OP,
As larryi said sibilance is present in many recordings, no matter what you do is inherently in it, probably not what you listen to but Marc Anthony - Flor Pálida and A-ha - unplugged Hunting High and Low could show you some sibilance which is unavoidable.
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In regards to the analog seeming a bit thin and tipped to the treble in comparison to your digital which is fuller with better soundstage, you may notice the tonearm exhibiting a "Tail up" attitude with the arm resting in the groove towards the end - even with the arm height adjustment at its lowest setting. If so, use of a lightweight (your cartridge tracks light ~ 1.25g suggesting high compliance) 3mm cartridge/headshell spacer installed between the cartridge and headshell using longer screws would allow for a more optimal (level with record) VTA or tonearm attitude.
Your MicroLine™ stylus may have a much better chance of findings it's sweet spot SRA/VTA once basic geometry is improved.
Outstanding turntable :-)
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Desper, I have been following your journey. Since retirement, one of the things I have enjoyed in this hobby was the exploration of different approaches. From this I have gotten to understand what others before me have found, and have a better understanding of what I am actually looking for in a system. |
"Wolf_Garcia", said,
clear as a bell using a 12wpc or so little SEP amp...no clue how hard I'm pushing the little amp (it gets loud...sometimes...often "12" whole watts? Whoa, Why such a powerful amp? I still love my "4" watt, PSE mono-blocks. Now nicknamed "The Twin Beasts". And with 132+Lbs. between them? It works out to 16.5Lbs. of amplifier, per "1" whole watt! You helped me out with those a couple of years ago Wolf! Remember? "The one's with the 300B's". Still pushing the same 98DB speakers too. A "purely resistive load". And thanks again for the help! Um, just to say. From now on? I believe that I'll taking "Ralph's", word on it...... |
What you will/may notice when a tube amp is driving a speaker with low impedance dips is an uneven frequency response, e.g. the speakers may sound "bright".
I read this comment again and realize I probably ignored the the second part of the comment about how this could make the speakers sound bright. This got me to thinking and I re-examined my setup one more time. To make a long story short, I finally realized that while I was moving equipment in and out, I had moved my Synergistic Research interconnects from their customary location between the DAC and the the Preamp. I moved them back and the sibilance is greatly reduced. Thanks for listening, Dsper |
millercarbon wrote: If your $1k table isn't kicking butt on your DAC its not the table. Its the setup, or your choices (AT? Really?).
The rewired tone arm and new interconnects from KABUSA have really improved the sound of the Technics table. Still not sure it is better than the DAC/Transport. The Audio Technica cartridge could be part of my problem as I was not knowledgeable about tone arm and cartridge compatibility. I would have to admit the AT cartridge is a bad match for the light weight Technics tone arm. Anyone interested in a AT150MLX cartridge? Anyway, I am going every way at once now. I think I need to decide, for sure, that the new speakers are keepers; and then understand what other tube amps sound like with the speakers. Thanks for listening and thanks for everyone's advice, which I hope keeps coming. Dsper |
mesch wrote"...
and have a better understanding of what I am actually looking for in a system." I could not agree more as the new speakers and tube amp have opened my eyes. I have definitively learned that I value soundstage width and depth, and tonal textures, more than seeing the "spit on the microphone" detail that I was getting with the Thiels. The Tyler Acoustics speakers, combined with my room and setup, have largely disappeared in my room. I am listening to music and not just speakers. |
^^Good- that's how its supposed to work :) The Audio Technica cartridge could be part of my problem as I was not
knowledgeable about tone arm and cartridge compatibility. I would have
to admit the AT cartridge is a bad match for the light weight Technics
tone arm. Anyone interested in a AT150MLX cartridge? The stylus often suffers in older cartridges- the suspension in the cantilever can perish whether the cartridge is used or not. At that point it will sound tipped up in the treble and harsher/more sibilant than it should. If the cartridge is also a poor match for the arm that certainly isn't helping things! I use an older SL1200 in the recording studio to play back cuts we have made on the LP mastering setup. I use a Grado Gold in that arm and it seems to work quite well with it- tracks well, smooth and detailed. |
@dsper I'm glad you are enjoying your rig, did the sibilance go away? Probably not with some tracks.
We have a cold front coming now here in Florida, time to turn on my amps.
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luisma31,
Maybe I need to get a couple of tube amps as it is turning to winter in the Indianapolis area!
Changing the interconnects certainly helped with the sibilance.
I also took out my AT cartridge and inserted an Ortofon Pro S40, which is supposed to be a "DJ" cartridge but with a better stylus...seems to have made an improvement.
I am learning that changing out speakers is a big deal and has me rethinking everything!
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gkr7007 wrote "...
couple of recommendations. The Carver Crimson 275..." How does the Carver sound compared to others you may have heard? |
Happy New Year everybody,
For those that are interested, I reinserted my Thiels and DNA-500 and got instantly reconnected with what I liked about that combo - there just is a good weight and tone to that combination.
In comparison, the small Tyler Acoustics MM5x's and CJ tube amp are ..well...a bit more thin, less solid sounding. The dynamics and sound stage are better with the Tylers and the CJ tube amp. Detail is more in your face with the Thiels compared to the Tylers, which are just as resolving but more... soft...?...laid back. Both setups have pace but the Tylers with the tube amp seem more musical.
I knew the Tylers (SEAS Excel drivers for tweeters and mids with Dayton 10 inch woofers) were probably not going to be "right" for me as they are more of an entry level speaker. My original goal was just to get a handle on tube amp sound and the Tyler sound; both of which I like.
Tyler is willing to build me a pair Linbrook Signatures if I want them. These come with all SEAS magnesium drivers and Millennium tweeters. I expect that these would provide the weight and tone. They are 48 inches tall, which I think is a good fit in my listening room.
The caveat is that the Linbrooks come with dual woofers so they are a four ohm, 88 dbl speaker. So...now my new question is can one find good tube amps that will drive a 4 ohm speaker that might dip to 3 ohms?
Thanks for listening,
Dsper
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@dsper Ask him if he can wire the woofers in series rather than parallel. It will require a little bit of adjustment in the crossover but otherwise the math of the drivers in the box is exactly the same. Contrary to popular myth, the woofers will be no less easy to 'control'. But it will make the speaker much more friendly to tube amps and all amps will have lower distortion driving a load like that.
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There is a great deal of tube amp experience offered in many of the submissions. The sheer volume of responses reflects the complexity of the variables involved. If there really was a simple answer, we would all have had our respective audio epiphanies long ago. There are MANY very fine tube (and of course solid state) amps in all price points. The salient variable is, simply put, your own personal taste. How many times have you heard that, right? I have been on the quixotic search for 50 years and it has led me everywhere. Fundamentally, the answer is relative. At present, I have a McIntosh MC275VI and a Benchmark DAC3 with a pair of Triangle Signature Theta bookshelves and a REL T5i playing classical and jazz via Tidal. Perfection? Yes, whatever “perfection” means. Somewhat of a minimalist system, it combines new and old tech and sounds exquisite. |
Life is too short for me buying a conventional tubes amplifier: heat and distortion from failing tubes with a life that is shorten by each months....I hate heat.... 😁
Perhaps i dramatize a bit....
But go read about the Berning ZOTL tube technology....
No heat at all....
Super extended tube life... Like more than 10 years of use each day....
NO negative reviews at all, all glowing reviews....
For the low price a steal..... It is what they say....I never try one but it is what i will buy eyes closed....
At least read about ZOTL.....This is my goal with this post.....Read about it....
Berning is a physicist that reinvented tube use in audio.... It is not a frequent event....
Good luck.... |
Man if I was new to tubes, this thread would leave me confused and wondering where to go.
Forget the numbers for a bit. Just go and listen to a few tube amps in your budget range and a few slightly higher in price. Listen to a range of tube types - EL34’s, 6500/KT88, and SET amps such as 300b tubes. You may find you prefer the sound of specific tube types, although newer amps seem to blur the line between how specific tubes should “sound”.
Power is important but it shouldn’t dictate your decision, it’s just a factor. I’ve successfully run low powered SET amps with less efficient speakers, and I’ve had higher powered amps struggle to sound good with super efficient speakers. Try out with your speakers and read forums to see what has worked well with other owners who use your speakers.
A pragmatic factor with tube amps is the number and cost of the tubes. You’ll be tempted to try different tubes which do sound different, and that is far more costly on a 300b amp than with an EL34 amp, and costly on amps that use a lot of tubes or esoteric, NOS tubes. I try to avoid amps that use tubes I can’t easily source online.
I currently use a 300b 10wpc SET amp (Woo WA5) to drive Devore Nines, which are tube friendly. The same amp did well with ProAc Super Tablettes which shouldn’t be as friendly. I’ve owned more powerful EL34 amps (the mighty AirTight ATM3 mono amps) and will shortly own a Leben CS600x, which is 30ish watts. I’ve had failures with well lauded amps (the WAVAC being an example that didn’t work for me) and pleasant surprises with amps that were not well known (remember the Antique Sound Labs)?
There are few rules that seem to be absolute with tubes, other than avoiding pairing with speakers that are low impedance (and not running unless you have speakers connected as was mentioned). Tube amps are fun, wonderful creatures that will delight you, and if you choose well, will encourage you to try different tubes and enjoy. Biasing is not hard with most amps - a ten dollar multimeter and a screw driver is all you need in most cases, and most newer amps use auto bias.
My favorite reasonably priced tube amps (may mean buying used) of those I’ve heard, and which mate with a decent range of speakers, include:
VAC Avatar SE
Leben CS600 series
Line Magnetic amps
Audio Research VT60
VTL amps (newer) |
Yes, whatever “perfection” means. Somewhat of a minimalist system, it combines new and old tech and sounds exquisite that’s is key, it has to work for you @roadsterluver Life is too short for me buying a conventional tubes amplifier: heat and distortion from failing tubes with a life that is shorten by each months....I hate heat.... 😁
Perhaps i dramatize a bit.... Very dramatic :), - agree that life is too short
- agree with the hate of heat (I live in South Florida)
- Heat from tubes, it depends on which amplifier design you get, I have Atmasphere’s and the Russian tubes biased in whichever way Ralph does it it is very good even for South Florida standards, let me put it this way, I feel more heat coming from 2x 6C33C on a SET amp than from 28x 6AS7G from my Atmasphere amps, subjectively
- What distortion? if the tube amp is well designed there is less distortion even at high SPL than with other amps including SS (I am referring to the OTLs here not every tube amp)
- Shortened life? doesn’t the components on SS amps have shortened life too? don’t we too? let me make a case, true you can expect the tubes on my specific amp to fail or degrade in 10 years, the caps will degrade the same way (possibly more). aren’t we using tubes from the 30’s and 40’s sometimes? shortened life is very relative as a term
- I have heard the latest ZOTL at the South Florida audio show (wasn’t the last audio show on earth?) it was good but subjectively I prefer my Atmasphere OTL’s,
I respect your comments @mahgister of course, I just differ a little with some of them. Oh an I know you are not making a case for SS vs Tubes. I am not affiliated with Atmasphere in any way, as a matter of fact I have tried other amps because I was using my OTLs as a reference and I was convinced these would be bettered by other amps (tube and SS) and it turned out to be a complex matter to beat that reference, I have heard at shows (Axpona, RMAF, South Florida) all sorts of amps, including the super expensive ones (ARC, Pass and such), I guess for my taste and my liking OTL provides that magic. |
Good post @davehg I concur. Your post reminded me of - VAC, the Statement 452 I did not like (i think it was paired with ML) could have been the pairing, not that I can afford the amp anyway, that is (was) the fun of audio shows
- Airtight amps, it reminded me these sounded very good, I was much impressed with it, could have been good pairing as well.
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my comments on some of the recent threads below:
1) linear tube audio’s zotl technology by berning does generate heat from output tubes, albeit less than typical transformer coupled tube amps of the same output that drive the tubes harder/hotter
2) power output of a tube amp matters, it matters greatly, esp. in light of the op’s 88 db/w/m speaker efficiency - unless you are in a very small room listening nearfield that speaker efficiency rules out many low wattage tube amps
3) yes most amps that employ the russian 6c33c tube will generate quite a lot of heat
4) ss and tube amps can both be low or high distortion, though tube amp's characteristic distortion tends to be more listenable and less harsh, even euphonic - as always, the specifics of the amp, its design, the tubes employed, and the speaker driven are key to the distortion produced and how it will affect the sound |
Hi Everyone,
What is missing in the above thread is I am considering a pair of Tyler Acoustic Linbrook Signatures.
Because of the dual woofers, they will be 4 ohm,, and not 8 ohm with a sensitivity of around 88dbl.
The top end of loudness for me is about 80 to 85 decibels at my listening position, which is about 8 or 9 feet from the speakers.
My goal was to try to stick to 60 watt tube amps to avoid the heat and very high tube replacement that comes with bigger tube amps.
Everyone's comments and suggestions are appreciated. I am 68 and figure this might be my last all new system and I want to try to get it right; which causes me to ask these ridiculous questions. Thanks!
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