Need a sut for Hana ml

Alrighty then. xf 18! Enjoy.

My complicated method also resulted in recommendation of x factor 18, gives me some confidence in what I thought I remembered about what I seem to think I somewhat learned!

I purchased a SUT  from nclayton on eBay it’s a cinamag  3440 ah ,it wired   for 4 positions  1/9 600 ohms 1/12 337 ohm 1/18 150 ohms witch I use ,and a 1/36 with 370 ohms he builds them very nice, priced right. Three is one on eBay right now.

@fedie what SUT did you  end up using for your hana ML?

;-) great to hear

Hi, it has about  50 hours on it , it’s the best cart I have , it’s great on vocals, and jazz ,which I mostly listen to ,all the bass lines , rhythm ,  and top end , are all there, and easy to follow, this cart has stand up bass and acoustic guitar texture, with some nice tone on horns, I can tell the difference between a alto and a tenor sax ,it not the best at classical music ,good but not great. There  is a review in a Australian  mag on line of cart, he uses the stylus guard to set it up.should be easy to find google Hana .I  am enjoying it , well worth it asking price. What more can I say.

some many months of listening now in, how does the story turn out ?

making a decision is a wonderful thing, congrats and enjoy

First, I like to thank everyone for their help on the situation ,a friend came over with a sut with 3 different settings I settled on 1:18 at 150 ohms , plus he is in the process making resistors for my 1:10 sut . I think I judge the cartridge to fast, it brand new ,Its starting to settle in , and sounding like some reviews stated , the Hana SLwas very good ,the ML very very good. Once again thanks for your time and thoughts on my situation.

Mulveling, Although it's a fine distinction, his phono stage should add 62db of gain, not 60db, with a 1:10 SUT into the  (42db) MM section OR direct into the (62db) MC section, either way. The resulting output would be fed to a linestage before going on to the amplifier and speakers.  So, a lot can depend upon the gain of the linestage, if any, the input sensitivity of the amplifier, and the efficiency of the speakers.  We know nothing about the latter 3 factors.

The OP wrote on 01/02: "It sounds much different at 100 ohms tone wise better , but noisy to much gain, so I think maybe 150 to 200 ohms will do. The Hana sl sounds good at 470 ohms the Hana ml sounds to stringent "
Of course, noise and too much gain ought to sound different, so I am not sure about the problem, but either way, "too much gain" doesn't make me think he needs a SUT wtih a higher turns ratio.  And I don't know why one would conclude that increasing the value of the phono load resistor (as per the quote) would help either problem.  Since his Cary evidently provides a 68K load at the MM inputs, the actual R seen by the cartridge through a 1:10 SUT should be 680 ohms, not 470 ohms.  Anyone could be forgiven for thinking the load would be 470 ohms, since the MM standard is for 47K ohms.

60dB is certainly not too much gain for a 0.4mV cartridge. That nets an output of 0.4 V, which should certainly not be overloading anything within the phono stage or downstream of it. Something else must be going on if it seems too noisy. 

Any SUT 10x - 20x should work fine with MM mode, but as noted the Cary's MM input impedance is unusual - but in general, don't get too hung up on loading numbers with SUTs (unless you have an egregiously bad mismatch); small loading differences from a SUT are not as sonically tweaky as for active stages. 

Personally I'd try a SUT 15x or 16x. But since you say the MC mode sound is not good, I'd be suspect of the Cary altogether and maybe consider replacing it at once with a SUT and new MM stage.

I think at this point we need to hear from the OP.
in my opinion, the Hana ML with its 0.4mV output and 7-ohm internal resistance is a typical LOMC. A solution that works for it would work for a wide variety of other LOMCs that produce between 0.25 and 0.5 mV output. But the solution has to fit also the Cary ph301 and the downstream components in his particular system.

lewm

As I mentioned/hoped, others should catch any mistakes I made. Thanks for pointing out OP’s particular phono stage resistance is 68k, not 47k (my errant assumption was ’normal’ 47k).

My initial and specific answer ’x factor 14’ is far from complicated. (into 68k, I now say x factor 16)

Then I yapped about how I came to that conclusion. That’s complicated.

Get a SUT with optional loading is not complicated advice.

Find a SUT that fits your existing or future cartridge’s specs is complicated.
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The yap (here and prior) was for OP and/or anybody following to be able to figure this out on their own.

It’s inverse: The higher the x factor, the lower the resultant impedance ’shown’ to phono stage will be. OP’s cartridge .4mv signal strength and coil impedance of 7 is a particular challenge.

Many people love that cartridge. Some, not all, know what their phono mc stage or their SUT is doing. Sounds good, great. OP is asking what might work for him, using a SUT.

OP started with Too High as his problem. He needs to determine HOW HIGH a final signal strength is ok for his system, to get the resultant impedance low. (even lower to work withhis phono stage’s 68k impedance).

x factor 16 = 6.4 mv signal strength, his 68k phono stage increases the resultant impedance to 265.
x faxtor 18 = 7.2 mv ..... resultant impedance lowers to 209.

IS 7.2 mv tooo high?

OP’s 68k phono stage impedance exacerbates the problem, it raises OP’s/ANY coil’s resultant impedance by 45%. (68k divided by 47k = 1.45)

x factor 14. into ’normal’ 47k: resultant impedance ’shown’ is 240. into 68k that is 345 (+45%)

The basic way to lower ANY coil’s resultant impedance shown to ANY phono stage: is by increasing the x factor which increases the xfs, which lower the impedance shown.

Precisely the problem here, as the OP is needing a lower x factor to solve his phono stage’s ’too high’ signal boost, while needing low resultant impedance shown.
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Resistors: as I said, I don't understand that, but it appears to be the way to more precisely solve this.

Bob and Dover, but didn’t the OP say in his original post (or OP) that he senses less gain via the 1:10 SUT into his MM input (which provides 42db gain per the owners manual on line) than he gets by using the MC inputs of the same preamplifier, which provides 62db gain, again according to on-line information? Further, he felt that the latter hook-up provides too much gain, which is odd because according to my calculations his 1:10 SUT into 42db MM section gives the same total gain as his MC stage alone (62db in both cases). If he goes to a 1:20 SUT into his MM stage, he will have 68db total phono gain, and he will be feeding 1V into his linestage section, albeit there will be a benefit if he wants to get closer to a 100-ohm load on the cartridge. I guess only the OP can sort this out.
Incidentally, the MM stage in the Cary PH301 is evidently not "standard" in that it provides 42db gain into a 68K load. (See above and above that.)  Furthermore, there are MM phono stages that provide anywhere from 39db gain (Ypsilon) up to 45db and even 50db gain. So I don't know how you can standardize on the idea that the Hana ML per se requires a 1:20 SUT.

Granted, there are some MM phono stages that are not the standard of approx 40 db and approximately 47k ohms.  If it is not a standard MM input, then I stand corrected.  However, my statement stands.  The ML at 1:20 into a standard MM phono stage sounds great, better than any other ratio.  The SL at 1:10 also sounds great.  If you don't believe me, try it yourself. 

@bobsdevices 

I have used both the Hana SL and Hana ML as demo cartridges at audio shows, and have experimented with many different step up ratios. The Hana SL is perfect at 1:10. The Hana ML is perfect at 1:20. I highly recommend 1:20 with the ML into MM inputs.

Could you explain why you think the Hana SL (0.5mv output) is perfect @1:10 which generates 5mv into the moving magnet input, but on the other hand you claim that the Hana ML (0.4mv output) is perfect @1: 20 which generates 8mv into a standard MM input.

You are claiming that for the Hana ML 8mv into all MM inputs is perfect.
In my experience this is far from the truth, too much gain can result in running the volume pot at the bottom of its range where channel imbalance is at its worst. 

This highlights the problem with using SUTs like you sell, where load and gain are determined by the turns ratio, and much of the time suboptimal loads and or gain structures result, which is what the OP is trying to avoid.

I highly recommend 1:20 with the ML into MM inputs.

How can you possibly make a blanket statement like this without knowing the electrical parameters of the MM input.

I have used both the Hana SL and Hana ML as demo cartridges at audio shows, and have experimented with many different step up ratios.  The Hana SL is perfect at 1:10.  The Hana ML is perfect at 1:20.  I highly recommend 1:20 with the ML into MM inputs.

Elliott, With all due respect, I sometimes don’t know what you are trying to say. I think you make the SUT business much more complex than it needs to be, but that’s just me. My understanding is or was that the OP found he did not like the SQ he got from his cartridge when using a 1:10 SUT, although the gain factor was apparently OK. Whereas, he felt he had too much gain when he hooked up the same cartridge to the MC inputs of his phono stage, which provides a gain of 60db into 100 ohms, BUT he did prefer the SQ in the latter hook-up. I certainly could be wrong, but the question seems to be how to achieve a 100-ohm load with a SUT, in the belief that the "problem" is the impedance seen by the cartridge, 470 ohms with a 1:10 SUT vs 100 ohms with the MC gain stage providing 60db. Yes, he did ask "what ratio SUT should I use". Without changing some other parameters, there is no simple answer to that question that will give the proper amount of gain into 100 ohms. Going down in step-up ratio, e.g., to 1:5, will result in a higher net impedance (>470 ohms, or less of a load on the cartridge). Going up in step-up ratio would put him back in the situation of having too much gain, although we don’t know for sure what is the gain of the MM section which factors into the net gain after adding any SUT.

OK, I broke down and did some research on the Cary PH301. Apparently the MM stage presents a 68K ohm resistance, with 42db gain. First of all, this means the cartridge "sees" 680 ohms (68,000/100) across a 1:10 SUT, not 470 ohms. (We are dividing the resistance at the input to the phono stage by the square of the turns ratio of the SUT to calculate the net load seen by the cartridge.) The MC stage of the PH301 gives 62db gain according to the owners manual on-line, not 60db. Interestingly, after the SUT provides a voltage gain of 10X, which is 20db, the net gain with a 1:10 SUT into the MM section is 62db (42db + 20db), exactly the same as the gain achieved with direct connection into the MC section. So I have to back track on something I wrote above and also ask the OP, is the gain really detectably different via your SUT into MM vs direct into MC? Also, maybe the SQ difference is indeed related only to the difference in impedances seen by the cartridge. Anyway, if the OP prefers the SUT connection for its SQ, he could change the value of the MM load resistance, either by paralleling a second resistor of the value needed to reduce the net resistance to 10K ohms, or by simply removing the 68K resistor and replacing it with 10K. (10K on the phono side will give the cartridge 100 ohms across the SUT, 10,000/100.) After that, the MM and MC inputs will be exactly the same as regards both gain and cartridge loading. Case closed.

reading about that ELAC unit, they say:

" Want additional proof? It front-panel even features a loading meter to assist with effortless dialing-in of cartridge settings."

that's quite interesting IMO

after you get it right:

your new stylus profile may be giving a brighter sound than your sl

https://www.analogplanet.com/content/high-performance-high-value-hana-ml-and-mh-cartridges

"The MicroLine stylus has an even narrower “contact patch” than the already “severe” Shibata stylus used on the Hana SL. It more closely resembles the cutting stylus itself and so is theoretically capable of extracting more information from the grooves, particularly the higher frequencies and especially those located closer to the label area."

he ran it thru this MM/MC phono stage which has rear switches to adjust loading

ELAC - PPA-2 Alchemy Phono Preamplifier

https://www.musicdirect.com/phono-preamps/Elac-Alchemy-PPA-2-Phono-Preamplifier

I don't understand adding resistors as has been recommended, however, from my earlier x factors = xfs = resulting impedance calculations, that might be the ideal way to go.

http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html

calculator near the bottom of the page:

"So let's turn this around. What resistor should you put in parallel with the 47k phonostage to change the loading to a desired value? Note, you can only go lower in value, not higher (negative answer means unrealizable)."

example: (I plugged in desired 140, turns ratio (x factor) 14

Desired Loading: 140, Turns Ratio: 14:,  Resistor = 66 k

like I say, I don't understand, but they go on to say:

"You can also put the parallel resistor on the primary side, but then the value is the above divided by the turns ratio squared."

lewm

OP's original question is, which SUT?

I'm trying to recommend an x factor, so that OP can choose a SUT with an x factor for that cartridge's combo of signal strength .4mv and coil impedance of 7 ohms.

I came up with x faxtor 14 which yeilds signal 5.6mv, 240 ohms out

What Dover said . Plus, I gather you are judging the sound of the ML when you play it through the MC section of your preamp with a 100 ohm load compared to the sound going through a step up transformer into the moving magnet section of the very same preamp. In doing so, you are comparing apples and oranges. There are more differences between the two set ups than just the difference in impedance seen by the cartridge in the two set-ups. 

It sounds much different at 100 ohms tone wise better , but noisy to much gain, so I think maybe 150 to 200 ohms will do. The Hana sl sounds good at 470 ohms the Hana ml sounds to stringent

The SL and ML have similar gain - 0,5mv and 0.4mv respectively, so gain should be the same, The ML is a crisper sounding cartridge, the SL is soft sounding. Although the SL is 30ohms vs the ML 8ohms, what you are hearing is more the cartridge sound than the loading/gain implications, and you might be chasing a rabbit down a hole trying to fix it. Have you rechecked set up including VTA which will need to be more exacting with the ML stylus profile.

My simple answer: x factor 14, see below.

I’m still new to the world of MC and SUT, others will correct me if wrong. I learned a great deal here after I started this thread about SUT for .3mv; 10 ohm resistance

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/which-sut-for-3mv-10-ohms-mc-cartridge-into-3mv-mm-input-sens...

My conclusion was to choose a SUT with a few variations, options, perhaps factory retrofit, to solve both current and future cartridges. Can CARY factory modify yours? In a way you can revert or modify in the future?

btw, the impedance settings on the front of a SUT are not the same as the resultant output, it doesn’t know what your cartridge is sending or it’s coil’s impedance.
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My choice was AT33PTG/2, output .3mv; 10 ohm impedance. Your Hana ML seems quite similar .4mv out, 7 ohm impedance, I like it’s separation and tight channel balance, that’s why I picked mine.

But, the combo of a bit stronger signal with lower coil impedance can be problematic. You need to find the highest signal strength you can work with (highest x factor you can use to control the impedance that will be shown to the phono’s 47k.

The simple formula for impedance is to use 10x your coils impedance as a general goal for the amount to show to you preamp’s 47k input (yours: 7 x 10 = 70, go up from there). OEM simply says greater than 100 ohms.

Thus you want your phono input 47k divided by x factor squared (xfs) to be up/dn from 70. 47k divided by 70 is xfs of 670, that’s a high x factor of 26.

Problem: .4mv x xf 26 = 10.4mv, much too high signal.

if x factor 16, then signal = 6.4mv (some loss, still high). Now, xfs = 256, 47k divided by 256 = 183 (much closer to 70).

if xf 14: signal 5.6mv; 47k div by xfs 198 = 240 ohms to phono perhaps your best choice.

if xfactor 12, signal then 4.8 before a bit of loss, 47k divided by xfs 144 = 326 ohms, ’more above’ 70 ohm guidance, but within OEM guidance,

It sounds much different at 100 ohms tone wise better , but noisy to much gain, so I think maybe 150 to 200 ohms will do. The Hana sl sounds good at 470 ohms the Hana ml sounds to stringent 

You lost me somewhere. You say the factory recommends a load of greater than 100 ohms. You also say correctly that your 1 to 10 SUT gives you a net impedance of 470 ohms. In other words, the cartridge sees 470 ohms when it looks toward the phono stage. According to the factory information you quoted, this is perfectly OK. 470 is greater than 100. What’s the problem?

Using a step up transformer with a turns ratio of 1:5 should give you a gain of roughly 13.98dB.  

The reflected impedance will be dependent upon the input impedance of the phono stage you are using.

Many phono stages will commonly use an input impedance of 47K Ohms.  If this is true in your case, your cartridge should see a resulting impedance of roughly 1880 Ohms.

Here is a link to a calculator that can help you with the variables... http://www.mh-audio.nl/Calculators/StepUpTransformer.html

Happy New Year!

Can you inform me on the gain and ohms with the 1:5 sut I would appreciate it very much. Thank you for your time.

+1 solypsa, or 1:5 SUT.

I know which is less expensive. The 10.00 RCA and resistor..

Still, it needs to be loaded correctly..

Make a BIG difference in those sonic nuggets your lookin' for..AY?

Regards

You will need to add a parallel resistor to lower (numerically) the load for your 1:10 SUT. http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html