A piano? You have to hear a solo piano with the 02s. Upper is more natural. Easy to hear the difference Piano is my favorite, and violin is the other instrument that is really telling what the audio system can do. This said, maybe you'd consider a shootout between the P02/D02 and NWO-MS? Just let me know when and I'll be there. Best wishes, Alex Peychev |
Was curious if any one knows how p02 d02 compares to the unaffordable dcs scarlatti - as dcs is the player of choice for most companies at shows such as CES? |
I tried Dsc some time ago. It was good but I don't think it was better than the 02s. at the time I liked esoteric better, although it was not the 02 I was comparing it to.
Although I can not say I am familiar with it and can not give a more detailed or conclusive answer. |
Thx for reply Eellii.
Another question - Do the 02s bring out the sound of the wood in string intruments or the leather or papery sound quality of the drums(I think this is the quality described as richness of tone colors in expert reviews)? |
They are very resolving indeed. Lots of detail and textures. But I guess that also has a lot to do with the rest of the system.
For the 02s, they are the most detailed I have heard. But also very musical. Compared with the 03s, they have managed to increase resolution while keeping the nice musicality.
Specific to your question, yes, the strings sound fantastic, and you can actually hear all the intrinsic sounds to the diferent instruments in a way I have notmheard in other systems.
Now the drums I could not assure you if you can tell the diference in quality of paper or leather... I am not that familiar with drums, and maybe that is too much of a claim by whoever makes it, but not sure., since do not listen to that much music with drums. Although the other day did listen to a jazz trio and drums were fantastic. |
At last I completed my comparison.
My comparison was made by using p01vu transport and G0rb atomic clock. Most listening was done with either filter off or short delay 1, no upsampling but in some rare cases with dsd upsampling. I used cds and sacds covering classical, rock, jazz and pop favorites. Cables were from Esoteric. Amps used were Pass(x600 and pre), McIntosh (400 & pre), and Krell. Speakers were Focal 907be.
I agree with Eelii on resolving power of D02. It is more detailed than d03 and any other dac I heard. It projects a very precise holographic 3d sound stage.
But I disagree on musicality. D03 simply sounds more cohesive and musical to my ears. It can even be considered very slightly euphonic. Vocals were more "human" with D03.
Note that I am using p01 vu as transport with atomic clock.
D02 is more revealing and sometimes has tendency to sound very slightly detached or a bit thin. It works better with a neutral or warmer system rather than a lean one.
On the other hand some may find D03 a bit warm in another system.
Their sonic signature is close, yet they still sound
different.
It all comes down to personal taste in my opinion. |
I can say that if you are going to use the usb and mostly well recorded cds and if it matches your systems sonic signature D02 is the winner.
When compared with older top of the line d01, it was more refined and smoother. Low level details were better on D02. On the other hand D01 had this powerful presence and texture of the instruments were sometimes better on the d01.
With sacd only comparison D03 was the best sounding with more analog like ease. |
More with d02 and d03...
Instruments have more body with d03. On the other hand D02 sounds clearer with extremely low background noise. When it comes to bass D03 has more impact, but D02 lacking slight thickness and warmth of D03 has faster bass and slightly better timing. As for the treble D02 is the clear winner with more extended yet silky smooth highs.
If you dont dissect and over analyze their performance, and
evaluate it as a whole, then I would say d03 in most cases is more musical with more analog like sound. (probably due to the slight warmth in mid bass and better bass impact resulting with more body)
|
I agree to some extend with Pharma's findings, in the sense that the 03s strongest point was musicality. They had a warm character that made listening very pleasant. But I do not find the 02 less musical.
And also, that t is in the level of detail and resolution were the 02s are far superior.
But to me, they do so while keeping musicality intact. So in my case the level of enjoyment of music is higher by a good margin with the 02s since they do transmit more. You get things out of the performances, that you missed with the 03s. I do not mean little sounds that were not noticed before. You get some of those as well but that does not increase my enjoyment particularly. It is more in the details of how the performers play, the different degrees of intensity, speed, dynamics at micro levels that makes the difference.
Also different finding in bass and presence and body of instruments. Bass is in my case more present and better defined. Also presence and body of instruments is a large improvement with the 02s. The 03s were very good, but they were more flat, in the sense that different recordings and performances sounded more alike. The 02s unveils differences that I did not hear with the 03s.
I guess some of this are system specific. Also the fact that I use the P02 with the specific transfer link to the D02s can make a difference, but there I do not know for sure since I have never tried them with the P01.
Overall some common findings and some differences, that again I think have to do with system and maybe the transport. |
Hi Eelii,
When I compared p03/d03 with p01vu/d03 (note that vu version of the p01 is better than regular p01) I had the same finding.
P03/d03 was too laid back, lacking bass impact and body and was flat.
p01vu changed the sound dramatically. It works well with d02, but I think d03 is more back rows, while d02 front. D02 sounds more forward with somehow more ambient information about sound stage.(usually forward sounding electronics give less ambient information.)
I simply found more emotion in some recordings (for ex: Diana Krall The Girl in The Other room SACD, Pink Floyd Wish You Were Here SACD, ZAZ les passants cd, Jenny Evans Shiny Stockings cd and most obvious difference came with Carla Bruni quelqu'un m'a dit cd- more emotional and human on d03)
I decided to keep both and evaluate them with my new system which is Soulution pre/power and Stella Utopia.
I will also compare them with Soulution 745. |
My dealer will bring a p02 ,so I will compare p02/d02 with p01/d03 and 2 transports with d02. Next month I am planning to compare it with the new dCS Vivaldi if I can get a hold on to a demo Vivaldi DAC or maybe system and Soulution 745. |
For now my verdict is that D02 is one of the most detailed converters around. Unfortunately it is neither one of the smoothest nor the most musical with cds. It can be a bit harsh and forward with some material. Compared with it Accuphase is smoother but uninvolving and also seriously lacking in bass. D03 also is smoother but less detailed and smaller in sound stage.
I have high hopes regarding the new dCS Vivaldi... |
Interesting and quite extensive try out. Congrats. That is the way to go.
I am not sure if when you get the P02 your impression of a bit of harsh and forward will change or not. I think likely not but we will see.
I don't know why you are getting that. Has to be system related or cables. or maybe taste/preference. The line between detailed and harsh can be thin. And these are detailed all right. but I do find them very musical too. More so with playing time.
I now added the new G-01. Increased musicality all around alongnwith the rest of things. But most impressive right now is the dynamics, impact and weigth of presentation. It is quite something. |
These things with the clock are even more impresive. I have tried it in the past (the old model) with the P03 D03 and found little improvement. Had it home twice and never went for it.
Dont know why but with the 02s and the new G01 the improvement is very nice and evident. It may have to do with the fact that my speakers now are diferent and more resolving or the new componets are, or a mix. But the adition of the clock makes a large improvement I never heard before with this kind of gear. I recomend it. |
Hi Eelii,
I absolutely agree with your comments regarding the clock. It makes it more musical, "more analog" with better dynamics. It sounds like areal event rather than a reproduction of it with the clock. Also the sound stage is now rock solid and bigger. It is more "3D". |
About slight harshness, I observe it only with some cds never with sacds or well recorded cds. It may also the revealing power of the DAC. It cant change a bad remaster into a good one. I will try p02 just to hear if 352khz upsampling (similar to DXD) and the new aes link would make a difference. (p01vuk does 176 or 192k upsampling) |
For now, I enjoy no upsampling and short delay 1 filter or no filter with most cds. When I use D03 no filter is my favorite setting. I use upsampling with the new 32 bit fim cds (they are remastered or mastered with 32 bit processing and 88 or 96k in most cases, so I use matching upsampling rate) or xrcds. Brightness issue improved a lot with the new Acrolink BNC cables that I use with the clock.
Also another observation is that the ac cables make a lot of difference tonally (more bass, better bass slam, less bright, etc..). Slight harshness may also be power cable related, so I will try Nordost Odin and the rare Esoteric/Acrolink 7n-pc9300, 9100 or the new 7500 as well. |
Another observation is that some cds sound better with homogeneous harmonics and better musicality in 88/96k (or x2) than 176/192k (or x4) and some sound better at plain 44k. As for the filters s-dly1 is better with plain 44k, but I prefer fir or no filter with higher sampling rates. Filter off option makes vocals more natural.
Lesser or relentless recordings sound better with D03 due to its more laid back, slightly warmer and less revealing nature. On the other hand D02 is absolutely neutral and it reveals everything without changing anywhere.
To me clock makes equally big difference on both D03 and D02. |
Yes that is the way it should be. And is why I wanted to try out the clock once more and would not have ordered without listening to it first.
As I said, with the 03s I had the old G-0rb home for a try out twice. WHile I think I could hear a difference, that was to the small side of things, not always for the best, and after a while decided that my findings were not conclusive at all. So both times I decided not to go for it, given price and the improvement I got. Was surprised given what I read all over, but it was what I heard.
So with the 02s I also got to demo the same G-0rb, which haven't been sold still... to demo it. And the difference this time around was evident and affected all aspect of sound. Without entering into specific details of where it got better, I will say the listening experience was much more enjoyable. So I ordered the new G-0. This was an easy decision this time. It took me very little listening to have it clear. If cost is not a problem, the difference is very high.
WIth the G-0, I can say that the improvement was even better. Was not like going from no clock to a clock, but still again all improved more. SO in my system the difference between the 2 clocks are also evident, being the new superior. It does basically the same thing with the music, but to a greater extend. And still breaking in. But sounded fantastic almost from day 1.
So if it is not the clock model that makes the listenable difference, since I would have bought the old model too if the new was not out, it can only be, in my case 2 things that made me not hear this differences before so clearly
The 03s models benefit less of this (doubt it) or given it's less resolving nature, the effect is less evident.
or my system was not capable of showing this up. I tend to think it may be a mix of both, but weighting the second much more. The only major change in my system in between try outs really is in the speakers. Although it was a big one: went from the B&W 800Di, to the TAD R1. The B&W I do like them very much and I think for the cost they deliver big time. But they can not compare to the R1s in any aspect of sound (as you would hope and expect too given price difference...). So here is where I think the explanation can be.
As for cables, the Esoteric 6100 BNC for clock and the 2 DA6300 for digital are also by far best I've heard with these. Guess is synergy or that they are designed with these units in mind. The 6300 makes a big difference with any other cable I have tried. I would love to try the PCs, but having a hard time finding them for a try out. And also I am quite happy with the sound I am getting so if I can or find a good opportunity I will give them a try but not really actively looking at it. The rest of cables seem to work well. I have also a pair of 6300 form the DAC to the pre, and SR for PC. SC are Siltech Emperor. The warmer nature of the SR and the Siltech may also help to get a musical presentation, along with some tubes in the chain (in my case ARC 40 anniversary pre).
As for filters I leave that off in all cases. For CDs I use the mode they recommend with the P02: the ES link3. For SACD I do DSD. SCADs are fantastic. Nad CDs are very good as well, but if the recording is poor you can tell. But that is the way it should be I think. Transmit what is there, not alter it. But even in these cases the listening I find it very enjoyable.
Regarding clock, are you using the G-0 or the G-0rb? |
One Q Pharma,
how do you have the clock out terminals connected to DAC an transport? Do you use both out terminals A from clock to transport and DAC and turn off terminals B and C,
or use A1 for DAC and B1 for transport, and turn off A2 and B2 (and both Cs)? |
Eelii & Pharma: I am thinking of taking a step-wise upgrade path with my P-03U/D-03 combo over the next year and was thinking of upgrading my D-03 to D-02 and keeping my clock and P-03U transport. I know there are modes above 176.4 that are not accessible in the D-02 without the matching P-02 transport but that P-03U and D-0 can work together. What are you thoughts on D-02 given additional time to break in and what you've been able to hear since February? Thanks! |
Hi Eelii ,
It is G0rb. The clock makes a big difference with both converters.
I use DA6300 as an interconnect and 8n-a2800 as AES.
I tried the opposite configuration but 8n-a2800 was less resolute and slightly warmer as an interconnect.
I prefer filter off in good recordings and especially vocals, but with lesser recordings I prefer short delay 1 in d-02 and fir with d-03.
Sacd is great with both dacs. D02 is holographic with pin point imaging but slightly dry and forward.
I would go for TAD cr1 or r1. They have life like dynamics and incredible resolution. Their only sin is that they are a bit forward and very slightly thin sounding in mid- treble region. My favorite is Stella Utopia. |
Hi Eelii,
I use terminal A and and turn off terminals B and C. I didnt try the other option. I cant use 100k universal option with D-02. Also when I am using sacds with d02 sometimes the clock doesnt lock or takes longer to lock in.
When this happens I turn off the dac, and the clock locks in without a problem. This happens rarely only with some sacds. |
Hi Zephyr,
Good decision. You can upgrade your transport later. You can also transfer all your cds (as for the sacds some people use a special program on sony ps3 and transfer it) to lossless flac files and use your usb on D02. |
Pharma007: Thanks for the advice and thoughts on how to best leverage the D-02 for SACD! |
Hi Zephyr,
You're welcome. What is the rest of the system ? |
Esoteric P-03U, D-03 (current), G-03x clock, C-03 pre-amp, Edge NL 12.1 stereo reference amp (soon to be Maker Audio NL14+ stereo custom build), Purepower 2000 APS, many Elrod Statement Gold next-generation power cords and interconnects, Kubala Sosna Emotion clocking cables and Kubala Sosna ELATION AES/EBU cables. Adona racks with Composite Audio additional platforms, custom-pulled 10-gauge (20amp but pulled sufficient for 30amp) circuit, Avatar Acoustics Afterburner8 outlets all around and finally, a Granite Audio Ground Zero star-grounding unit. |
Hi Zephyr,
Very good system. What are the speakers ? |
Legacy Focus SE...with this rig they amaze me at what they are able to produce! Thinking of upgrading to the one of the following; new Focus SE with AMT tweeter assembly, Legacy AERIS (amazing speaker), or Legacy Whisper DSW edition once power subs are considered for addition.... |
Hi,
I am not familiar with Legacy speakers. I read the review in Absolute Sound. It is a lot speaker for 9k. I recommend some other speakers to audition. From Focal 1038be (it is also a lot of speaker for 9k), From Magico S5, From Dali Epicon 8(another fine ex. of speaker with ribbon tweeter) and From Sonus Faber Amati Futura ( its sweeter, warmer and rounded balance matches Esoteric's slightly forward and dry balance). |
At last I compared transports as well. I did the test without upsampling by using d02 dac and with short delay filter 1, clock was G0rb.
P02 sounded more open, vocals breathed outside the speakers more and overall there was slightly more detail with cds compared to p01 vu. P01 vu was a bit darker. On the other hand p02 sounded a bit leaner with less body and it was slightly forward overall. This forward presentation projected vocals more in to the room. P02 was revealing a bit more in the upper mid and treble.
The new transport during loud passages was able to separate voices a bit more than the p01 vu. As for the sacds the difference was smaller.
Also p02 has the advantage to upsample to DXD (354khz or 8x)or 48bit which I didnt test. |
Thank you very much for this.....I still have the P02/D02 on my wish list for the future! |
Hey Pharma007, what is your experience using the Grb clock with the D-02/ P-02? I have a great deal on the G-01 clock waiting for me to snap it up. I have found no info anywhere on the D-02/P-02 with the clock. Whats your take on the clock, is worth it ? |
Yes it is. Big difference for the good in all aspects. Wrote about it back in the post.
Also, just noticed. There is a big difference in reproduced sound depending on how the xlr gain is configured in the D02 if you are using preamp. 0db which is factory default or +6db. |
Hi Eelii08,
It is interesting that you mentioned about the xlr configuration. I find +6 dB setting in my system with a JR Capri S2 preamp driving the K -01 player better in every way. Is this your experience too for the combo?
|
Hi all. Does anybody used power conditioners with their esoteric Black Noise filters with good results but dealer warned me on power fluctuations problems since esoteric doesnt have AC fuse inside, suggest me to use ps audio products for AC protection and voltage stability. |
Hi eelii008, I made the move on the G-01 clock, after reading your thread on the clock, I'm like a kid on on Christmas morning, can't wait. I have the Xlr out at 0db, what advantage did you notice with the output at 6db. I am using the Esoteric C-02 as my pre, and find the 0db output is better for low level listening. What are you current IC's and Clock cables, and how are connected into your clock. thanks for any help, great thread! Tom. |
Hi Colecat,
Congrats on your G-01, I use G-0 rubidium model and I liked a lot. Most significant upgrate |
Hi Hal123, I look forward to getting the clock after reading this thread. What cabling are you using? I hear Esoterics 6100 BNC's are great with the clock ! Any advice greatly appreciated, Thanks Tom |
I've used the following for clock cables with very good results; Audioquest Eagle Eye BNC:BNC, Tara 0.8 Digital BNC:BNC with separate HFX Ground Station, VH Audio Digital Cable BNC:BNC and over the past 2 years, the Kubala-Sosna Emotion BNC:BNC cables. I'm sticking with the K-S cables as they are the best I've found at this point given those I've tried. I've also heard very good things about the Mexcel-Esoteric cables.... |
Hi Colecat,
I am using Analysis Plus Digital Oval BNC cable for clocking. I actually didnt tried more expensive cables but analysis plus digital oval cable gave me satisfastory results for that and cost resonably less. For digital connection cable makes difference yes but for BNC cables clocking maybe my last think to consider for upgrade. I heart good things for Mexcel-Esoteric cables, but this investment is kind of over spending for me now. I obtained best results on connecting both on same output with 176 Khz, on some CD's interestingly 44 kHz give more detailed sound, but setting on 176 Khz give allround depth and well defined soundstage. I tried different power cords for clocking unit but heard no difference, Esetoric also says the unit is not sensible on AC power. If anybody have different experience please let us inform, only think that I observed clocking unit is sensible on temperature, locate your unit far from your amplifier, unit must placed on a fresh area far from amplifiers mostly tubes, and I let clock unit open all the time. Regards |
Hal123, I use Analysis Plus Silver Oval ICs on alot of my system, but I use WireWorld Platinum Eclipse Series 7 ICs and BNC clock between the DAC and Transport. Definately great cables! I believe I can get better performance if I can get the Power Cords right, that is where I believe I can improve. I use Shunyata ZiTrons but I want to try the Mexcel cables. After reading eelii008 , he is very confident that the Esoteric cables perform best. So thats my next move, although there not cheap... But this is not a hobby for the penny pincher, thats for sure!! |
Thanks for the reminder to you both; I also used Analysis Plus Digital Oval2 cables for clocking for a little over a year with very good results. Apologies for leaving these off my earlier list. In terms of Price to Performance ratio for clocking options, the Digital Oval2 is a fantastic choice... |
Hi Zepher, do you have any tubes in the chain? I agree with you on the Analysis Plus Cables, they are hard to beat for the price!!! |
No tubes in the chain...while I've heard and love some of the aspects of tube equipment, I've focused on getting my solid-state-only setup as far along as possible. |
Hi Jon2020
Actually no. In my case it is the other way around. i like it better with xlr set at 0db. Need to listen some more since the diference is actualy not small. I am surprised. Only diference should be in the higher or lower signal coming out but sound print does change. Not sure I understand why.
My tought is that it may not be better or worse per se but depending on preamp and what it likes better to see or similar. In my case the sound character you would expect from the ARC ref 40 ann. seems more evident. Also being able to take vol. higher at preamp may make a dif. Not sure what it is. But need to listen more and will try to asses better. |
Hi Tom, we are having this conversation in parallel :-)
Did not realize this thread was so active again. ON cables you now already, right? Just check for the new models II of 6300 if you are going for them. Or if the same is coming out for the 6100 which I haven't heard but I think they could soon.
The kid inside you will be very happy indeed! congrats.
No is the other way around. I do like 0db better. At least for now. Need to listen more, but I used to play at +6db and changed to 0db to try. Was surprised with how different it sounded. In theory it should have only affected signal level but it does change the sound footprint. I find at 0db the sound is more pleasant and engaging. relaxed in a good way. more analog like if you want. Fantastic both ways though may be a matter of likes or system matching. For me now I am enjoying very much the sound at 0db.
For low volume listening I think clearly the best is 0db. |
Hi Eelii08,
Thanks for your kind response. I agree with you that at 0 dB, the sound is more relaxed and pleasant at low level listening. But there is a loss of dynamics when it comes to orchestral crescendoes. So I guess we can pick and choose depending on what we are listening to and when, like late at night. Cheers!
|
Yes, it is very much like you describe that I find. Also I am finding tha the choose of desired cables for the analog out of the Dac changes. With output at transport at 6 I liked better siltech. But with it at 0db i like better mexcel 6300 there. These are faster cables, not so relaxed as siltech, so I guess it gets you closer to a middle point or something like that.
Need to listen more since this is a surprise kind of. Would not have expected any change from just raising or lowering the output gain of balanced in transport besides the vol difference. Actaully havent touch that in almost 2 years... But it does. Cheers |
BTW, I am sure Alex could give a very good tech. Explanation of why this is, if he is around, and would be appreciated. |
