Need "warm" interconnects advice

Hi everyone,
          Thank you for all of your comments. Since than, a lot has changed.

1.
        I picked up a pair of GG Reflection V2 ICs. I like the Silnote Audio  ICs, but they lean more to the detailed side. GGs do have a slight golden hue - not a "warm" sound that changes tonal balance, but more of a timbral change that sounds less detailed and more musical.
They work better with Valhalla speaker cables.

2.
        I built my own USB cable - big difference. Just losing the +5V wire from the cable improved everything a lot.

3.
        I did not build the 40cm speaker cable from my GG Rapture speaker cables. I didn't find them to be resolving enough, they seemed too "dark" in the tonal balance. Too much bass, not enough high tones.
it wouldn't be good for the speaker cable for the midbass-midrange-tweeter part of my system.

4.
       I just lowered the "sponges" on RAAL tweeter for only 2-3mm. It improved sound a lot. Better cohesion with midrange, more natural sound.
       This I would not believe if I didn't hear it myself.
       SAME radiating surface, not smaller. Only lower for 2-3mm.

       I forgot to mention that Valhalla is ONLY on the top 3 drivers in my speakers- 7" midbass, 2" midrange and RAAL ribbon.
       Bass drivers (2 x 12" + 2 x 15") all use Oyaide Tunami speaker cables.

 
       I am very happy with the sound now. Much better balance between details and musicality.
       I agree, our ear also "matures" with time, we  also get used to our system and time changes things.

Hi audiobb.Try the old Purist Audio Design Maximus.They are called water cables.The sound superb.I Have them in my system and they are warm and detailed at the same time.I use them to connect a Krell Kav 300 cd to an ARC LS2BMK2 preamp and an ARC D200 amp.Cheers.Raf

Audiobb, it would help if you let us know your budget & associate equipment to make a more appropriate recommendation.

my friend borrowed an Audio Note ANV IC and when I got it back he said it sounded good for copper cable so I told him it was silver, he was impressed. Their stuff is very nice but pricey.

Good silver is very expensive. But silver can even create a warm and involving sound as well. Like the Accapela pure silver interconnects. My new Audioquest Wel Signatures also sound very musical. They are very expensive.

All of my auditioning and purchases over many years tell me that staying away from silver gives you a chance for warmth. If you use multi-strand wire then it should be Litz and if you like the warmth of Cardas and want better detail then think about Lessloss Anchorwave.

To get where you want to go you'll need good power cords as well. Lessloss DFPC is nicely warm and their Signature loses some of that in favour of better detail and bass grip.

More detail with Cardas ICs? Now that's hilarious!

As for determining neutrality of an IC, if your system has a tape loop, put the IC there and then flip the switch to "Monitor" for that tape loop and notice the difference between the switch engaged and not.

The Gabriel line of cables did what you ask for in my system but I prefer more detail at less expense. For far few dollars, try a used pair of Cardas Cross cables (thick and warm).

"... I worry and analyse less about sibilance or other untoward sounds on less pristine recordings and hopefully just enjoy the music."

Congratulations! It certainly took me a long, long time to finally get away from too heavy a concern with pristine sound and all its "glorious detail" and supposed neutrality. Best wishes for continuing musical enjoyment, regardless of the level of coloration..

Lacee

You have rounded up this post perfectly. I have read this with much interest as I have been on the same merry go round as I am sure many others have too.

There are some valuable contributions here in general apart from the specific cable recommendations which are good too.

Now, I worry and analyse less about sibilance or other untoward sounds on less pristine recordings and hopefully just enjoy the music.

All gear has a "sound"
Unless someone gave you your system, you put it together by yourself.
The voicing of this gear has to appeal to your "innervoice".
And believe me, over time, this inner voice changes as you mature and really start to listen to the "sound" and not just the music.
I enjoy the music, but I don't want my enjoyment to be less than maximum either.
Every system has the potential to sound great or sound less than great,just by how we approach the hobby.

You can throw big bucks into the music and build a huge record collection but, why compromise the sound by skimping on the gear end?
Makes no sense to me.

Neither is ignoring the electricity, the room, all the connectors, the speaker position, what the gear sits on, etc.
All the stuff that splits the audiophile/music lover into choosing between the two camps, one where nothing makes a difference, and the other where everything makes some sort of difference.Difference doesn't mean better,but it's not to be confused with "all sounds the same".

If my system was too "warm" I wouldn't want to add a cable that leaned to the warm forgiving side, unless of course if that was my desire.

Sometimes our desires change.
I realized that all that warmth was robbing me of detail that is just as important to my enjoyment of the music.My tastes changed.
Some folks start off with going for gear that pushes out the most bass, and there's no such thing as too much bass to them.

Later they discover that they've been missing 40% of the midrange of the music.

You can have too much of a good thing.

It depends on how you've voiced your system.
Bass heavy, too top endy?

Find wires or ways to fix the problem or move on to other gear that isn't so coloured.Yes I agree.Been there done that.As have all the others who have gear for sale on this site.

I don't like to use the term neutral because that is a term that can mean different things to different people in the context of what they are listening to.

I would say,don't rely on the system that you've set up at this point to be the ultimate reference system .

Go out and listen to different systems,with different speakers.Listen to panels if you are a cone person, and vice versa.Listen to tubes, listen to well set up vinyl systems.
Listen to rooms that have treatment, and power conditioning.

I think you will, as I did, come to a much better understanding of how much the little things that shouldn't matter ,when combined, really do add up to improvements.

You really never know if your system is too thin or too thick, if you have nothing better to compare it to.

I've been fortunate to have had friends and audio dealers who helped me find my way.

Had I not had the help, I probably would also speculate about wires, and fuses having any effect on the sound of my system.

To me, this hobby is all about discovery, and it's not about standing still and accepting that what came out of the box is as good as it can be.

I've learned otherwise.
It can be a costly education, so be warned when you open up Pandora's box.

Sadly there's no free lunch.

The performance of your gear is a direct result of how much effort you put into your system.

It will sound great with stock this and that,but in my experience, it can sound even better.

But to get it to sound better costs time, effort and money.
For some folks that's not being "all about the music" and being all about the gear.

Unless you hire the performers to play in your room, then it is all about the gear.

And it's all about how you tune that gear to please your inner voice.

At least for this moment in time.

06-25-14: Lacee
Forget "warm" look for uncoloured cables.

I see this comment quite a bit, many times coming from those who use warm sounding electronics or speakers. I guess it always makes me wonder "Why does it matter how you get there"? If you arrive at the same destination. "Uncolored" cables "Colored" gear or "Uncolored" gear and "Colored" cables? What's the difference?

Now I know everyone will say "No, my gear and cables are all uncolored, my system has absolutely no warmth", or they may call their warmth a natural warmth. This BS just makes me smile. Everyone out there tunes their system to suit their own personal tastes. So what difference does it make if you decide to tune the sound with speakers, with an amp, or with cables?

So your advice to this OP would be to buy uncolored cables, sell his speakers and buy warmer sounding speakers? Maybe a tube amp?

Here's a few tips before going nuts trying to find the perfect cables.
make sure everything in your system and room treatment and speaker placement has been optimised.

Get all the basic stuff right first.

People spend a lot of money and time bouncing from one component to the next, and little or no time getting what they own to sound as good as it can.

Most tend to take the path of least resistance.
I don't want to say lazy, but, to get good sound requires a bit more effort, and expecting a set of interconnects to transform a system is asking too much and could be doing more harm than good.

Veiling out distortions with more distortions isn't the answer.

I had a friend sell of a lot of decent gear because certain records sounded harsh.He wanted everything to sound smooth.
I told him some recordings are just bad, and some are good.

If you bring them down to the same common denominator what good is that?
His response was-well everything sounds smooth.

I told him, no, everything now sounds worse, because the better recordings sound no different than the poor ones,hence a degradation in sound for the sake of sameness.

If I paid big bucks for a 45/ lp I would hope to get what I paid for.
It should sound better than most of the standard thin pressings from the 70's for example,not the same.
I wouldn't want an IC so coloured that I couldn't tell the difference.
Forget "warm" look for uncoloured cables.

I auditioned probably 30 different interconnects from the Cable Company to give my slightly bright Cary Audio speakers more warmth and authority. The Purist Audio Museaus's were head and shoulders above anything remotely close to their price range. Amazing how one cable stood out from the rest in it's price range to such a degree (in my system anyway).

I then auditioned the Museaus speaker wire and came to the same conclusion. Ended up putting the PA Museaus cables in my system exclusively. Amazingly it didn't make the system sound too dark or rolled off at all. Just great authority, rich, robust, and timbrally right sounding.

I may be selling a pair or two of RCA interconnects soon since I'm moving to Purist Audio balanced cables now that I have a balanced DAC and pre.

I wish I had tungsten-carbide balls.

3 days ago I placed my large speakers on Aurios Pro + tungsten-carbide balls.
It made a big improvement. The highs are more silky, everything got a certain "sweetness" and "liquid" quality.
Images are better, there is a "floating" quality to the sound now.
Soon I will make Gabriel gold Rapture R speaker cables and test them against Valhalla.
But Aurios already pushed the system in the right direction.

The demo's in the past with the most expensive Siltech cables were Always very dissapointing in the Netherlands.

The people are quite arrogant and they had big stories. But they could never convince with sound. As you all know....hearing is believing!

Steve, you know they are not using enough gold to justify the cost, though I'm sure that Siltech will go on to tell you how high the quality of the gold is.....probably 48K. LOL!

"Zd542,There is an audiogon member that has a pair of speaker cables that cost around 64,000.00.I asked him about them once ,,he replied that for what they did for his system,they are worth the price."

You just made my day. I'm locking myself in my basement and I'm not coming out until I build the first pair of cables that sell for over 100k.

Zd542,There is an audiogon member that has a pair of speaker cables that cost around 64,000.00.I asked him about them once ,,he replied that for what they did for his system,they are worth the price.

I told you.

05-10-14: Zd542
I bet that if someone made a $64,000 pair of cables, someone would buy them.

I present to you Siltech Cables's Emperor Double Crown speaker cables. $66,600 for a 3 meter pair. Of course if you can get by with a 2 meter pair you could get a pair for only $45,000. ;^)

$64K might be a little steep for interconnects. Even the Purist Audio interconnects are only around $12K. Getting back to Earth for a second would you spring for $3K for interconnects?

I bet that if someone made a $64,000 pair of cables, someone would buy them.

just to stir the pot a bit

I found the GG Revelation IC to have the slightest golden hue, just a hint of warmth

to my ears

about 5 years ago

05-09-14: Zd542
How do you tell if a cable is neutral?

That is the $64,000 question! Neutral means many different things to many different people, not to mention room or synergy interactions.

How do you tell if a cable is neutral?

Good cables should be neutral.

Audiobb, of course try the GG cables, I did not state it correctly, my bad. I meant that you should also try some other brands and not stop on GG,
unless you convince yourself that GG are good for your taste and most likely you will, since this move will not cost you anything.
STS, when making your wise comments, you should disclose that you are the maker of GG cables.

Definitely GG Rapture r will be done next. I will post resulst, I am also curious to hear them.
I ordered Furutech spades today, as soon as they arrive, I will make the cables.It will probably take few weeks for these to arrive, but I will post results.
My GG Revelation is older than rapture R, and I still consider it a great IC cable.I wouldn't call it warm, I think it's tonally neutral. However these cables needed 350-400 hours of burn-in.

My experience again and again during my chase for the great cables was that the link between the preamp and amp was the most sensitive to cable changes….in the context of 3D attributes. The constant claim that one must put their "best" IC from source to preamp is total nonsense.

Finally when as system became more and more optimized did speaker cable differences start to be discernible. The one speaker cable that ultimately worked well for me in terms of neutrality was the Purist Opis. Other Purist models were too colored. Also the top Coincident speaker cable was very close. The lesser expensive Coincident cable was a no go. I was then given a chance to hear the Jade Hybrid speaker cable and it was right there with the Opis but now there was just a little more spatial qualities in the sound. I use the Jade today but the Opis would be mighty mighty fine. Perhaps with the Lampizator L6 DAC and the Decca Jubilee cartridge, speaker cable differences would be greater. But I have no desire to go thru the cable quest game at the moment.

I also had a brief experience with a GG IC. It was a tonally neutral cable in my system so this will not add warmth to your system if this is what you seek.

John

05-05-14: Sts
Give the GG' s a try it can't hurt!

I agree! Since Audiobb already has these cables, he might as well give them a listen. Maybe he will not be in such dire need for warm interconnects once he removes the Valhalla speaker cables from the loop. Then he can reassess the sound and decide where he wants to go from there.

I can't really make any reco's until he has tried the GG speaker cables he already owns and see where he stands at that point. Audiobb is right, that is step number 1.
Who knows? At that point he may be looking for more detail again instead of more warmth.

Hi,I would recommend,harmonix golden performance,it is more of everything,and well balanced.Definately not bright.

I did not audition the last version.

Audiobb, the previous(not sure abut current so) gabriel gold rapture and reflection speaker cable are not that good, I hd them in my system and they were lacking bass and sounded artaficial, you are wasting your time playing with them. If you want great speaker cables for the price try Snake river audio signature cables or purist audio venustas or Acoustic Zen Hologram, btw purist audio came out with latest revision (looks like total overhall) called luminis.
Bo1972, did you have a chance to hear this latest revision, any comments?

Jmcgrogan2, Jafox, what is your recommendation for a really great speaker cables that are not cheap but do not cost more than 2-3 grand? I came to realization that cables should be treated as a components to really show potential of the system.

Jafox, did you have a chance to hear JDs hybrid or gold refference speaker cables?
Thanks.

I own the Audioquest 2013 Redwood loudspeakercable. This one goes a lot further compared to the Cardas golden reference. I have done a few tests with the Cardas Golden Reference in the past.

The Redwood is a lot faster in timing and goes deeper. The blacks are superior to the Cardas. Resolution goes further and there is more decay. Individual focus of instruments and voices is a lot sharper. The level of 3D is also a different story.

The Nordost Valhalla was compared to all other ( cheaper) Nordost loudspeakercables at that time a lot less harsh. I sold Nordost for over 9 yeats of time. I am talking about the loudspeakercable. I did not like the interconnects.

When the Valhalla came out it was called the least collored speakercable at that time. Many audio magazines used these words when it came out.

It was not perfect, I have written this here on Audiogon very precise. Because there are missing essential parts for the absolute sound. I call it incomplete.

05-05-14: Bo1972
The Valhalla is very natural sounding, not harsh.

Seriously? Natural sounding? You must be either using very dark gear or you are not familiar with the sound of live music. The Valhalla do have a purpose, to add detail to darker sounding gear, but they are not natural sounding on their own merit. They definitely highlight the upper midrange and treble frequencies. In my opinion they are no more neutral than cables that roll off the higher frequencies for added warmth. Neutral cables should not be adding or subtracting.

05-05-14: Audiobb
This is exactly what I meant.It seems I was too successful in adding speed and clarity to the system.

Audiobb is right, he seems to realize that he wanted to add some speed and resolution, but the Valhalla just took it a bit too far. In my experiences, Tara Labs and Stealth offer cables that are almost as fast and resolute as the Nordost Valhalla, but are not quite as thin sounding.

Cheers,
John

The Valhalla is very natural sounding, not harsh. But other cables can deliver some extra needed warmth.

You Always will listen to all different parts in your set together. That is why I talk about properties of every single part in a audio system.

Audio needs to become a lot more open, just like here at Audiogon. There is a big need for better and more objective advice.

Music lovers deserve a better and higher endresult for the money they are spending.

I really want to thank you all. This is what I love most about audio - the community, the people... the willingness to help.

But especially,Jafox.I just can't believe someone would really loan their mega$$$ cables to unknown person.I'm speechless. Faith in humanity - partially restored.
Thank you so much.

It seems the general opinion is the Valhalla is responsible for this in my system.I think that's right. Actually, I took a lot of effort to tame the "tubey" sound, to add detail, speed etc.

Valhalla was bought after reading JD's review of it.

One must always find that balance between musicality and resolution that suits their own personal tastes. Not everyone is looking for just details, some folks enjoy musicality.

This is exactly what I meant.It seems I was too successful in adding speed and clarity to the system.

I will make another 40 cm bi-wiring pair of speaker cable. I have some Gabriel Gold Rapture R speaker wire that I bought 2 years ago.Then I will see what happens after Valhalla is out.

I guess that should be step No. 1.
Then see what happens.

You will not loose details nor have poor low freq. with the Fusion Romance. It simply presents all of the detail with ease and is a cut or two above the Cardas. Yes, I have owned and heard both :-)

One does not have to give up details and air etc.....with the Romance line.

The mid freq. is maybe the most important part to be happy with the overwhole sound. I agree, but.....when you loose in drive, speed, more different layers in the low freq. and also resolution you can be dissapointed at the end as well. I have seen this many times.

You need to do this very precise. To test different options to see what is best for you.

You only understand what each individual part of your system does when you know the different properties of each single part of your system. And when you don't know, it is difficult to understand what you are changing.

I ask often even to people who work in this business if they are aware of the properties of the stuff they sell. Many times they say; we don't know.

Great advice to 86 the Valhalla. This alone might put you in the quest for a neutral cable like the Silent Source Silver or even the Ref. These are incredibly resolving!

And under no circumstances should you put Cardas "ANYTHING" into your system. These were fine for midfi systems 10-15 years ago, but they piss away the upper-freq detail big time.

The Jade Hybrid IC would be a great thing to try. I actually have XLR and RCA ICs here that I could loan you. I have since updated to the Jade Ref and I have not put these up for sale as for the price, they are so good. I do not know what JD charges for the Hybrid IC these days. But he's a super nice guy to work with and he can give you ideas as to what likely would be a good cable for your system/situation.

I have been keeping the Hybrids for the HT system, but just never got around to put them in there. So send me a note if you'd like to play with them. And I have some Silent Source Silver RCA and Ref XLR if you want to try those sometime. Some cables I just don't sell as they are hard to find later on.

I also have a spare Jade Ref Platinum/Gold RCA IC at the moment due to system simplification, but if you try these, you would likely cry when you had to return them.

Another very good cable is the Stealth Indra if you can get a good deal.

The Purist Dominus might resolve your need for warmth, but once you hear the Stealth or Jade for example, going back to the Purist with it's less-detailed top end would not be easy.

John

I'm looking for warmer, lusher, more romantic, "gold" type of sound - interconnects...
It seems to me my system is a little bit too detailed and precise.

05-04-14: Bo1972
Yess the Cardas Golden Ref makes it a lot more musical. But there is a very big but........

You loose a lot of details, speed and drive in the low freq. This means you loose on the other hand.

It seems as if the OP is aware of the fact that he will lose details and speed. In fact, it seems like that is the game plan. One must always find that balance between musicality and resolution that suits their own personal tastes. Not everyone is looking for just details, some folks enjoy musicality.

Of course, that said, there are several ways to go about it. One can either find the source of the too much details, which in my opinion is the Nordost Valhalla speaker cables, or they can find warmer, sweeter cables to help offset the detail overload that the Valhalla are capable of presenting. The Fusion Romance, Cardas Golden Cross, Jade Hybrid are all very warm recommendations. The Cardas Golden Reference, KCI Silkworm+, and Purist Audio would also help warm up the sound to a lesser extent.