whest Three Signature and now have my wonderful custom 'trimmed' PS 30 RDT SE 2019. I will say that I do like the case work on the Whest too, it's not as fancy as the PH10, but it is a very understated pleasing piece. |
lalitk, I have now been living with my second Whest, the PS 30 RDT SE 2019 with many of the PS 40 RDT upgrades modified into it for over a year. I would strongly suggest that you look at the Whest line, whether it is an upper level unit like mine or a more mid range preamp such as the Whest Three or Two. In my opinion, there is no contest against the PH10. That is my input and I hope it helps. My Whest Three I had prior the PS30 was a wonderful piece and that would be a great choice if spending a lot more is not an option. |
@chakster, Knock Knock! I am considering the PH-10/PSU-10. This thread has been very insightful. I have also sent an email to Gold Note about Class A tube output stage for PH-10. They got one for their reference PH-1000. https://www.goldnote.it/hi-fi-electronics/tube-1012-1006/ |
No matter what cartridge you're using with Gold Note phono stage, i don't think people change loading for each record, this is crazy! What you can change is RIAA for certain pressings, this is Gold Note exclusive. Why do you want someone else to tell you "what is the best" settings, it's a personal thing, system dependent. Most cartridges (MC) are great with 47k Ohm loading (unloading), you can try this. |
Ah lohanimal, thanks for the update. I am not familiar with your particular Whest, so I assumed it was the single chassis version. I must say that I have spent quite a bit of time reading the customer reviews on the Whest Audio site and that has been enlightening. There are hundreds of reviews in which each the buyer compares whatever version Whest they have purchased against another phono stage they have been using. It's interesting to read how each person gives defined opinion on the differences. |
@slimpikin - you're confused with the Whest 0.20 and the whest two. Mine is their first 2 box phono stage. The two is actually a lower model. James Henriot is a very nice guy - very very knowledgable. Part of the reason you never see reviews is due to the Stereophile debacle when Micheal Fremer said the Ps 0.2 bettered his Manley Steelhead and had shades of the Boulder about it - realising that his mates at Manley had their noses put out of joint he made a disparaging review comparing it to a Graham Slee. Trust me i've heard the Manley, and the Graham Slee in question - his original review was the truth. The Whest is exceptionally fast and 3d in sound with real solidity. It comes about by an all discrete circuit - it's not an IC design like the Tom Evans Groove which was an exhausting listen in my system. My only gripe with the Whest is that it doesn't have a version/option for multiple inputs. |
@lohanimal The PS.02 from what I have read is a really nice entry level unit from Whest. It is probably similar to the Whest Three only it has a one box approach vs. the dual chassis design of the Three. I know that with each step up in the Whest line, you get a corresponding increase in detail and response. The Three is definitely a step up from the PS.02, but when you get into the realm of a late version PS.30 RDT SE or even higher, such as the PS.40 RDT, things really take on another level of incredible detail, response and amazing realism. If you ever have the opportunity and stumble upon one of these preamps, you should bring it in to try against what you are currently using. |
@lewm and @slimpikins5I actually have their original phone stage - the ps.02 It's good to know that other people have heard the same things I did when I bought mine - perhaps more so than now with the later models. It's a crying shame that Whest don't do a multi-input/multi EQ stage. I did a review about 15 years ago and compared it to several other stages around £2000 and it bettered the competition which included the Tom Evans Groove. All said and done I prefer my Vendetta SCP2a - it's just more compelling and - dare i say it - chocolatey |
The Gold Note PSU-10 is not $1100 if you know where to buy it, directly from Italy (for non EU buyers) it’s just $740 (660 Euro) brand new and last summer it was even cheaper ! This is how i bought mine and i do not think it was a waste of money. This is obsious an improvement for fair price for such a nice power supply. But i would never buy it for $1k, again i paid about $700 including shipping from Italy for a brand new PSU-10 in the box. The Gold Note is not noisy at all, even without external power supply. |
@slimpikins5 if I was the dealer you were referring to yes originally I told customers that the PSU-10 at $1100 retail was a LOT of $$$ and IMO was not worth the asking price, better to spend on more records, again IMHO. We have now sold 9 of these power supplies (at well below 1k) and every customer thinks they are worth the price. As regards of noisy PH-10's we only had one customer that had an issue with noise, it was an early PH-10. We sent it back to Italy and they updated some op amps and the customer is now a happy camper and then bought the matching PSU-10. (Dealer disclaimer) |
When I had my PH10, I spoke with a local dealer about potentially ordering the external power supply for it. He told me that it didn't make much difference in the performance and suggested that I not spend the money. He also said that the Gold Note units he has sold do seem to have issues with noise; not all of them, but some. My unit was noisy to me, but that could well have just been how it matched in with my system and may not have been the case with another system. I didn't realize how much noise it had until I installed the Whest Three SE, which is super quiet. Two nights ago my brother came in for a visit. He is a video producer/engineer and is pretty astute. He was here a few months ago when I had the PH10 and we spent a few days of listening to a large and varied selection of music. I told him about the new Whest and he was anxious to listen to it. After one high dynamic range record, he just shook his head, smiled and said hands down, absolutely no comparison the whest just blows the PH10 out of the water... he was amazed at how unbelievable the system sounded. |
Ideally, the input impedance for a "current driven" phono stage would indeed be zero ohms, but that is impossible to achieve in the real world (because the signal voltage would be completely lost to ground). As a result, most present at least a 2-ohm impedance. Some tube versions present 10-12 ohms. I've been curious to try one. Do you guys notice how every year or two there is a new fad in phono stage design? First it was LCR. Then it was LR (very rare examples). Lately it's been "current drive". |
The Gold Note PSU does not improved the bass, the rest of this phono stage is beautiful, except for the lack of deep bass response. But almost any phono stage i have heard does not reproduce the bass as good as my WLM phono stage. Each phono stage i have purchaced over the years gave me all required settings "on the fly" for any cartridge (MM or MC), but each time i’m using WLM i hear what i’m missing in low register. At the moment WLM is a champ in bass. My Miyabi MCA (LOMC) is the most organic and the most interesting MC cartridge i have owned, it’s definitely on the warmer side, the imaging is holographic and the silky deep bass is oustanding with WLM phono stage. Maybe this is all i need. I decieed to pass on the caps upgrade, i did not realised how big is the size of each cap until i got them by post (almost like a beer can) so i returned them. But i have replaced all load resistors on my WLM, those naked foil vishay load resistors from texas components are oustanding. At the moment nothing can beat the Miyabi MCA on Lustre GST-801 connected to WLM Phonata Reference. P.S. thinking about Miyabi i remember 47 Labs current injection phono stage 4712 (input impedance is ZERO Ohms), i’d like to try it with my Miyabi. I think @pani owned 47 Labs Cube. Actually my Miyabi MCA was made by Takeda-San prior to Miyabi 47. |
Uber, I think that ("wasting" a grand) every time I buy something audio-related, because I already have SOOOO much stuff here. (For example, I just spent slightly upwards of a grand on yet another vintage phono cartridge, when I already have 3-4 potentially superb NOS cartridges still to be auditioned.) Then the feeling goes away until next time. I try to tell myself I will sell something in order to make up the difference, but I am too lazy ever to carry through on that thought. |
Lewm Just to clarify. I would say I am and have been very happy with my ph10 but you know how audio is, always truly something might be better synergy. Reading this thread latest posts and having heard only good about Whest just got me thinking. Would be nice to have both to compare but that is not likely to happen. I have to say the ph10 sounds really sweet with the Nagaoka mp150 on the Notts TT, I prefer that combo right now to either of the higher dollar MC carts I have to hand, Scheu SL and Ortofon Cadenza Black. Just loathe to potential waste a grand as would never recover that for sure. |
Slim, thank you for your detailed explanation of the whest phono product line. When you first used the numeric designation 40, I thought you had simply mistyped “30”, because I was unaware of the latest update. I can understand that if you have dual mono chassis’ as in the upper end of the whest product line, you would not necessarily need to have a power supply on a separate chassis, which would give you at least three or up to four chassis’ to contend with. If you recall, the Einstein phono stages work that way, and I don’t know how people find the shelf space for the balanced version. Uber, I would say that you may well be happy, that is happier, with the outboard power supply on your gold note. I can conceive that would make a big difference. In fact I wondered whether slim was using the outboard power supply with his Gold Note.On the other hand, if there is something fundamentally about the sound quality that bugs you, that may not be cured by the outboard supply, and in that case you would be better off moving on. Now that I know that the gold note has 220 pF of capacitance at its input, different peoples impression of the SQ could well be related to how that person’s cartridge reacts to the capacitance. |
Very interesting how this thread has developed. I have had my ph10 for a couple years now, love the convenience but I know there is better out there. Couple people have suggested Whest and now I read similar here. Only have a couple older mm carts, at15ss and Shure ml140he and newer mc carts but I have always thought the one area lacking a little was bass and bass definition, |
The 30RDT SE is a discontinued phono preamp. It was replaced this year by the 40RDT SE. The Whest Three SE is the model just below the 40RDT SE and its a 2/3 sized chassis vs. the full rack width of the upper end Whest units. The upper end units have a dedicated compartment with a divider between the main boards and the toroid transformer. The Three has its own dedicated chassis with the transformer, which I like and I like the 2/3 main unit as it's easier to fit on my shelving. From what I read, there is no question that the upper end Whest unite like the 40RDT SE, Titan Pro, Reference VI are very special items. The Reference is a dual mono pair of chassis phono preamps. I have to assume that they have done their design homework on making sure the single chassis designs work as well as independent preamps and power supplies as Whest has such a good reputation. |
Chakster, Obviously, I won't be buying BOTH a Gold Note and a Whest. In fact, I own an old Silvaweld top of the line phono stage (550SWH, I think) that I modified, probably too much. That's probably what I will use as an extra MM phono stage, if it sounds decent. As you may know, Silvaweld was designed and manufactured by Mr Park in Korea, the same person now behind Allnic products. Philosophically, the Silvaweld phono is different from the Allnic phono stages, in that it uses an FET for MC gain, not a built in SUT. But I want it for MM. |
Funny you mention the outboard PS. One of my longstanding beefs with the Whest stages is that they seemed to lack an outboard supply, which to me is a must, for the price range inhabited by the upper level Whest products. In fact, I just took a look on Hi-Fi Shark. There are two 30RDT SEs for sale. One shows the rear view, which shows an IEC input for an AC cord on the back of the chassis, as well as a rocker type power switch. This suggests there is no outboard supply, despite the fact that you say there is, even for the less expensive 3 (and I do believe you). But I am confused by Whest product line. What am I looking at? |
Lew, There is technically only one version of the Whest Three SE. I know that they have a special "rare" version which is a souped up Three SE and they add the 40 RDT SE front end to it. But that is even more money. If you get the regular Whest Three SE, it comes standard with the HVDM high voltage dual mono power supply with the two XLR interconnects. They also include some RCA input interconnects with it. It runs around $4K US dollars new. |
Actually I was 'sort of happy' with the Gold Note. The Gold Note had some software control issues in terms of the relays controlling the Gain and Loading settings. I was told by the factory to do a firmware update which came out late spring. I honestly didn't wish to deal with this as I wanted something much more simple to keep in operation. Plus I found the Gold Note in my system tended to have ground loop issues, which I did eliminate with experimentation, but again I am looking for simple. As far as performance goes, the Gold Note has a very nice mid range, but compared to the Whest Three with its outboard power supply and dual mono power line feeds (each is a 5 conductor XLR), there is no comparison.... the Whest is hands down far better. The Gold Note cannot compete with the Whest in terms of low end dynamic output and the upper end is far smoother with a substantial advantage in sound stage and 3D imaging. The mid range in the Whest is also excellent; so in essence, it has it all. In addition, the Whest has a very pronounced superior level of detail. I am very anxious to try out some new low capacitance phono cables shortly just to hear what that does. As far as noise goes, the Whest is extremely quiet, I don't even know if it is on when I switch over to the phono input on the system. The Gold Note was not nearly as quiet. But you pay for all of this as the Whest is almost 3 times the price point; but in my eyes well worth the cost. |
Reading between the lines, you seem to be saying that despite the high capacitance at the input of the gold note, you are very happy with the combination of the AT20SS with a gold note . It would be interesting to see if you like the combination of AT20 SS and the whest phono stage better. Or to learn how it changes the total balance. I own several expensive low output MC cartridges and several rare vintage moving magnet and moving iron type cartridges. Price, technology, and year of manufacture are not guidelines to sonic excellence. If I were moving to a deserted island and could take only one cartridge, it would probably be one of the older vintage models. |
Lew, yes I did use it with the PH10. In fact its all I use! My AT20ss (which was an AT15ss prior to this past winter when I swapped out the stylus for a NOS AT20ss stylus) has been in use since 1976. I like it too much to migrate over to any MC carts. In fact a friend of mine who has an Ortofon Windfeld Ti recently put an AT15ss with a NOS Stylus I sold to him into service. He's having a hard time determining if his $4500 Windfeld Ti is better than the old vintage MM :) I really enjoyed the PH10 a lot. It had very nice mid range, it was dynamic and very clean. The Whest Three doesn't use any capacitors in the output stage I am told and the input is "trimmed" as James says for 91pf on the input. He suggested that I change out my 120pf phono cable for something along the lines of 50 to 60pf to dial in the total capacitance to near the 150pf range for the AT20ss. James at Whest is very familiar with the AT20ss, he said it's a "GREAT CARTRIDGE", that is a direct quote. He loves it and said that its a perfect match up with the Whest Three phono stage; especially if I lower the input capacitance with a input cable change. A friend of mine sent me a link to some Mogami pro audio cable which is 14pf per foot. A meter or so of this cable would really dial this in if I have a cable made up for the SME IV tonearm to the |
I have a feeling they add some capacitance in parallel with the input, to prevent oscillation of the input gain device, which is probably a wideband transistor. And both tubes and solid state devices develop some inherent additional capacitance related to their operation. Thanks for the clarification. Do you use your Gold Note with that AT20SS? |
I had questioned this variation in specs and sent an e mail to Gold Note back in March. They clarified the misprint and told me that it's 220pf. That is still on the high side for a lot of MM carts. When you add in 5pf for the cable in the tone arm, 50 to 120 pf for the phono interconnect and the input of 220pf its very high. My AT20ss likes to see 100 to 150 pf total. The capacitance makes a huge determination in performance. It would be nice if they either offered variable settings or fixed it at a low level so that one could make adjustments via the phono cables. I am surprised that Gold Note has not changed the specs in their listing as they know it is not correct. |
I see that it says 220pF in the specs, but look at page 9 of the owners manual, in the troubleshooting section. There at the top of the page you will see “330pF”. I agree this is in conflict with the specs. Even 220pF is high-ish before adding capacitances due to the ICs. Of course, please don’t get me wrong, the most important thing is that it sounds good to you and to a great majority of the owners. |
There they say that the phono inputs present a fixed capacitance of 330 pF . what i can see on their website about inputs is 220pF for both inputs @lewm : Input sensitivity: from 0.1mV MC to 7.0mV MM Input impedance: 9 selectable options [10Ω, 22Ω, 47Ω, 100Ω, 220Ω, 470Ω, 1000Ω, 22KΩ, 47KΩ]
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I am getting interested in this phono stage, as a secondary unit because I need more phono inputs. I went to the gold note website to read more about it. There they say that the phono inputs present a fixed capacitance of 330 pF . That seems rather high as a starting point, especially when you consider that the phono cables are likely to add 50 to 100 pF. That’s a fairly high total capacitance load on either an MC or an MM. Any comments? Have any of you owners questioned gold note about this capacitative load? Also, inside the unit, do they use discrete transistors or integrated circuits? Someone said something somewhere about an optional tube-based output stage. Yet I see nothing about that on their website. Am I just wrong in thinking such a thing exists? |
Chakster, just to give you an idea of how powerful the bass is; with its beautifully detailed articulation.... My ex-wife who still works for me and runs the business office at a location around 150 meters away, down the hill from my home made a comment to me two nights ago. She said "I could hear your music down at the office over the sound of the cars passing on the main highway in front. I was somewhat perplexed as I was not really playing it very loud. I had my Anthem AVM60 preamp set at around -25db level which is robust, but certainly not blistering and all I had open were the two French doors to the deck. I said what exactly were you hearing and she said the music and 'that bass'. It was just pounding. I guess that tells the Whest story well :) |
When I got the PH10 initially, I really liked it; however I was coming up off of a Clearaudio Smart V2, which is a very nice unit, but it’s restrained; what can you expect out of a $700 unit? With time on the PH10, I found that it was better at the mid range and not much different in the upper range/sound stage/imaging. That was what prompted me to try the Nova III which blew away the PH10 in low end bass and upper end. The next move was to try to improve the mid range and retain the low/upper ranges. That motivated me to try the Whest which I have heard so many great things about. It was the best move I made. It has not only as much dynamic low end power as the Nova, but it’s far more detailed and articulate. And that smooth well defined response carries throughout the ranges. I love it. This has been a very interesting journey over the past few months and it has given me a healthy appreciation for how some electronic pieces can perform so differently from each other. |
Chakster, You should try to get your hands on a Whest phono stage; the low end and lower mids are just simply outstanding. I have never heard such detailed, powerful articulate bass and lower mid range. And from there up through all the rest of the ranges its just mesmerizing. I think that if I ever were to sell the Whest Three Special Edition, it would be move up to one of their next higher level offerings as I read that they are even that much more resolving; but the cost is very high. These are not inexpensive phono stages, however if you were to look at the build quality of the boards and the amount of discrete components used, you would understand why. Plus they use Clarity Capacitors in their construction which is exactly what Bryston uses and why Bryston gear is so expensive. I recently picked up a new Bryston PX1 external crossover for my Bryston Model T main speakers which have been modified to the fully active platform and I now use the PX1's. These things are beasts! And you should see the build quality. |