Or you could jump on the $700 XX-2 for sale used here right now. A killer cart.
No affiliation with seller. |
Thank you all for the continued responses. My phono preamp is a Dynavector P-75. I'm close to making a decision and think I'm going to borrow a Dynavector 20X2 and see how I like the way it sounds. I figure if I can get a hold of one to try for free, I've got nothing to lose. I do like the idea of selling my speakers and purchasing something not as bright as the Focal's but one thing at a time. Since I have access to the Dynavector, I'll see how it does with my current setup.
Thank you all again, I will update this post when I obtain the Dynavector and let you all know what I think. |
David, I shared your feeling that a wood-clad cart would sound better BECAUSE of the wood. For a while, everyone was doing this to Denon 103 carts and so did I, putting a neat-looking Panzerholz "pod" on mine after removing the plastic body. Others reported liking this change a lot. I thought it simply veiled and dulled the sound and ended up back with the original plastic, selling the pod. At least two other folks had the same reaction, so I'm not totally alone :-) |
I too recommend the Denon DL-S1; it is a wonderful cartridge. Because of its extremely low output you have to have a really fine phono stage. |
Hi David , I think you should try a subwoofer. Most people do not call the Grado bright, Focals can light up a room, but for many adding lows can fill out the sound. Testing a cart at home with out buying is not easy these days Almost every town has a Best Buys or simular store . Go buy a sub you can afford and try it , they will gladly take it back if it doesent help. Maybe they will not have the best but most stores will have something worthwile owneing. David |
I have Analysis Plus Copper Oval Micro interconnects as well as their Pro Power Oval power cord. They are not colored, far from it. Of course it probably helps that both have been burned in on the Audiodharma cable cooker as well as Cryo'd. |
The Analisys Plus cables are the most colored cables Ive ever heard ,next to Cardas, I cant stand them. Go for a Morrow Audio Cable, or Kimber,or Nordost.Cables are tone controls. The MAC preamp is nice but you can get the same sound or better without all the bells and whistles.I like MAC I use a MC352 Amp....with a Primaluna Tube Preamp.I am getting tierd of shelling out big bucks for equipment. I saved a ton of $ not buying a Mac preamp and I dont miss it at all.
Matt |
Davidlillis - "When I do purchase another pair of speakers, I will never buy anything that has titanium tweeters. I've heard a bunch of different brands of speakers and love the Harbeth's"
I think you answered your own question here. I would sell the Focal speakers and buy Harbeth Compact 7 or Monitor 30. You should be able to get one of those used for $1,000 plus the proceeds from your Focal speakers.
Alternatively, there is also a pair of Proac Response 2.5 being auctioned on Ebay right now (no relationship with seller). I own Proac 2.5 speakers, think they sound great, and they also have soft dome tweeters. |
I am not a great believer in changing components to correct problems in other areas. If you get a cartridge that rolls off the highs to sound better with your too bright speakers, then you are stuck with a cartridge that rolls off the highs. Better to upgrade by trying to move closer to neutral, so that every component change gets you closer to where you want to be. Once neutral, you can change one component if you want extra warmth, treble, bass detail or whatever. Having one component roll off the highs, while another boosts the highs is just looking for aggravation down the road. |
David, ** I am hopeful that upgrading to a new cartridge helps eliminate some of the treble harshness and provides a sweeter overall sound.**
It might not be in your current budget, but it would be much better if you could replace the speakers first. If you have a $1K budget for a cart and put that toward new speakers plus whatever you can get for the Focals, you might not be far off? If you buy a cart now, voiced for your bright system, it might not sound that great with sweeter speakers. If your current cart is still functioning, you should hold off IMO and put the money where it will do the most good.
Regards, |
Thanks Storyboy, I agree that the recording plays a large part in what we hear. As I type this, I'm listening to The Doors, Live In New York - Felt Forum and Morrison's vocals present an immense amount of sibilance in his "S's" and it's driving me close to insanity!
I find your statement regarding the speakers brightness not being attributed to accuracy. When I do purchase another pair of speakers, I will never buy anything that has titanium tweeters. I've heard a bunch of different brands of speakers and love the Harbeth's. I can say that I used to have my Focal's angled in, they are now dead on straight. The soundstage improved greatly and has controlled the sibilance to some degree on different recordings. The only reason I even own the Focal's is I bought them for half price.
I truly think I need to revamp a number of items in my system but a new cartridge with my current budget seems like the best place to start.
David |
Bob,
Maybe a upper model Grado would be an option? Eventually my plan is to purchase a tube preamp, I really like the Mac 2300 since it has tone controls. I realize that tone adjustments introduce an additional path for the music to travel through and takes away from the purity of the sound. However, due to my setup, I like having that ability. The Mac also has a passive out which will allow a 5.1 decoder should I ever get back into the movie thing. It's expensive at 6K so that's a future purchase.
David |
Got to say a few things.
There are 2 causes for sibilance, the production or the reproduction of the recording. In the production, closely mike'd vocals and studio compression are the causes of sibilance and cannot be controlled without de-essing in the mix or using a different miking technique. Thousands of recordings are already embedded with it to one degree or another.
Preventing it FURTHER while using vinyl means a stylus profile and high frequency tracking of high order. When set up correctly you will then be in a safe zone where you may notice it on the recording, but without any further emphasis (mistracking). Grado's, unfortunately, are not known for this. This can be realized by simply looking at the numbers - check the high frequency tracking ability, the higher the better.
When it comes to digital, the sibilance on the recording usually reveals itself by instantly jumping forward out of the normal spatial mix perspective. The lengthy explanation for this phenomenom is on the web.
And, of course, make sure your listening environment and equipment are not adding emphasis - speakers that are "bright in the highs" are NOT "very accurate". |
It surprises me that no one has yet pointed out that Grado cartridges are among the least bright or harsh cartridges in the world. And it's among the sweetest. I would venture to say that almost every alternative cart mentioned thus far has at least the reputation for being brighter than the Grado. If you're having a problem with harshness or brightness, I'd say that the Grado would be the last thing to blame.
-Bob |
I have another question: What do you guys think about the Denon 304? I have a friend that works at Denon and can pick up anything Denon or Marantz for half price.
Thanks again! |
Thank you all for your responses. At this point, I would like to borrow about 10 carts, listen a month to each, and then make a decision. Pursuing such a cause is obviously not practical. I like the idea of a wood body cart, simply common sense tells me that it should be less harsh that plastic or metal.
Dweller, It never dawned on me that living in a highly populated area can cause RF feedback through my cables. Thank you for pointing out that potential issue. I'm using Analysis Plus cables, the inexpensive $100.00 cable as my interconnects as well as my source cables. Since my system has developed from a 5.1 channel to a 2 channel system, I at one time had to purchase many cables which even at $100.00 a pop was expensive.
This hobby is a joy as well as incredibly frustrating. So many choices and getting it "right" seems to cost quote a bit.
Thank you all again for your help. I will post an update once I have my new cartridge.
Regards,
David |
I have also owned a Sumiko Blackbird, and while I do agree with Wntemute2 that the cartridge itself exhibits no upper end harshness, like the Dynavector, the Blackbird will also not mask the brightness that your Focal speakers exhibit. Neither the Blackbird or the Dynavector will roll off the high's to make your Focals easier on the ears. You would be looking for a wood body Benz or a Koetsu to accomplish this task. The Koetsu is probably out of your price range, unless you consider used. |
I like my Sumiko Blackbird. No upper end harshness but good detail across the range. Probably not the last word in carts but an all a rounder that is not fussy about VTA. I have an easily adjustable and repeatable VTA adjustable tonearm and the characteristics do not change much as one raises and lowers the VTA. So if you want a set it and forget it cart that does NOTHING wrong, the BB may be for you. Used ones or even new ons are found here often! I also find that exposed cantilever makes setting the alignment just that much easier. |
Harsh high freqs can result from poorly shielded ICs in a "hot" RF environment (i.e. urban, military, etc.).
I had issues like this in Chicago. |
I've owned two of the carts named above, the Ortofon 2M Black and the Soundsmih Zephyr, both on a VPI JMW 10.5 tonearm. IMO the Zephyr is superior in every respect to the 2M Black (sold last year). I recognize that this could be a system issue, YMMV and all that. |
Sturgus, Only bachelors are allowed (by themself)to do such things. Don't you know that everything connected with furnishing is the born right of the 'weaker' kind of the human kind? Besides the limit 'under 1 K' may suggest some other rights. |
Davidillis:
In pursuit of my own Vinyl Setup (which is no where as being close to your VPI Scout II + Black Knight Platter + JMW Memorial 10.5 Arm...... Mines will be a restored Thorens TD-160 + Jelco SA-750D Arm), I am looking to top mine off with an Ortofon 2M Blue Cartridge (another subject matter entirely).
In the case of your Vinyl Setup, in pursuit of taming the brightness of your Speaker System, I would look at trying either an Ortofon 2M Black, or a Sumiko Blackbird. The Ortofon 2M Black is about $700.00, while the Sumiko Blackbird is a little over $1,000.00. I would also look at one of the Benz Wood Bodied Models as well.
Hopefully, one of these fine Cartridges would cure the brightness issue that you are currently having.
Good Luck In Your Search.
--Charles-- |
If you are looking for a warmer sound, I'd recommend a Benz Wood SL. I'm using a Dynavector XX-2 mk II with my Scoutmaster, and while I agree with others here that it is not bright, it is also not as warm or musical as a wood body Benz. The Dynavector won't help to hide the brightness of your Focal speakers, the Benz will help to do this better. |
You would be astonished at the improvement you would get with a Grado Sonata, and it sounds better on vocals than more expensive cartridges. |
I have a P75 and used to have a 20x2. Replaced it with a Denon DL103 and nuded the cartridge (or you can buy from Soundsmith already nuded or Zu in an aluminum housing... all good). If you put the P75 in special mode, it's pretty awesome with a DL103. |
David, Do research the DL-S1 on Audio Asylum, as well as here. This is a very fine cartridge: True sound reproduction that gets the fine texture of instruments, and vocals. I listen primarily to classical music which is much more demanding of a TT than rock music. |
Maybe a grand spent on getting the room right might be the way to go. I did not see any mention of room treatments. If you have already addressed this. Disregard my comment and buy the Dynavector, great sounding cartridge. You could also look at a tube preamp some where down the line.
Sturgus |
Thank you all for your responses and recommendations.
Redglobe, I agree with your assessment regarding the causes of sibilance. I have tweaked, and tweaked, and tweaked. One day (it's amazing how the ah ha moment in life can take some time), I threw in a CD in my Arcam CD-player and confirmed that it's not the TT, but it still could be the room, the stuff in the room, the speakers, the pre-amp (old Mac C32), or one of many other factors, but I don't think it's the TT. My dealer and I have an excellent relationship where he will allow me to try a few carts out prior to purchasing. I'm going to take each of your recommendations and try a few. I'll post my decision when it is make. Thank you all again! |
I think you should hear the Dynavector 17d3. |
I WOULD TRY THE ORTOFON 2M BLACK. IT IS A WARMER CARTRIDGE AND WOULD HELP WITH THE BRIGHTNESS YOU SPEAK OF. ALSO I WOULD CHECK OUT THE NAGAOKA MP500,A WARM AND DELIGHTFUL SOUND.
MATT TX |
HI David- I would get the Soundsmith Zephyr in this price range for your setup. It is an exceptional moving iron cartridge with terrific seperation and wonderful sense of timbre. |
I have a 20x2 low. With the correct loading it is far from bright or forward sounding. IMO it has the rare combination of incredible delicacy in the treble range with a slightly laid back presentation. Others have mentioned that it is an excellent match with a P-75. |
I recommend a Denon DL-S1 (Under $600 from Comet Supply or $800 from Galen Carol). I use it with a VPI 12.5 JMW and I have Focal Utopia Orca-Designed speakers. My hearing is very sensitive to high frequency sibilance.
Sibilance can come from various sources: TT speed inaccuracy, TT speed fluctuation, the listener's own sensitivity to high fequencies, inaccurate cartridge tracking (set up issues). |
