New cart for under 1K

davidlillis - check your inbox for a private message.

I hope to try the Audio-Technica AT33PTG/II from 2juki on ebay for my next cart. You can get one for below $500 and has some nice remarks about it (all the rave in Japan, etc. and tends to run just a bit dark).

Not associated with 2juki at all. Just want to hear it on my RP6. :)

Hey everyone, since we kind of got off topic in this thread where it has turned more towards speakers than a cart for under 1K, I'm going to start a new post named, "New Speakers for under 5K"

Thanks again for all your help.

David

Turns out my favorite dealer, In Living Stereo now sells Spendor but stopped selling Harbeth. There are not any Proac dealers anywhere near me so over the course of the next couple of weeks I'm going to listen to the Spendor's and the Harbeth's. I listened to a pair of Monitor Audio's and Atom's over this past weekend and thought the MA's were nice but missing something and the Atom's were not good at all (IMO). I've read quite a bit regarding the Spendor's and the Harbeth's and think it's basically going to come down to my ears and what I like. so the search continues, I'll keep everyone posted on what I like.

Thanks again everyone for all the input.

So you found a speaker with a metal dome teweeter that is not harsh. I'll bet you that there are far more speakers with metal domes that are considered "bright", "edgy" or "harsh" than are not.

BTW, the tweeter in the Harbeth is one of the few metal domes that is excellent. I believe it to be a Seas and it has been used succesively in some of the best speakers over the past twenty years. However if you look closely at it you will see that they use a clear "acoustic lens" on the back side of the grill to block the ringing that leads to a harsh high frequencies.

Jkorkten,

Definitely interested, what Harbeth model/price?

David

BTW - the comment about metal dome tweeters being harsh is nonsense. The Harbeth SHL5 uses metal tweeters and the high end is gorgeous.

Listening to Harbeths in my NYC system. If you're interested send me a PM.

Jerry

Soix,

Thank you for the recommendation. I know exactly where Park Ave. Audio is. Actually it's two blocks North of Les Halles, one of those boisterous NY restaurants and one of my favorites!

Thanks again!

Glad to hear you decided to upgrade the speakers. If you can get to Park Ave. Audio in Manhattan you should go hear a pair of Joseph Audio speakers. I think it would be well worth your while. Best of luck.

Sorry to hear of your bad experience. John has always been great to deal with as far as my own experiences.

Jperry,

I bought an RP5 from John in Verona. I attempted to contact him several times throughout the following week to make an appointment to check on the order for the spacer for my cart as well as setup a time for the following weekend to swing by for one of his guys to perform the work. The first two phone calls I attempted with him, he was either eating lunch or busy, stated he'd call me back and did not. The third call, he practically hung up on me. I returned the TT the following Saturday. Unfortunately my experience with John was not the positive one most people seem to have. I'm reluctant to deal with him in the future, but will if it's the only place to hear the Proac's.

Thanks again everyone!

David, I don't know what your price range is, but here is a couple of reco's for some sweet sounding speakers that are close enough to NYC for you for a personal demo.

Merlin VSM-MXe

Verity Audio Parsifal

If you have a car Verona, NJ is only 25 miles. You could also call Modern Audio to see if they have a NYC dealer.

Thanks guys, I'm in NYC which is no where near Phoenix for a listen of the Proac's. Devore are sold by my local dealer as well as Devore, and Dynaudio. I don't know much about any three of them, but will definitely give them a listen. I would love to listen to some Proac's, but I see that could be an issue given the fact that none of the dealers in NYC seem to sell them.

Regards,

David

+1 for Arizona Hi Fi. They are my local dealer of choice. Glen and Bill are great.

Audio Connection in Verona, NJ, John Rutan is a great dealer.

Not sure where you are located.

The US distributor is Modern Audio 410.486.5975

Fjn04 - Are you in Phoenix? How do you like the Devore speakers?

Arizona Hi-Fi

Jperry,

Thanks, the problem I'm finding is locating a US based dealer that sells Proac. Andy ideas?

David

Listen to some Proac speakers. I think you might like them based on your comments.

Thanks Johnnyb53,

I don't remember what series from Infinity, I was probably 13/14 years old at that time.

I'm definitely going to audition the Golden Ear's and the others that contain the "folded tweeter" design and looking very forward to it.

I bought a pair of Wharfedale 10.2's for my office and I have to say, they're impressive for 500 bucks. I've got them connected to a Marantz PM5004 which is perfectly sufficient for an office and I was keeping my office budget below 1K (which is the first time I've ever stuck to a budget with audio gear!).

Davidlillis: Those Infinity tweeters were from their EMIT series of drivers, correct? I sold stereos in SoCal in the mid-'70s including ESS. Their Heil AMT tweeter (the basis of this current crop of folded tweeters) were incredibly fast and clear. They could also handle a fair amount of power. The current ones take up much less space; the old ESS AMTs had a huge magnet structure.

I'm really glad to see air motion transformer tweeters come back. I'm really thinking about getting some GoldenEar Aon 3s or Triton Sevens for the living room.

Also, for a computer desktop or small home studio, the Emotiva Airmotiv line of powered monitors with folded ribbon tweeters should provide some great bang for the buck. The entry-level Airmotiv 4 is only $349/pair.

What about the Anthony Gallo 3.5's? Has anyone listened yet? I saw them at the NYC show this past April but didn't give them a run since the room was too crowded.

Johnnyb53,

A buddy of mine bought a pair of Martin-Logan Motion series on my recommendation and the retailer had them on sale for 50% off. When I listened to them, I was really impressed by the smooth quality of the highs. As a matter of fact I was a little pissed that my speakers retail for 6K and he spent 500 bucks and they sound better (at least in the highs). Anyway, I went online and discovered the method in which they are manufactured. It's very interesting how they layer and fold over the materials to create the tweeter. And it's logical that the sound produced is smoother than metal domes. When I was in my teens I remember Infinity speakers being very popular due to the ribbon tweeters. Back then they were one piece of ribbon that only handled approximately 2 watts. Hence, people that were turning up their rock were blowing the tweeters. Infinities response was to insert an array of multiple ribbons.

One thing I have begun to notice in myself, is that metal dome tweeters are just too harsh for me. Soft dome or ribbon are more to my liking. I've not hear enough of the air motion types to form an opinion yet.

Jjremnman:

The speakers I heard recently were the GoldenEar Aon 3 standmount speakers at $999/pair. They are a stone cold bargain. Their midrange and bass is as good as their treble, which is saying something. In fact, the Aon 3's bass quality, balance, and extension into the 30's is in the same league as a 41" floorstander with--say--a 10"x12" footprint like my Mirage OMD-15s or Monitor Audio Silver RX-6s.

GoldenEars are well distributed. I strongly recommend you audition their lineup. They hit way above their price points.

I've also heard their flagship Triton Two, but there are things about the Aon 3 that I like better. Sure, the Aon doesn't go as deep or play as loud as the Triton Two, but the smaller cabinet with no parallel surfaces is remarkably quiet and devoid of obvious cabinet colorations. I'm also keeping an eye out for the new Triton Seven, scheduled for June release. It's a passive floorstander with a D'Appolito array augmented by side-firing passive radiators; $1399/pair, no stands required.

Johnnyb53,

Well said about tweeter types. I've been hearing great things about the GoldenEar speakers but have not yet auditioned them.

Another tweeter type that does not have the resonant problems of a dome are the dual ring radiator types. They are used very successfully in Sonus Faber as well as others.

05-20-13: Jjrenman
Johnnyb53, You state that "Spitty sibilants are the first sign the treble isn't right. In addition to an emphasis at that frequency range, it could also be tweeter overshoot or ringing." Agreed but ringing and resonant peak are the same thing.

After I wrote that it occurred to me that we're talking about the same thing. *Just about* all dome tweeters have the "oil can resonance." However, they don't all sound the same owing to different materials (with different resonant peak frequencies), amounts of damping, magnet strength, etc. Dynaudios don't seems to exhibit this problem.

A few months ago I auditioned some speakers with a Heil-type folded ribbon tweeter. As I listened to how natural the sound was, I realized that I was for once hearing treble reproduced without overshoot or ringing.

There are a growing number of speakers that use this tweeter type, including GoldenEar, ADAM Audio, the Martin-Logan Motion Series, and Legacy Audio.

Just about every review I've read of speakers that use this tweeter type mention the detailed yet natural treble reproduction devoid of resonant peaks and overshoot.

Also, I wonder if the oil-canning is mostly a metal dome problem. I've checked the response curves of several Dynaudio speakers and their tweeters seem to be free of any resonant peaks. But then, maybe that's why they get the big bucks. :)

Jjrenman,

Occasionally with some recordings the JM's sound fantastic! Typically it's with jazz or anything without vocals. Due to the sibilance issues and the harshness in the highs, all vocals are not enjoyable. Separation is also a nice trait of the JM's. I do listen loud occasionally, I have my moments where I just have to listen to some old Queesnryche or Iron Maiden! Most of what I listen to is indie rock, classic rock, jazz, and some chamber music. Some favorites are Wilco, Sufjan Stevens, Miles Davis, Andreas Vollenweider, Neil Young, Stan Getz, Frank Zappa, I think you get the idea. My range is 4K-6K used or new. Of course I'd like to stay closer to the 4K range.

Do you have a price range in mind for new speakers or are you just getting ideas? Are you open to used as well as new?What type of music do you listen to? Do you listen loud? What other speakers have you heard that you liked? Is there anything other than the bass that you like in your JM's?

Nagaoka
They run well in a wide range of Arms.

Johnnyb53,

I read that same review. I used to toe-in my Focal's and after tweaking inch by inch, straight forward is definitely best with these speakers.

All,

I've decided to put a hold on the cartridge and focus my energies and time to save up for a new pair of speakers. After reading all these incredibly insightful posts I'm definitely convinced that I simply do not like the way my speakers sound (bass is excellent, but that's it). One post stated not to upgrade the cart because that's where my budget is right now. I was looking for the quick fix because the harshness really annoys me. Patience will reap rewards, speakers are the next purchase. I'm thinking Harbeth, Dynaudio, Spendor, any thoughts on a nice pair of speakers without the harshness? Does anyone know anything about the Anthony Gallo 3.5's? They receive excellent accolades and are not all that expensive.

Thanks again to everyone for all the feedback. This has been truly informative.

David

"It might also be helped with a well-placed capacitor or resistor in the crossover to roll off the highs a bit."

Actually it would be an inductor in series with the tweeter with a resistor in parallel with the inductor. However it will not change the character of the highs just the quantity. IME you can not deal with resonance peaks in the crossover you have to deal with them physically. IE blocking the offensive resonance, stiffen the dome or use a different shape and or material.

Johnnyb53, You state that "Spitty sibilants are the first sign the treble isn't right. In addition to an emphasis at that frequency range, it could also be tweeter overshoot or ringing." Agreed but ringing and resonant peak are the same thing.

I agree with you and everyone else that the Focal tweeter is "bright and cutting"

Dome tweeters aren't inherently bright and harsh, but many have a resonant peak that's tied to the material used for the dome. Silk and other fabric domes are pretty gentle up there; aluminum ones have a spike at around 30 Khz, which is usually not too noticeable. Some metal domes have damping, such as the cloth-damped Mirage titanium domes.

However, the JM Focal 936 that you have is evidently pretty bright and detailed, for whatever reasons, as dealt with in this Positive Feedback Online review. It's so bright and cutting, the reviewer warns not to toe the speakers in "unless you want a haircut."

Although I mentioned pairing the Zu-103 cart with your Dynavector P-75, the real problem with your tonal balance is your speakers. I've auditioned the mid-line Focals a few times at a local dealer and I always find them too bright and analytical. Maybe you should check around some more forums or talk to a speaker technician to see if there's a good replacement tweeter to calm things down. It might also be helped with a well-placed capacitor or resistor in the crossover to roll off the highs a bit. From your and Positive Feedback's descriptions this sounds more like a wider rising response in the high treble than an out-of-band resonance spike.

Spitty sibilants are the first sign the treble isn't right. In addition to an emphasis at that frequency range, it could also be tweeter overshoot or ringing.

In Tone Audio's Issue 15, publisher Jeff Dorgay reviews the Zu/DL-103 and concludes that it hits a sonic and musical sweet spot with Dynavector P-75. At the time of writing it was his absolute favorite cart and phono stage at that price. Back then (2008) Zu offered only one version of the Zu-103. Now they have various select models at higher price points. The basic Zu-103 is still only $439.

Jirenman,

I love that idea! I know exactly the dots you are speaking of. I have tested the harshness in the highs with my Arcam CD-Player as well as my iPod with identical albums and the highs are as harsh. Two years ago when I got back into my vinyl collection I performed this test. This is also why I'm sure the issue resides in my speakers. I have a pair of Wharfedale 10.2's in my office. I may bring them home for a simple test. I'm going to head to my dealer to start listening to speakers so I can start narrowing down speaker selection (which is a whole other realm of exploration).

Most dome tweeters have the same problem in that the top of the dome resonates at the upper end of the audio band that can add an edginess or sizzlly quality to the highs. You will notice that your tweeters have a lens covering the dome of the tweet. Usually these lens's are put in place to block as much of this extra resonate energy as possible.

If you want to try an experiment you should pick up some felt dots that are sticky on one side and try putting them on the tweeter lens. Start with one about the same size as the lens and work up from there. The idea is to increase the effectiveness of the lens without negatively affecting the tonal balance. The dots are easily removable if you do not like the effect or when you are ready to sell the speakers.

BTW you did not mention what other sources sound like? Do you have a CD or DVD hooked up to the system?

Siox/Jjrenman,

I agree with both of you, I've had difficulty coming to the conclusion that it's my speakers, but I think you are correct. The rest of my system is a McIntosh 7205 5-channel amp that I'm only using 2 channels presently. I have two pre's, a Meridian 565 which I am not using and a McIntosh C32 which is old and should be replaced. I don't think it's the Mac gear that's causing the harshness. I really think it's the speakers. The Focal's do not have beryllium, those were the BE models and were 2K additional. I have the titanium tweeter model. My old JBL's had titanium tweeters as well. I am sure of one thing, I am never buying speakers with metal tweeters again!

Let's simplify if possible. Do you have any other sources. If so and they are also "harsh" in the highs than it is somewhere else in your system and I agree with those that you need to change out something other than your cartridge. (Probably your speakers as beryllium tweeters can be an "in your face" presentation). OTOH if other sources are merely "bright" and not "harsh" than the problem is the character of the highs not the quantity. (Probably the cartridge, Grado's are not known to be aggressive in the highs but IMO they do not have any delicacy or sweetness to the highs).

Bottom line, more input is needed.

"The Focal's are very accurate and tend to be bright in the highs. Brightness is what I am trying to avoid. I've found the highs to be too harsh for my liking, especially with vocals."

I see why you're immediately targeting the cartridge given your budget, but look at what Jperry said above as you could potentially fix the real source of the problem with little/no additional net $$$ outlay. I think you're making a big mistake trying to fix this through the cartridge. By definition you'll have to buy something that's rolled off in the highs, and since you're planning on upgrading your speakers in a year you'll very likely be shopping for another cartridge again in a year (at additional expense). Plus, I don't see anything else in your system that points to brightness -- quite the contrary (including the Grado) -- although I didn't catch what you're using for cables/interconnects that may also be contributing here.

Sounds like you arrived at this issue by buying on price and expedience rather than focusing primarily on sound and, just as importantly, system synergy. Time to stop that. Don't polish the turd here -- SOLVE THE PROBLEM and be done with it. You may well find with the right speakers you may not feel the need to upgrade anything else, at least for a while. Something from Joseph Audio (there's a nice pair of RM25XLs for sale right now that wouldn't cost much more than what you could sell your Focals for),PMC (nice pair of twenty.23s up for sale too), or Nola are a few that jump to mind that are probably more refined in the frequency range causing your problem. At least find a way to audition something like these in your system before throwing money at other components.

Really sorry if I'm sounding preachy here, but this strikes me as a situation where taking the quick, easy bandaid approach would be a mistake when there are options to do it right the first time. Best of luck, and please keep us posted on whatever you decide.

I do not know which Harbeth speaker you are considering, but if you sell your Focals for $2,000 and spend another $1,000 you can buy a used pair of Harbeth compact 7 es3, or Proac 2.5 for even less.

David, as much as I am enjoying my Dynavector XX-2 mk II cartridge, I don't think that it will help to hide your JM speakers brightness. The Dynavector itself is not bright, but it is not rolled off either, if used with bright gear, the brightness will come shining through. I have long been a fan of soft dome speakers, Dynaudio, Verity, ProAc, etc. I learned to avoid metal dome tweeters over 20 years ago.

If I were you, I would change speakers first. If you cannot change speakers, I would advise against getting a Dynavector cartridge. To control brightness, you would be better off with a Transfiguration, Koetsu, or wood-bodied Benz cartridge, IMHO.

Jperry, Roscoeiii, Jmcgrogan2, Jmcgrogan2,

Thank you for providing your input, your advice is incredibly insightful and helpful in making this decision.

To clarify, my speakers are JM Focal 936 Elektra's and IMO they are on the bright side and sibilance is an issue on many of the vinyl recordings I own. I'm also finding that separation can be skewed resulting in music simply not being all that engaging. I believe the issues are threefold since I have built my system over many years based on good deals and not matching the components:

1. My amp is a McIntosh 7205 connected to a McIntosh C32 preamp. The preamp definitely needs to be replaced but I'd like to retain tone controls as well as a passive output so I can have the best of both worlds with 2-channel vinyl and 5.1 channel movies for that rare occasion. The McIntosh C2300 has it all and is tube which is the direction I'd like to go in (open to suggestions here as well).

2. I picked up my speakers brand new for 1/2 price 7 years ago when my old JBL L100T's baffles finally blew out. It was a poor decision, but filled a need and when a dealer calls you up and says I've got a pair of 6K speakers for 3K because of a scratch on the back on one, it's hard to resist.

3. At this point in time, my budget is around 1K which directly points at a new cartridge. The speakers and amp combo are more than likely going to run around 8K and I think replacing the speakers after the cartridge is a must (I can sell my Focal's for around 2K so that offsets some of the cost).

Long story short, I am 100% positive that the new speakers I choose will be on the warm side, I am staying away form titanium tweeters no matter what. I really like the sound of Harbeth's as well as Dynaudio's (also open to suggestions here).

I listen to Indie rock, classic rock, jazz, bluegrass and some chamber music. The only music I don't listen to is pop, rap, and very very little classical. I realize how difficult it is to match a system based on the fact that I listen to a wide variety of music.

The bottom line: I would like to pick up a cart for around 1K that does well in the areas of the music I listen to. It doesn't have to be perfect, just better. And the main immediate goal is to control the brightness and sibilance but also keeping mind that within the next year I'll be replacing the speakers and probably the pre-amp. This simply may not be possible, but I'd like to think I can get close or at least improve my current situation. I am leaning towards the XX-2 from what I've read and from the incredible feedback I've received here.

Thanks again guys, this is truly a remarkable repository for research and advice from folks involved in a hobby that really bites back when you make a poor decision since everything is expensive!

Regards,

David

I had the Dyna 20x2 low output on my Classic 3, and went to the XX2 Mk II and the difference was pronounced, dynamic range, bass emphasis was enhanced, if you can swing it the XX2 MK II continually impresses me. I absolutely really like it for 70s rock. It also seems to me extraordinarily quiet in the grooves with that micro line stylus. Also set up seems less critical than some other cartridges I have owned. My son has the Ortofon Black on the VPI traveler and that is also one heck of a cartridge. If I were looking for a MM cartridge in the $600 range I would put it on my short list. It is really good. If you want MC and can handle the 0.28 MV output of the XX2 MKII my recommendation would be try and swing it, instead of the 20x2.

I have owned the Dynavector XV-1s, XX-2 mk II, and 10X5, I have also listened extensively to the Transfiguration Phoenix and Orpheus L. Both will work well with the right equipment, but sonically, they are quite different.

The Transfiguration cartridges are very relaxed and natural sounding, and work extremely well with Jazz, Blues, Female vocals and small, intimate band/club environments.
The Dynavector cartridges are more dynamic and powerful sounding, and work extremely well with rock and large scale orchestral recordings, in large halls or arenas. Which you would prefer would depend on the gear you already have, and what type of music you like to listen to.

I'm currently running a Dynavector XX-2 mk II, but I was looking for a Phoenix -S at a good price. I finally gave up and 'settled' on the XX-2 mk II, but I have to admit that I am enjoying it quite a bit. Is your system a bit warm and you're looking for a bit of zing? Get the Dynavector. If your system is a tad bright and you are looking for something to tame it a bit, go for the Transfiguration.

I have no experience with the Transfiguration, but I really liked the XX-2 (Soundsmith rebuild) with the P75. A low impedance cart like the XX-2 is ideal for the PE mode of the P75.

And I'd be sure that you have an idea of the seller's listening preferences as well. Does the seller listen to similar genres? Does the seller prioritize the same sonic characteristics as you do? This of course also applies to anyone giving a recommendation.

Anyway, I am not meaning to suggest that the seller's advice isn't good advice (again, no experience with that cart), but be sure to calibrate a purchase to your preferences not anyone else's. Including mine.

If you feel you must change cartridges, the Dynavector cartridge will be a great match with your Dynavector phono preamp. Save the money for your speaker upgrade. 1300-700=500 towards speaker upgrade.

I am sticking by my earlier post, which is move to a speaker you really like, then align the rest of your system around the speaker.

I received a response from a seller that stated with my phono pre P-75 the Transfiguration Temper Supreme would be an amazing match. He's selling it for $1,300.00 which is above my price range, but is a consideration. I know nothing about this cartridge and was wondering if anyone here could explain the differences between the XX-2 and Transfiguration. The problem with having too many choices is one can never make a choice! Ahh this hobby....

I am very much hoping the XX-2 controls some of the harshness in the highs and the sibilance. Post cart, speakers are an absolute next purchase!

Roscoeiii,

Thanks man! I think I'm going to jump on the XX-2! I'm assuming that it'll be a fine match with my Dynavector P-75, are there any reasons why I should think otherwise? Also, do you know why the cart would get 8 out 10?

Thanks again, I think this may be a rare opportunity.