Start with a couple of dedicated lines. One for your source and one for your amps/pre. Listen to what you've got. Not happy, yet? Think you can do more with your electric? Next stop power conditioning. Oodles of threads, on this one. I'm not a Monster fan, but the sky is the limit on this one. I would treat your electric as another fundemental component in your system. Ok, where were we? Yes, power conditioner. Want to be, even, more happy? Excellent power cords. Not happy now? You'll have to find another component to upgrade. Here's the deal:
dedicated lines+power conditioning+power cords= electric nirvana. Will cost you, but the results will set you free.
peace, warren |
I would investigate "balanced power" and isolatation transformers prior to using any "power conditioner" with a power amplifier. Yeah and 20 amp dedicated lines go without saying - unless you live somewhere that you do not own. To me "clean power" is probably "dedicated" and "isolated" power and not necessarily "conditioned" power. Or maybe Twl's solar powered batteries and SETs. heheheh. ;-) |
Warrenh,
Thanks for the response. You are right. The sky is the limit. Unfortunately, my budget is @ $500 right now. I can either spend $500 on a regulator or all on power cables. Currently, the budget is not feasible for both. Since I do not plan to live in this house long, it is why I hesitate to install dedicated lines. As I am not an EE, I suppose that having some electricians to install dedicated lines will exceed my el cheapo budgeto. :>)
One of the reason I like to look into this matter because after watching a movie, the amp is left on while the pre/pro is turned off via remote control, I could hear small humming noise in my speakers. If the amp is turn on for the first time in the day and the pre/pro is not on yet, I don't hear such soft buzzing sound. I have read many threads, and I realize in my specific case, there can be many factors, such as ground loop, amp & pre/pro w/ high noise floors. For pre/pro, I'm waiting for the Fosgate FAP T1+ to be released whenever those guys are ready.
Actually, I'll rephrase my question. Does any A'gon veteran knows any "flu shot" to preven rookie like me from getting the bug? Maybe I'll spend $500 on that to cure it all. :>) |
Aroc,
According to the threades, I have read that some A'gon members plugged their surge protectors, such as Monster HTS 700, into the back of power regulators, such as Monster AVS 200. Can this combination provide continuous, consistent, isolated, and clean power, possibly in lieu of isolated line?
I have never been a fan of Monster b/c I think that their products are like Bose. However, when it comes to high end power conditioner, regulator, and surprisingly Monster amplifier, I have read different results. Perhaps, these can be the results of the "halo effect," i.e. people give rave reviews b/c they invest their forturnes in those rigs. So who is better to consult than A'gon members for sound advice. :> )
Sorry to mention Slappy in here, but I have enjoyed reading most of his humours posts, and according to one of his posts, his draw dropped after listening to a 2-channel Monster amp. I like Sean postings too, but I can't modified 1/8th of things that he does to improve his rigs 1000X more for 1/160th of retail costs. Therefore, DYI is not in the picture as I'll settle for good preowned stuffs.
Thank you for all your feedback. |
With a $500 budget, I would get two PS Audio HC UO's. Dedicated lines would be next next on the list. |
When you can set aside $1199, go for the Running Springs Haley. This 6 outlet conditioner will take care of all of your clean, stable power needs. All of the Running Springs products are non coloring and non restrictive. We just installed a Haley in a full Marantz theater and it really took command of the issues. The 50" Marantz plasma video performance also went to the next level. |
Hi Lej1447.
Dedicated lines???If you own your place,and want but don't know how to run two lines for your system.Here is the basics:
First check your service panel for the brand(sticker)and see if you have available spaces for extra breakers.In most cases you should have room for additional breakers.Go to Home Depot and tell the guys there the brand of your electrical panel.They should then give you the proper breakers that fit your panel.Buy two 20A breakers and enough 12Ga electrical wire that will run from your panel to your system.Account for the extra turns you might have to go with the wire.Always buy more than you need.Turn off the main switch of you panel to cut the electrical power in the home.When you take the cover off your panel you will then see how the rest of the breakers are connected.Just plug the breakers in and connect the the wires(you just bought)white-black,ground following the colors like the rest of existing breakers.One thing though you should feed the wires from the panel to the location of your system(follow the baseboards or best to do in wall installation)first and then proceed with the panel connections.If you do surface installation another words 'follow the baseboards" you can buy(a must) special tubing from Home Depot that's designed to house the wires out of harms way.The best ones are metal and they open ,come with elbows so that you can go around corners.At the end of the wires connect the 20A receptacles.It is easy and I am sure you can manage.
I am not an electrician by trade,but I've done the above in my home several times.I am a DIY,kind of a person.
Best luck.
George |
Hey guy, take it from somebody who has been there. I did the panamax,monster, and other various "conditioning' products. The cheapest and best bang for the buck is to install a dedicated and isolated line. You can go for the very resonable materials found at your local H-Depot, or for not that much more go for the products dedicated to audio found on this site. Just remember this; All Good Sound Begins At The Wall!!. An isolated line will help to get rid of most of the line noise. This type of line is used in hospitals,computer centers,and wherever sensitive electronic equipment is in use. Depending on your panel box to system configuration your cost could be very minimal, approx $100.00-$200.00. Then look into a good power cable.
As far as your "flu shot" I'll be the first to inform you that its too late. If you are on this forum you've got the bug! The quest to improve your audio system will always be a matter of importance for you, get ready for a long and interesting journey.
Rodge
|
Thank you Yioryos. It seems easy and very informative. Besides, Yioryos, do most of you hire some body else to do it, or do you DIY? Do most of you run behind the baseboard or inside the wall?
I have to spend time to think about this b/c I have crown moldings on ceiling with speaker bi-wires running behind them already. I have wood floor with baseboard as well. Circuit breaker box is far from the audio gears. I am not sure how to run them along the wall and entry door or patio door. Do they have to run inside conduit? |
Lej14447,
Yioryos has given you a good insall procedure to follow. If you have a basement or crawlspace utilize it, run the wires there, exposed is ok just get some wire staples to keep things in place.
As far as the wire reccommended go with a 14/3 or better a 12/3 wire. This is important for noise control. Inside 12/3 wire you will find 4 wires, black, white, red, and a naked ground wire. The bulk of all line noise comes from the non-shielded naked ground wire, don't use it for ground, instead use the shielded red wire for ground, get some green electrical tape and wrap the exposed red wire, this will help to avoid confusion if someone else looks at your panel box. Green is the universial color to indicate ground.
I did this same procedure to an audiophile type isolated outlet and found it to be a huge improvement over a standard dedicated outlet.
Good Luck
Rodge |
Rodge827,
Thanks for the good tips. It sounds so easy and fun that I want to drop every thing and run straight to HD now. :> )
Actually, let me check the breaker box to see if I have any extra slot and think of a way to conceal the wire for WAF.
Ever run those wire inside the wall and patch them up? If I decide to run between the wall, should I try to run those wires along with those already near the outlet? |
Lej1447,
It is always best to try and run your dedicated line on its own path. However, in a finished construction insallation, this may present a problem. If you have no choice but to run your line along the same path so be it, but try to keep them seperate. As far as patching holes in the wall that would be your choice. I have an extensive backround in finish construction and patching wall holes can be a real PITA, blow-out patch + joint compound + dry time + 2nd coat of joint compound + more dry time + sanding mess + paint matching..... Get the picture. Try to make as few holes in the finished wall as possible, less work for you.
Hope to have been some help.
Good luck,
Rodge |
Rodge827,
Oh man, I got the pretty PITA picture. :> ) Along the new baseboard, it is.
So you have tested all the toys, such as Panamax AC and Monster AVS, against the dediclated lines. Is the difference substantial? Can you tell that the amp is not restricted and bass is more tight as most have written on A'gon? No more humming problem? What is your listening preference? |
lej1447,
Lets clarify a few things:
A "dedicated line" is a line from one breaker to your system.
An "isolated line" is a dedicated line with an isolated outlet in use. An isolated outlet is a specific type of outlet, that looks different from a normal duplex. When you go to H-Depot ask to see an isolated outlet, and compare the two. At H-Depot the isolated ones are orange with a small triangle on the face, weigh more, and cost about $18.00. There are also vendors here on A-gon who sell isolated outlets for audio. Look in the tweeks section for a few. These will cost you more than H-depot approx; $40.00. This is the type of line I am using. All together this tweek should run you about $100.00 -$150.00, breaker, isolated outlet, 12/3 wire,etc.. All of this type of outlet have the small delta on them and will state "for hospital use" on them.
So to answer your questions:
1) Yes the difference is substantial, at least in my system it was.
2) Your bass problem may or may not have something to do with your power situation.
3) Your humming problem may or may not be cured by this process, without being at your place, a true diagnosis of the problem is next to impossible. In other words many things can cause an amp to hum, Dimmer switches, halogen lights, AC units, an improperly grounded panel box, etc...
4) Mostly acoustic jazz, blues, some new age, art rock, whatever i feel like listening to at the moment, i have a pretty large disc library.
Doing an isolated line is just a begining point. Will it cure all your problems? Maybe
My system consists of: 20amp breaker, Cryoed 12/3 wire approx. 50', Cryoed iso outlet, BMI Shark IPLC, to various BMI power cords.
One other thing, this type of line does not offer any surge protection, most of your main streem line conditioners do.
An iso line is just the begining you may still need some sort of conditioning, or surge protection.
Remember all good sound starts at the wall, after that take it as it comes.
Rodge |
how do you people feel about the different receptacles
(commercial,hospital) on the dedicated line.
I am in the process of setting this up and wonder if
the expensive hosp. grade is really worth it on a dedicated line. I also would like to know if isolated is worth it too.
Sorry LEJ1447 if this post is interrupting your thread. |
Saki70,
It's all valid. I have the same question as you do, but I have not gotten there yet as I hope the dedeicated lines will do. If not, that may be next. If hospital receptacle is the case, I can always get electricuted at home first, check myself into the hospital, and try to remove those receptacles at night. How many do A'gon members need? :> ) Actually, I have seen some ads for those hospital-grade receptables, but I haven't seen any review or feedback from any audiophiles. |
Saki70,
When I first set up my system, about 6 years ago, I had an electritian install a standard dedicated line (20amp breaker,12/2wire,$.89 Leviton outlet). I had all sorts of line noise issues, and then got onto the line conditioning merry-go-round, after time and many dollars later I had achieved an acceptical degree of success. Or so I thought.
I found out about this Iso line at my local H-Depot. While searching for materials for another project I struck up a chat with the sales guy helping me. Truns out he teaches electrical engineering at our county vocational school. He told me about the iso line and how he rewired the computer room at the school, he recieved much praise from the faculty, the screens were much clearer and the computers worked alot better. So I thought this must be good for audio, and it was.
Think about it, in relation to system cost, this is a very low cost up-grade.
Perhaps a question to the guys selling the better outlets would be a goood start.
Albert Porter is selling his "porter pots" in the conditioner section of this site. Check him out he has been around a long time and is a very respected A-gon member.
Hope you get the answers you are looking for.
Good luck,
Rodge |
Lej1447 regarding your 11/10 question to me, sorry I can't connect on two monster products used in series like that. You might want to email someone like Mike VansEvers to discuss power conditioning.
all power conditioners "sound" different. The trick is to find one that sounds "better than" unconditioned power to your ears in your room with your system and music with your power. IT's all a matter of tradeoffs. I doubt you can get really good clean power without perhaps generating it yourself, ala Twl. But maybe you can get close enough? |
