So the talk about the sonic effects of fuses got way out of hand, and I would like to know some details from those who have actually tried the boutique audio fuses. So if you have, please let us know any of the following:
1. What value (ampere rating) were you using, and was it fast or slow-blow (time delay)? Time-delay fuses usually have a letter 'T' in their rating, like "T2.5A" is a 2.5 ampere, slow-blow fuse.
2. Does anybody have a reasonably decent ohmmeter, and could you measure the difference in resistance between the boutique fuse and the standard one? If you measure, be sure to subtract the resistance of your test leads. Of course, if somebody has an impedance analyzer, I'd love to see that data . . .
3. What position is this used in? That is, on the AC line, or after the transformer, after the rectifier, etc.?
4. Has anybody had occasional fuse-blowing with the stock fuse, and replaced it with a boutique fuse, and had the boutique fuse blow? Did the failure patterns seem similar to both types?
5. Has anybody made any performance measurements on their equipment with various types of fuses?
So I'm hypothesizing about some ways in which fuses could affect circuit performance, and there are two things I can think of. First, if silver wire is used, then since silver has a lower melting point than copper, the fuse resistance *could* possibly be lower for a given rating. Also, many slow-blow fuses seem to have a resistive element wound around a central core, so it's possible that these could be inductive as well. So what could that mean in a circuit?
First, for a slow-blow line-fuse application, where there is an AC input filter, adding/changing resistance/reactance in the AC line could affect the Q of the input filter, and if this unit was RF suceptible or had a switch-mode power supply, the fuse could therefore affect RF emisions or suceptibility.
Second, many power amplifiers have no snubber capacitors on their rectifiers, and also use fuses for the power-transformer secondary. It's possible here that changing the reactive/resistive characteristics of the fuse could slightly change the switching speed of the rectifier diodes, and affect the diodes' RF emissions.
Third, some power amplifiers use fuses on the DC rails, after the filter capacitors. In this case, it's easy to see how fuse resistance could influence the amplifier performance.
Fourth, if a fuse was placed between a low-voltage linear regulator (like the ubiquitous 78XX or LM317) and its local input filter capacitor, the characteristics of the fuse could affect the regulator's stability, and cause it to oscillate.
And finally, there's the UL rating issue . . . it's important to have confidence that a fuse will blow when its supposed to, and without any certifications, who's to say? At $40 a pop [sic], testing their tolerance and production consistency is a very expensive proposition indeed.
Now I'm not claiming that fuses make a difference, or don't make a difference, I honestly haven't tried, and I'm too cheap to conduct an exhaustive study into the matter. But if anybody has some good data (even if incomplete) on their experiments, please share it.
Remove old fuse and put boutique fuse in, then listen. Take fuse out, put old fuse back in and listen again. Remember to reverse direction of fuses every other time as well. Repeat as many times as necessary until you decide which is better. If you won't try a $39 tweak, but you are obsessed with their performance, then you are not an audiophile...you are a techno weenie! Ears are the first best test instrument available for evaluation.
Just what the world needs -- another fuse thread. Dave_b has the right idea. I have a whole bunch of the things. They work for me. That's the bottom line. Good luck, Dave (another one)
Dave- I completely agree! If one does not try something themselves, and actually experience the effect(or not): How can they have anything outside of a totally empty opinion? Kirkus- If you are afraid of the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses(an ISO 9001 company), based on their lack of American(UL)approval: Try the Isoclean or Furutech fuses(http://www.thecableco.com/prodListing.php?cat=53), which ARE UL approved, and also DO make an audible difference. Just don't fall into the category of those whose minds, like concrete, are thoroughly mixed up and permanently set. Happy listening!!
Dave, let me put it this way. The best way to get repeatable results is to understand what you're doing and what you're changing. And it's obvious to me that if I wanted to duplicate the results of those who have heard audible improvements . . . then a great place to start would be by gathering information on what has been observed by others, no?
As far as the price thing goes, I don't think $39 for a big improvement is outrageous. But should your technical skills ever progress beyond mere fuse-swapping, you will see that there are literally thousands of tiny details in your equipment where you can apply a "cash infusion" . . . and if you like to dork around swapping parts inside your electronic equipment, guided only by your whimsey and credo, without any real knowledge of what you're doing . . . my friend, it is YOU who is the "techno weenie".
But I'm still interested in knowing details from those who have heard improvements, and that aren't too dogmatic to coherently describe their experiences.
I'm positive moving your head 1" will create more of a difference than changing fuses. Our power amps have had fuses in them for decades. Even the 10k power amps don't use anything but 85 cent fuses. I'm betting these engineers know what they're doing.
To copy and paste what I posted on the other fuse thread: They are designed to provide the greatest benefit when placed in the power supply(AC input or DC rails). In these circuits, I've found the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses to increase the "organics" of my system's reproduction. IE: Vocals sound more human, I can perceive the wood resonance in double bass, piano and drum better. the air column in a closely mic'd sax is more audible(the list could go on). To me the realism gained by installing the fuses is well worth the price of admission.
Why NOT in speakers? My maggies have 4amp fuses and they have not EVER popped. It might take 300watts RMS to do so, total to the panel.
I would still like to suggest some kind of blind test, since the human's ability to fool themselves (placebo effect) is nearly infinite....1. NOT DBT 2. Effect can work both ways, no?
I'm positive moving your head 1" will create more of a difference than changing fuses. Our power amps have had fuses in them for decades. Even the 10k power amps don't use anything but 85 cent fuses. I'm betting these engineers know what they're doing.
First of all, I disagree with you. Moving your head 1" in front of my system does absolutely nothing. However, the Isoclean fuses I installed in my Aesthetix were a nice upgrade.
If engineers are so "all knowing," why don't they employ point to point wiring, black gate caps, Teflon caps in the signal path, OFC copper RCA and XLR jacks, OFC speaker lugs, high quality AC cords, NOS tubes and so on?
The answer is simple, they build the product to a price point and that's it.
Audiophiles are not afraid to experiment with tweaks, some of which are a pretty good upgrade considering the effort and money involved.
(And note, the examples of what an engineer COULD do is just a run through of possibilities, depending on the product).
I may have not mentioned the obvious point that Fuse replacement would be more of a "last on the list" type tweak. All my comments are based upon that idea:)
Gentlemen, please. The other fuse thread was a fine place to argue about these generalities . . .
Rodman and Albert, I'm glad you're happy with the improvements the fuses have made; if you please, I'd be interested in knowing the values and circuit positions of the fuses where you've found the improvements, if you recall.
Magfan, I'd postulate that your loudspeaker fuses are a great place to see if there's a difference - they're directly in the signal path, they're a low amperage fast-blow variety (hence higher resistance), and the Maggies can draw significant current peaks, which could aggrevate any temperature-dependent characteristics in the fuses.
Remember, more and better data helps all of us! I have 14 glass fuses total in all of my components, and if I am going to try it like many of you suggest . . . $546 for all of them is a lot of Jack! Simply choosing one at random, or just switching out the easiest ones to reach . . . pretty lame approach. If we were that haphazard in our methodology for speaker placement, or tonearm setup, well, you get the picture.
Mr K- You'll note in my post that I mentioned these fuses are most beneficial in the AC line and DC rail positions. Those that I use in my amps are- (mains)Cary monoblocks:(2)3A/500V/Slo-Blo for AC and (2).5A/500V/Fast for Plate Voltage, (woofers)Hafler TransNova 9505: (1)15A/500V/Slo-Blo for AC, (2)10A/500V/Fast for output DC rail and (2)2.5A/250V/Fast for the driver DC rail. I'm confident that, were you to first replace only the AC line fuse(s) of your power amp(s), you would have all the evidence necessary to make a judgement for yourself. That would make it an easy and inexpensive experiment.
I always hope for rationality. It's reasonable to try a taste of what's offered, before filling your plate with it. But- That's just my way of looking at it.
"If engineers are so "all knowing," why don't they employ point to point wiring, black gate caps, Teflon caps in the signal path, OFC copper RCA and XLR jacks, OFC speaker lugs, high quality AC cords, NOS tubes and so on?"
Engineers laugh at "overbuild". Good engineering is all about achieving a goal using a minimum of materials and expense. This is what they go to school for. So, who sets the goal? Now a days, it's usually the marketing guys, and they live by the credo that perception can sell for just as much as reality and costs less to manufacture. One can go on and on with this line of thinking but it's pretty obvious where it ends up...It ends up with all those upgrades Albert noted above. If the passionate audiophile is going to squeeze out the last bit of music from his components, he will most likely have to do it himself.
Ooooo, baby! Why don't YOU tell me what I WANT to hear . . . that's soooo hot . . .
Anyway, I'm taking you up on this, Rodman . . . I ordered two Hi-Fi Tuning 2A slow-blow fuses from Acoustic Sounds, they have them at $34.95 (still made me wince a bit). I will do as you suggest, and use them in the AC line of my Marantz Model 2s. I'm thankful that your suggestion is for the easiest fuses to get at - gotta love external fuseholders right on the front ;)
I'm curious, did you change all of your power-amp fuses at once, or did you try it in one place, first? From what you described, the driver-rail fuses in the Hafler are the main suspect in an engineering sense, especially if these rails are taken directly from the main supply rails, and shared between both channels. I have personally seen (in solid-state amps) driver-rail bypass capacitors that "seem to be" fine and measure OK, but inexplicably cause an increase in measured THD. Same goes for cold solder joints on connectors that feed these rails.
If you were interested, you could change only these fuses back to the stock types, and see if that accounts for the bulk of the change in performance . . . but if you'd rather leave well enough alone, I understand.
Phaelon, I think you paint with too broad a brush. Some small manufacturers, typically not engineers, do use quality parts and state-of-the-art circuits. Nevertheless, what you say is true of what engineers have become in the US. MBAs and the success of their bottom line, or immediate bottom line have lead to this, but engineering schools have also changed from when I was in them.
Mr K- I started with the AC line fuses in my main amps, as I felt that would impact my system the most. You've obviously made the same educated choice. I'm changing the remaining fuses in a sequence, to better quantify what each change yields(rails=large). I've yet to dig the fuse out of my BAT VK-D5, as it's hidden inside the unit's IEC connector/power switch enclosure(and I'm basically pretty lazy).
Point taken Tbg. I wasn't really talking about small, super high end manufactures like Lamm Industries or Shindo Labs... They operate in quite a different reality than an engineer for Sony.
"If engineers are so "all knowing," why don't they employ point to point wiring, black gate caps, Teflon caps in the signal path, OFC copper RCA and XLR jacks, OFC speaker lugs, high quality AC cords, NOS tubes and so on?"
Maybe I'm wrong but I'd think manufacturers making amps for more than say 5k would give you better fuses if it helped the sound of their product. As we all know there's very much competition for our money out there. This is my best guess.
If I manufactured a power amp in today's market adding another 100 or 200 to the actual cost in the 5k and up class would seem very worthwhile because of the the diminishing returns thing.
Bottom line is though that it's your money. Room treatment and or equalization can make a huge improvement. I bring this up because I notice many people saying they can hear a difference between fuses have no room treatment. Once it's treated then you can become a much better judge of your system.
Without the treatment there's no doubt your system isn't operating at it's potential or anywhere near it. Too many room measurements prove this to be argued.
I don't disagree with your comments about room treatment, I invested an additional $30K for design, materials and work in my listening space when reconstruction was done a few years ago.
Even before that investment, the Isoclean fuses were enough of a change that I could have heard the improvement.
I think all this discussion is about levels of quality. I don't doubt there are many systems that would NOT benefit from a fuse swap. Most of the systems owned by guys in my audio group are the exception, and my Isoclean fuses were a nice upgrade for the $25.00 each I paid.
I have a large order of more than 20 Hi-Fi Tuning fuses sitting on my desk but waiting for my new crossover and cable to settle in before adding another variable.
As for your comment about engineers adding fuses on amps that are $5K and up, I disagree. I had a big argument with the owner of Boulder who builds some of the most expensive amps, preamps and phono stages in the world.
He doesn't even think it matters what wall plug your in, the condition of the socket or what kind of AC cord is used. A perfect example of engineer following paper rather than testing to see if there is anything to learn.
I think I'm wasting my time here. Those that believe there's a possibility of improvement with a fuse or power cord will try it. Those that are stubborn will continue to know they are "right" and never learn.
Their loss, not mine. I don't worry about such stuff, I try it and learn. If it works I support it and if it does not, I usually don't comment about it.
The reason I don't condemn things that don't work for me?
Even with my system as evolved as it is, some things will NOT work in my situation that may prove a blessing to another Audiogon member.
Albert- Don't think you are wasting your time here. Your(and Tvad's) encouragement and example of trying things for yourself is valuable. I believe there are many(perhaps a silent majority) that peruse these threads looking for tips to further their musical enjoyment. If all they could find were the negative comments of the concrete-minded, what hope would they have?
I changed three of the stock fuses on my modest AMC 3050a solid state integrated amplifier to Hi Fi Tuning fuses. Performance during the "burn-in" period for the fuses was unstable and rather odd as described in the link at the bottom of this post. Now that things have settled down, I conclude that the change ultimately made a positive difference in how the amp and my overall system sounds to my ears. Although this difference was not apparent right away, the current improvement I am enjoying is of about the same order as (but different in character from) changing to higher resolution interconnects.
Answers to Kirkus' questions from my experience:
1. I am using a single 4A T slow blow fuse and two 6.3A T slow fuses Hi Fi Tuning fuses.
2. I do not have an ohmmeter.
3. The single 4A T fuse was located near the power switch. The 6.3A T fuses were used in symmetrical circuits further down the chain, one each for the left and right channels. These two replaced stock fuses that blew when I unknowingly shorted one of the speaker terminals, if that helps you. I added these three all at once and cannot separate out the relative benefits.
4. No. I blew two of the three stock fuses due to incredible stupidity, prompting me to replace all three with the Hi Fi Tuning fuses. I have had no problems whatsoever with the new silver fuses.
5. The only performance measurements I have made were of the subjective variety and described in the following post:
Any subject needs discussion because no one person can see every possible angle. It's necessary to know everything possible to make sure what you know or think is correct. So everybody's opinions are necessary.
Every time we all still end up at the same exact location regarding fuses, cables and power cords. I'm as guilty as everybody else too by contributing to one of these discussions. Think I'll go listen to some music.
Warnerwh, listening to music is always my solution also. It is curious that sound is our major concern, but writing about is preoccupies us. Would it not be nice were we to be able to post our sounds?
Hello, Here are my answers: 1. Fast blow 4 and 6 amps HiFi Tuning from CableCo 2. Fluke model T5 1000. Zero ohm measurement on both type of fuses. 3. In line with amp output mounted at speaker binding post. 4. No 5. The only measurement I know of and how to do, is with my ears.
I heard little or no difference with the tweak fuses installed at the input supply 120 vac.
Where they do make a sonic improvement is at the speakers terminals (inline with amp output) and DC rails, circuit board mounted, especially. The filament in the glass fuses is supported on both ends filled with air, and the ceramics are either sand filled or like the Acmes are held with a solid rod going through the length of the fuse without any air space.
I installed Hi Fi Tuning fuses in my VTL amps and the change was so positive, two of the guys in my group ordered for their system the next day.
Strangely enough, putting Hi Fi tuning fuses in the turntable power supply was nearly half of what I got in the VTL power amps. Cumulative effect i would say.
Next is my Aesthetix Io and Callisto. After they return from getting their Eclipse upgrade, I'll give the Hi Fi Tuning fuses a chance there as well.
Looks like they are going to wind up in everything I own. I've already bought 40 and only 8 remaining. I did this long term, starting with a single piece of equipment and worked up.
That's why this is my first comment since my September post.
Alberporter- KUDOS on your continued experimentation with these fuses, and thanks for your observations. Ever notice that when many obtain an EE Degree, it seems to affect their aural accuity? Perhaps causing some sort of premature presbycusis, or creating a sort of mental feedback in the brainstem that precludes the hearing of changes(or the trying of new things) in their systems? (Just a hypothesis)
Ever notice that when many obtain an EE Degree, it seems to affect their aural accuity?
Understood.
I've read threads where the poster argues that something cannot work, even when items were available to judge by ear.
In photography I was taught to experiment, failure only means you begin again. For the same reason, I don't view failed audio tests as an embarrassment, but rather a learning experience.
I have a group of about twenty listeners, a few that show up every week and some that come only once a month or so. It's a very mixed group, ages from 22 to 65 years of age and a very wide array of equipment from Maggies to Vandersteen and Kharma to Sound-Lab.
What's great is to make a change from the previous week, announce at dinner that there's a change and visitors are invited to comment on strengths or weakness from previous sessions.
This way, regardless of my own feelings I gather comments from other ears and if a change is 100% approved by everyone, you can be pretty darn sure that it's a winner.
I have learned so much with my friends, a comfort in tossing around ideas in a NON hostile way (no ego's allowed!) and everyone free to say what's on their mind.
Frankly it's surprising how often a good change is voted 100% and how often a failure is tossed aside.
A request Albert: Would it be possible for those of your friends that decided to try the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses in their equipment to document their equipment, and the results of their listening tests for you to post here? I believe that would be a valuable resource for the followers of this thread(present and future).
One's an Audiogon member but he's incredibly busy and does not post much. He's user name is Logenn. He has a wonderful system but has not posted it in Virtual Systems yet.
The other guy that responded immediately is not a member here. He has a VERY expensive system but is a very private person. I'm fortunate to have both as members of my group.
The only possibility is that a higher resistance fuse used in the tweeter circuit of my Magnepans could cause a SLIGHT attenuation of the highs. There is a 1ohm wirewound supplied with the speakers and they claim about a 1.5db drop.
Buss has a table listing fuse resistance for all 3 of the fuses I would be interested in....sloblo / standard / quickblo
Curious what affect changing fuses in your source component(s) had on sound quality? I have heard that the effect of silver fuses was greatest in the amplifier.
Curious what affect changing fuses in your source component(s) had on sound quality? I have heard that the effect of silver fuses was greatest in the amplifier.
Actually, the effect was very similar everywhere I installed Hi Fi Tuning. Short answer, in order of biggest effect.
Cleaner with more transparency and detail (but NOT hard). Better dynamics Lower noise
I know that seems impossible, considering it's just a fuse. It probably would not be such a big deal had I not pushed everything else in the system before the fuses.
I don't understand why there is so much discussion of the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses and none about the IsoCleans which I find clearly superior and cheaper? And they have their direction marked while at least for the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses I have it is unmarked regardless of the fact that there are directional differences.
I have installed IsoCleans and can attest that they are indeed a great addition/replacement to the stock fuses. Cleaner, more dynamic, transparent, better pace and quieter than the stock they replaced.
These are my responses to your questions. I am using German tube equipment (in Germany) and I am going against the grain for the norm of the Hi-Fi fuses by using the AHP fuses instead, as my whole listening room is already wired with the breakers and fuses from AHP. http://www.audiophiles-hifi.de/contents/media/t_Feinsich1_400.jpg
The fuses for the equipment are the copper gold plated versions. These are imported in the states to PS audio under the "Critical link" name; http://www.psaudio.com/products/criticallink.asp
1. What value (ampere rating) were you using, and was it fast or slow-blow (time delay)? Time-delay fuses usually have a letter 'T' in their rating, like "T2.5A" is a 2.5 ampere, slow-blow fuse.
ANSWER: The ratings of my fuses are now T615ma and T3.15 amp (previously T2.5amp). Both types are slow blow.
2. Does anybody have a reasonably decent ohmmeter, and could you measure the difference in resistance between the boutique fuse and the standard one? If you measure, be sure to subtract the resistance of your test leads. Of course, if somebody has an impedance analyzer, I'd love to see that data.
ANSWER: Yes, I do have an ohmeter and a professional Grundig analyzer, have not tried to measure these.
3. What position is this used in? That is, on the AC line, or after the transformer, after the rectifier, etc.?
ANSWER: These fuses are used in line right on the EIC panel where the PC plugs in. On my equipment that is where the fuses are.
4. Has anybody had occasional fuse-blowing with the stock fuse, and replaced it with a boutique fuse, and had the boutique fuse blow? Did the failure patterns seem similar to both types?
ANSWER: Yes, the stock fuse blew several times and the vendor sent out a notice to all owners and mailed new fuses with higher amperage ratings; now 3.15A standard for the tube mono amps, instead of 2.5A.
5. Has anybody made any performance measurements on their equipment with various types of fuses?
ANSWER: When you state "performance measurements", are you implying electronic measurements or listenable differences. My listenable impressions were on the level as swapping tubes from an old set of KT88' with a complete new set of some other brand of KT88's. I state this as for my listening sessions have turned into even more inviting sessions. When I say this, I mean their is more aura, more spacial ques and some more extended energy at mid and higher frequencies. All of this adds up to a listening session full of decays and aura in the music that was somewhat diminished before. Now it is really apparent the ambience of the recordings and the music literally come to life. It has become more palpable with the new fuses in the system I would say.
4life, I have an in house design for an audiophile grade breaker box.The weak link has been the crappy breakers themselves. I could modify the design to house the breaker/fuse modules you reference so as the choice in finish of the fuse could be changed out by the end user to suit their flavor of the week. Tom
4life, Got me going here. If you have available there in Germany try out some AVM on the fuses for the modules you describe in use. Tbg and I have both tried fuses or magnets unpainted and then painted with this blue magic coating, I'm sure many others have as well. Be nice to hear your feedback on AVM's application at the source/breaker. Besides it may help me confirm a mechanical grounding method. More better music with AVM than without. Tom
The AHP breakers allow one to experiment with either the gold plated cooper or silver fuses. I have settled on the copper fuses for the main circuit driving my amps, while the rest of the equipment on another fuse block is using a silver fuse. The fuse block on the panel in Germany is easy to get to and allows for quick changes in the fuses if I want to play around or need to replace a blown fuse in the circuit breaker. I would suggest if you can adapt the german style breakers do it, they are so easy to install here, I watched the electrician do one install in about 2 minutes. You will need about a space and a half to fit the wider fuse block though, and they are more rigid and heavy duty then the "stock" fuse blocks (breakers). I ran 3 x 2.5mm heavy duty wire from the circuit to the wall outlets regular heay duty copper wiring, however each line is isolated from each other in their own pipe in the concrete wall. Since the walls were made in some other place and dropped in, I could have opted for any mod in the walls I wanted.
When we built our house of course electrical planning to include isolated conduits in the concrete walls was part of the plan. I opted for 5 dedicated circuits all with the AHP fuse blocks as they are more rugged, provided me with more wattage capability then the stock fuses and of course to be able to experiment with designer fuses.
I have never heard of AVM and the benefits it is supposed to provide. Could you please elaborate. Is it similar to the silver coating we can get from Walker Audio? I am not sure I would want to experiment that much, especially in the circuit panel. What have you noticed in regards to changes in musicality or noise floor. I may be tempted if you could provide some more information. Thanks.
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