To colekat:
Now I am on the verge of switching to the new p1/d1 or Vivaldi or maybe the new Soulution 745 with the new upgraded DSP.
I will try to hear and compare all of them. |
Hey Pharma, Glad your out there. Can't wait to hear your impressions of the new D1/P1. As for resale, 50 percent back on purchase is pretty good to me, espiecally digital, which is 40 to 50 percent off retail right out of the box. Look at Audiogon Digital, all the big dogs are at 40 to 50 percent. Which probably says they are way over priced to begin with.
Look forward to hearing your impressions of the new Esoterics! Hope there is something more than a souped up D-02/P-02!
And thanks for all the input, your like a high end instant reviewer! |
Hey Eelii, Where are you? Your thread is on fire! Hows the 9500's? Look forward to hearing back feom you. |
Hi Colekat, the difference between the X-01 DAC / analog output stage and X-01 as transport +Rowland Aeris DAC is rather staggering... For the first 150 hours of operation, Aeris makes a nice but subtle difference.... Past 220 hours mark, Aeris takes off, and makes my old X-01 in single-box mode sound... Broken.
Furthermore, because I use only a digital source, I may no longer need my preamplifier.... Musicality and authority remain exceptional, without any digital stridency, even directly into my amps.... And I perceive no loss of resolution as I lower volume on Aeris.
I venture to guess that by replacing X-01 with an advanced dedicated Esoteric transport, I will obtain even more desirable results.
Guido |
To Colekat:
You're welcome. It is more like personal opinion based on personal taste and some experience. I would be glad if they are helpful in anyway.
To Guido :
If you buy a dedicated Esoteric transport to be paired with Rowland Aeris DAC, please tell me about your findings. |
To Colekat:
As for the P01 VUK transport (list 42k, my deal was 30k) there is a huge loss of value. Now it is worth %25-30 of its value. That is why I recommend buying last possible gear possible or if an older design a used or demo piece. |
If I End up liking D1, I will continue using p01 for some time. I will sell or trade in both D02 and D03 DACs.
As for The Vivaldi DAC I will do the same, but I will keep The D03 for SACD playback since dsd is only possible through USB or by using Vivaldi Transport.
As for the third option, if the winner is Soulution everything will go. |
Hi Tom, happy new year to you and all! Sorry for the time out. Have been traveling for work then busy with family and more work... Need to read and do some catch up here. It is on fire all right. Congrats for the baby!
The 9500s I have them now all around the system. Fully powered by them. They are great PC all around. But the single place where the dif is just huge is in digitals. Like if they were designed for this gear. In amps and preamps they are great. But with the 3 digitals the gain is just incredible. I do recommend a listen in this aplication.
Also for those wanting the rgiht cable for the esoterics... Try the new 6300II. I changed my old 6300 from dac to preamp for a 6300II and it is also a great gain. Have not tey it in digital aplication but for sure something I will do.
Will reply to other posts next few days
All the best |
Hi Eelii,
Welcome back. What is different in mk2 of 6300 versus the regular 6300 ?
If I am not mistaken the only change is better isolation. In which area or areas is it better ?
Same question goes for 9500 as well versus 9300 (assuming that you have heard it)
Happy New Year. |
To Colekat:
I spoke with a friend who auditioned the Vivaldi stack.
He liked a lot more than the older Scarlatti stack and the newer Puccini. He wanted to try just the dac without the clock/transport and upsampler to be used with his Scarlatti transport and computer files. Unfortunately he didint like the dac when used alone outside the Vivaldi stack. He said that the sound stage collapsed and magic of the big stack was gone.
If you consider it as a stack it is more than 100k, and then there are cables (I need more cables than the Esoteric stack). So initially I will try to compare the new updated Soulution 745 and Esoteric p1/d1 when they become available.
Meanwhile p1/d1 could be on CES. The new updated Soulution is at CES for sure. |
Hi Pharma, I 'll be honest, I hope you perfer the Esoterics over the DCS stack, and the Solution for that matter. I'm surprised that the Vivaldi is so dependent on DCS component synergy. But then The Esoterics also seem to like being coupled within the brand, though they do perform well with other brands. |
Hi Eelii, Glad to hear from you! The baby is doing great, he is a jazz fan! As for the 9500's , thats great news. I am packing up the Synergistic Research Element stuff and sending it back, so the search continues. I'm trying to avoid the obvious, that this gear performs best within it's own family of interconnects and power cords. It makes sense! I'm trying to find great results without paying the premium. The SR stuff sounds good, but is really difficult to work with, plus there is way to much clutter to deal with the cords for the active circuits.
I'm still hung up on the Stage III Concepts PCs, but once again I would like to audition the cords first, and there is no factory program for that.
Anyway, it is good to hear from you again! |
To Colekat:
Me too. I am more inclined to Esoteric or Soulution. I may not do full p1/d1 system initially. I may combine like p1/d02 or p02/d1.
A dealer made me a very nice offer to switch p01vuk to p02 transport which works better with newer dacs. This offer is valid for p1 if it becomes available. Somehow p01vuk sounds better, or natural despite many different settings and cables I tried with the older d01 and d03 dacs. |
Thanks Tom. Yes I understand what you say with SR. I think is a particular sound. Nice in any case but to keep either You love it or not.
For the digital esoteric I really encourage to try the 9500. I think they may be the best alternative out there. Just my opinion. As said the improvement under this aplication is much greater than in preamp or even amps. But given the price of the things you need to be able to try out first before spending the cash.
Pharma do not have pre experience with the 9300. But it is the quitest PC i have listened. Huge soundstage very estructured presentation, detailed, fast and musical at the same time. Sounds a bit like on thesiltech side of things, but with more extended highs and faster.
The 6300 II have a lower noise floor. Easely perceived. They are more detailed, with more extended bass than mk1. A very good balanced cable. Musical with body but also fast extended and detailed.
Have not tried it yet as a digital cable. Will report on that too.
Best
Eli |
To Eli:
My name is Emre. Thank you for the 6300 mk2 and 6300 comparison. I am curious about aes/ebu performance as well.
I was considering 9500 for some time. Some people made comments on 9300 and how revealing it was. Also they were saying that it had tendency to sound bright when used with the "wrong" equipment. Since it is not officially available in US, and special order only I have decided to wait till I find a demo piece.
So, thank you for the valuable insight on 9500. I am still using 7300 which is less detailed, less dynamic and darker balance overall according to some people who compared it with 9300.
Now I can consider 9500 with more faith. |
Eelii, So far I have had great results with all your suggestions. I would love to give the 9500 PCs a try. I am a bit disappointed with the SR cords, I had hi hopes for them, but they are a pain in the ass to work with.
I am hell bent on maximizing these components, I don't believe I will be moving from the D-2/P-02/G-01 for a long time, if ever. As great as they sound now, I know there is more to get from them, and cords and speakers are where my shortcomings are. It is a tough pill to swallow, to spend nearly as much on PCs and ICs as components, but it appears to be necessary to actualize the best sound from these pieces. |
Yes I agree. See if you can get a demo somehow. Spending that much blind on cables is a great act of faith. I think you will like them, almost sure, but the degree of improvement can vary greatly from one system to another and you could find it is not worth it. The problem as you know is that you need 3 of them... |
honest honest and honestly asking, have any one truly compared p-02/D-02 vs P-01/D-01, as compo???
comparing 02 vs 03 has no meaning, as we know (sorry for such statement).
this comparison of p-02/D-02 vs P-01/D-01 is quite important.
|
Not me. Asume you mean the old 01s? My guess is that the 02s are more resolving. But I do not know first hand. The new 01s I think they will be better. By how much and if it is worth it, that is the question. I would habe liked to see in the new 01s streaming capabilities of some kind. |
Hi Tony,
The new p02/d02 has a slightly different sound signature than p01vuk/d01 I compared with. I cant comment on full vuk upgrade since the d01 I compared with was a well broken in d01 store demo piece from Spearit Sound without the vuk upgrade. The d02 and p01 vuk I used had more than 1000hrs. during the comparison, but the p02 which was exhibit demo piece was not completely broken in.
Cables were Esoteric 6300s for AES and audio out. Power cables were 7300s. The clock was G0rb. Filter was s_dly1 on D02, FIR on D01.
In short the new combo was slightly more detailed ,extracting more spatial information then the older one. The older one was more together and had a sound slight more cohesive and laid back. The newer one was more forward and it was highlighting some details more than other. The new combo had a larger and bigger sound stage. The older combo had a deeper sound stage than the newer one. P01 vuk /D01 had slightly warmer and thicker mid bass that helped some leaner recordings. On the other hand the new combo was more refined and didnt sound coarse with greater separation. On some cds the older one was better(especially lesser recordings) on some other the new one.
With SACDs the winner was the new combo which is due to the fact that the older d01 down converts dsd signal either to 88k or 176k pcm.
In short one is more laid back and cohesive,also slightly less refined the other one is more dynamic, clean but also more forward and very slightly less cohesive. They may sound closer with better cable choices that can compliment slight shortcomings or personal choices.
They are both great sounding digital gear but I would go for the newer combo for true dsd support, usb capability, the new 35 bit processing, plus easier upgrade path to new p1 or d1. The d01 has a great built in analog preamp. But since you have a preamp. that is not a plus. |
To Tony,
If you like the sound of the older Esoteric gear than I would recommend using p01vuk which sounds better and complements better d01 than p03 you own.
They are still one of the best in the world and they have very well proven sonics. As you know most well respected Esoteric recordings used D01 in the recording process as the dac.
Since they are voiced together it is better to go for the natural partner. I didnt like the new dac with p01vuk that much. But it was great with p02. On the other hand the p01vuk sounded great with d01 or d03 (d03 is for sacds to do pure dsd) |
Emre nice comparation.
Asume you are still using the 7300. I think the 9300 second hand while the 9500 become available can be a nice upgrade. I heard it fits the 02s much better. I dont have first hand experience though but if you can find second hand at good price not much to loose there. I suspect it can change how you see the 02s in a material way. |
Hi Eelii, Do you think the 9300's would be worth the change for the D-02/P-02, or should I just bite the bullet and go straight to the 9500's. Although, the 9500's , I would have to bring in one at a time because of the cost. The 9300's I can get a deal on three at a little over the cost of one 9500! What do you think? Would you go for the three 9300's? And if I buy one 9500 at a time, I would D-02 first, then the clock, then the transport? |
To Eli,
Thanks. I will try to find it. I will also check for the exhibit stock cables that they use at CES, or other shows. Sometimes they sell it for the half price, and they are basically used for a few days.
I am also waiting for the new p1/d1. |
To Colekat:
Ask for exhibit stock from your dealer. You can get a very good deal. I would go for the 9500 if it is available as exhibit stock. I would do the dac, transport then the clock. |
To Eli,
How is the mid band with 9500 compared to other cables you tried or stock cables ? The 7300 I used is great on bass but darkened and flattened the mid band. |
Tom what Emre suggests is worth trying.
Regarding 9300 or 9500 one by one hard for me to tell. I do not have first hand experience with the 9300. Bit have read good things about it. There is a nice review in the web comparing the 9300 with the 9500.
If you go 9500 I would probably do first DAC or transport and then clock. I did all 3 at once so cant say for sure but that makes sense.
Emre the mid in the 9500 is great. You hear much more music with these cables, not just details or better bass. For how people describe the 7300 I think the 9500 is a big change. However I had rarely heard calling the 7300 as dark before, so may be worth checking in your system. |
To Eli,
Thanks Eli. The word dark is misleading perhaps, because it makes you think the top end. What I mean it makes the mid rather flat and a bit shelved down compared to bass. So, as if the mid a bit in the dark.
I compared with Furutech PC and also Shunyata Anaconda.
As you know my system consists of Soulution 700 monos and 720 pre with Stella Utopia speakers, they dont tendency to sound dark, but they are truly neutral and have tendency to reveal any small change or any weaknesses. They are neither warm nor bright.
My second system is my older Krell KAV 400xi amp and Focal 907be speakers. Now the second system has tendency to sound bright, forward and lean. In the second system 7300 balanced some things better for ex.
7300 and 7100 are mid line PC cables. I am sure 9300 or 9500 will sound better. It is just some people preferred older 9100 better and found 9300 too revealing in some systems. |
To Guido,
I know this forum is not about the Rowland and amplifiers, but how does 625 sound compared to the previous Rowland amps with conventional power supply ?
I am asking because it is using Switching Mode Power Supply and Soulution has an upgrade for 700 mono blocks converting the conventional power supply to SMPS. Some people say SMPS may sound bass heavy with softer top, some others say mid band and treble may sound less natural due to some ultra sonic noise involved, etc. It is a very useful and cost/space effective technology that was around some time but it was not that popular before in high end. It looks like it is 2013/14's trend with some brands like Burmester, Rowland, Soulution to use it with conventional amp stages. So what are your findings ?
I also apologize from the forum and Eli for side tracking it. |
Hi Pharma, what you heard about SMPS is... All correct. In olden days, SMPS had been born as inexpensive, efficient, and compact replacements for conventional supplies... Without too much concern about performance. Rapid evolution has set in... Today, things are very different... SMPS can be very complex, sophisticated, and heavy.... And convey a sound that can be exquisitely refined, and is often subtly unique to the particular taste of the designer. I am confident that if Solution is now offering an SMPS option to their amps, they do it only because they have obtained an audible enhancement over what they had obtained with their more traditional supplies.
the regulated SMPS in the current generation of Rowland amps, which are often fed by a PFC rectifier, are as sweet as the old toroidal/linear supplies that Rowland used in the 1980 and 1990s on M1 through M9. However, the new SMPS are a lot nimbler and quieter than the old supplies, hence they deliver greater musical resolution, broader and more linear frequency extension, quieter background, and better defined macro/micro transients.
Rowland uses SMPS in the complete product lineup only because, within each price category, he prefers their sound over traditional supplies.
M625 is a fabulous stereo amp within its approx $14K price category. Never the less, the amp and its SMPS is merely the 4th down in the current Rowland amplifier lineup... From the top:
1. M925 4-chassis monos, $58K.
2. M825 2-chassis stereo (sibling of M925; convertable to mono ops with switch in back) $32K
3. M725 monos $29K.
4. M625 stereo. $14K.
I have owned M7 Mk.4, M312, M625, M725, and now have M925. The performance progression from the first to the last is simply staggering. And a good part of the difference is due to the progressive sophistication of their power input sections.... PFC and rectification, DC SMPS, 4-pole capacitor buffering, and regulation. Within the current Rowland production, M925 and M825 would be congruent with the caliber of your system.
If you are interested in more detail, the M925 section of the Rowland Knowledge Base has several technical entries that deal with the power input section of the amp:
http://jeffrowlandgroup.com/kb/categories.php?categoryid=212
Guido |
Hi Guido,
Thank you for excellent info. Looks like there will be more high end brands adopting SMPS to be used with conventional amp. stages.
The SMPS upgraded 700 delivers 600w in 8ohms, and 1200w in 4 ohms continuously versus the regular 700 that delivers 430/860w. Also the THD and IM is lower on the upgraded one.
Thanks again. |
Hi Pharma... I'll drink to that!
Guido |
Hi Guys, Its been awhile! Just checking in on your thoughts.... I have a chance to buy a pair of Acrolink 6300s, not the new series II, they are the originals. I wonder if I should pass on them, and go for the newest ones!
Let me know what you think!
Eelii, how are the PCs? |
6300s are great when used as aes/ebu. There are better interconnects than 6300. They are not the most refined, and they can be interpreted as bright sometimes since they are really extended as an interconnect. I prefer Tara 0.8, or the new more expensive Valhalla 2. A friend of mine likes Gutwire top model which costs around 3.5k over 6300s. I didnt hear it myself. |
As for the power cords, or pcs I didnt hear 9500 yet. But the new Shunyata Zitron Digital alpha sounded much better than 7300 in terms of soundstage, openness, noise, etc. I am considering selling my 7300 now. |
And the remarkable thing is that the Shunyata Alpha Digital PC is conservatevely priced at $999. |
I agree it made the sound of both D02 and D03 dacs more refined, smooth and lowered the noise plus it is just under $1K. I recommend at least hearing it. They have also Alpha HC for amplifiers and conditioners, Alpha Analog for pre and turntables. If I am not mistaken this Alpha Digital may also work with class D amps. I am not sure if it would work with SMPS tough, probably HC version is the right choice for the amps. |
It hasnt been broken in yet with just an hour, and it sounded less noisy, eliminated the least bit of digital haze from DACs made vocals better, made the music flowing effortlessly as a whole. What can I say, it is a steal for this price. The only area that Esoteric 7300 is slightly better is the bass depth, but like I said it is not broken in yet. I can easily say that this is the best $1k pc cable I have heard challenging more expensive cables. |
while it depends on individual taste, but once people compare D-02 with D-01, you will find D-01 is more relax, comfortable, not pushy, than D-02. (D-01 VUK is even better.)
Might be the technical spec of D-02 is better, but unfortunately audio is not only "made" by engineering, otherwise people do not need to "trust your ears".
Nowadays second hand price of P-01/D-01 is the same as new P-02/D-02, we have one more option.
I have A/B compared D-01 and D-02. Similar comments given by my better-half, and other friends who like music/concerts (but do not know audio) in various occasions.
|
Hi Operalover, how many hours of break-in did D-02 have... and what upsampling / filtering settings had been applied on the two units? G. |
comparison done after 500 hours break-in D-02.
tried several upsampling/filtering.
in fact, any upsmapling/filtering setting did not change the fundamental character. (upsampling/filtering only adjusted to the taste preference, not the fundamental character)For example, the exaggerate soundstage, and pushy character.
My friends are amateur concert musicians and conductors. My better-half pointed out the locations of instruments were too far apart compared with those in real concerts.
And more importantly, we were feeling tired after an hour or so of listening. (For example, during the day, we turned on the tuner all the time. We could do so using D-01. But for D-02, we turned it off after an hour or so.) |
Hi Operalover, at 500 hours D-02 was unlikely to be broken in.... In addition to the basic 500 hours breakin, D-02 likely requires another 500 hours on each targeted filter+upsampling value. Before the machine has settled completely, D-02 is likely to exhibit some residual aggression. On the other hand, an exhuberant stage/imaging may exists by design.
A D-01 unit would have had time to settle down for quite a spell... D-02 at 500 hours is a mere youngling DAC, with all the emotional problems of a tempestuous adolescence.
On the other hand, I freely admit that I am extrapolating from my experience with single box X-01 and K-01, which is a somewhat risky logical proposition... Pharma should comment, having had significant direct experience with most Esoteric front ends.
G. |
Before I decided to give up D-02 (sold already), it continued to run day and night until around 800 hr.
Until the point I thought why I needed to spend several thousands hours just to break in D-02, with unknown result?
On the other hand, second-hand D-01 VUK is readily available with well broken-in.
So D-02 was sold, D-01 was sold, and now D-01 VUK is in home; very relax, with good details at the same time. |
Hey Opera Lover, Spent better part of yesterday doing a Ypsilon DAC 100 Esoteric D-02 comparison. I've had my D-02 a year now, and would say it is as broken in, settled in, etc. anyway it is "in". The D-02 is by far the best Esoteric I've have heard, and I had the X-01/D2 and the K-01 after that, I still have the X-01/D2 for that matter.
The Esoteric sound as a whole is extremely detailed with incredible resolution, sounds are easy to deliniate and are very well sorted. That hasn't changed from the X-01 to the K-01 to the D-02/P-02, the progression has just gotten easier to listen too. No doubt the current Esoteric stuff is the best so far.
But, if I had it all over to do again, I would have paid better attention to the Hybrid stuff that is out there. After the Ypsilon DAC100 A/B with the D-02, I would not hesitate to move to the Ypsilon. And I love the Esoteric D-02/P-02, but overall, there is a general lack of musicality to the overall sound that was easily noticed in the Ypsilon. Now the Ypsilon has a tube in the output stage and does not upsample at all. In fact it only plays Redbook, and does so at a State of the Art playback. The listening was a pleasure . Now not to throw the D-02 out the window, I am still very pleased with the D-02, it does most things at a very high level, it just lacks a relaxedness to the overall presentation.
So I can see why you would be attracted to the D-01 Vuk, as it surely the most relaxed sound Esoteric has to date. |
Hey everyone, Where have you all been. I just set up my new Ypsilon Aleius Amps. They are Hybrid tube input stage, solid state output stage, zero negitive feedback. The D-02/P-02 is already more relaxed and these amps have only hours on them.
Do any of you have any experience with the Esoterics with tubes in the chain. Hope to get this thread fired up again. Hope all is well
Tom |
I am waiting to hear the new Esoteric D1 Grandioso converter that is replacing d01vuk. I will compare it to d02, d03 and I will try to hear dCS Puccini one more time.
D02 still sounds a bit forward and dry for my taste. According to some European reviews K series players roll off treble a bit earlier than previous players with SACD. I still like SACDs better on D03(more fluent and musical if not as detailed) than D02.
D01vuk and even D03 sounds more laidback. There is definitely old and new sound of Esoteric.
I am hoping that the new D1 Grandioso will offer best of both worlds. |
Hey Pharma, How's everything, well I hope! Just wondering if you have any news on the sounds of the new Grandioso's. I'm not sure they can even be purchased in the States, but if so, I hoping you got your hands on them and have a few words on there performance. Anyhow, hope this gets this thread fired up again. |
The new Esoteric D1 is truly wonderful sounding on my system. It has taken me almost 1 month to run it in. If you have a chance you must listen to it. My CDs have never sounded so beautiful. It is a open and lush. Of course, high-res material sound wonderful as well. It must be heard with a very good USB cable. By the way, Esoteric has a free music player on their website for both Windows and Mac which can be used on their DACs. It can play back native DSD and can also load the music directly into RAM. I had decided not to go with the G1 and use computer playback entirely. |
Happy New Year to all of you...hope you are all still enjoying your Esoteric gear! I would love to be able to move up to the Grandioso P1/D1 level but that is just not in the cards as they say....
I'm in the middle of what will be a hard-fought upgrade transaction with a very difficult seller (have 40+ pages of email and other comms, glad to provide details on this challenge and the seller so people can avoid him,....communicate with me on in-mail) and after a month, finally have a P-02 installed in the system in place of my 7 1/2 tried and true P-03U Transport. The D-02 is still outstanding and will likely become a 'longer story' with a potentially legally troublesome ending (for the Valley Stream & Lynbrook NY-based seller in question) so the P-02 is feeding my existing D-03 Dual Mono DAC with incredible results.
The holy grail of this hobby so to speak, is to be able to achieve very detailed and accurate playback with all possible inner detail retrieved from the recorded medium while also having organic, musical and non-fatiguing playback. As much as I love the P-03U/D-03 combo all these years, it's hard to put into words what additionally the P-02 brings to the table. The difference and upgrade in all these key areas is not subtle and is incredibly impressive! I'm extremely happy with the P-02 after only 2-3 days and cannot wait for the D-02 to arrive! |
I was able to find another D-02 in 9/10 condition from an outstanding seller on Audiogon (see my most recent feedback, this guy is great to deal with) and solve my immediate issue; the D-02 has arrived and is up and running with the P-02 as a matching set thus replacing my tried and true 7 1/2 year old P-03U and D-03 which will get posted shortly.
All I can say is "WOW!" in terms of the improvements that the new 02 combo brings to the table; they extract so much more from anything I've thrown at them and provide a massive sound stage with incredible depth and great imaging while still providing a very organic and musical presentation. In addition, the frequency range and particularly deep bass resolution and extension of the new 02 combo is truly "off the charts!"
I've experimented with various settings in the first 24 hours and thus far I am tending towards burning in the following combination first;
- upconversion PCM->4Fs (176.4) on P-02
- digital filter set to On (P-02)
- P-02 set to output ESL3 protocol
- upsampling set to 176.4 (D-02), ELS3 *dual XLR inputs"
- digital filter set to FIR1 (D-02)
- clock frequency 176.4 with G-03x driving (will try D-02, no G-03x at some point)
I've read several reviewer/other posts and have tried S_DLY1 (apodizing) filter1 as well as NoFilter on the D02 and NoFilter on the P02. Thus far, the above seems to be the best overall settings for my ears and how the units sound now but we'll see how things burn it and how it turns out overall. I will also try up-converting to both PCM via Dual XLR at 352.8 and PCM->DSD up-conversion at some point though initial tests of each seemed to indicate the above list is where I am going to start.
There are so many options with how these can be configured (have not even gone near the USB input yet!) that I look forward to a long and happy set of experiments and alot of listening with these units.
As for that seller of the first D02, a legal demand letter has been issued late last week, and the hunt will continue with the appropriate outside agencies if the DL is not responded to per its terms. If anyone's been through anything like this and can provide feedback/additional ideas please let me know through 1:1 private in-mail. Thank you! |
