I don’t want to deviate from Jay’s thread, but a quick comment about improving the sound via streaming. I recently added a network switch and to my ears, in my system, adding the switch slightly improved detail. For the money spent adding the switch is a no-brainer for my system. Not night and day difference, but enough to convince me to add the ENO streaming system to complete my digital setup.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
Yep - if you got the cash then do it and get more performance. I just don’t think it’s the wisest move to buy a 30k DAC and having to spend 60k to beat it. That extra 30k is better used on a better amp or better speakers for that matter. Manufacturers know we aren’t exactly the brightness lightbulbs in the tanning bed so they take advantage of that. They play tricks with our head to get us to buy the "next great thing". Think about it: what do they do to create a better product? It’s simple... Same bs they all do: -external power supply -batteries to get us off the grid-better ground -mundorf capacitors -bigger transformers That’s it folks. Those are the tricks they have up their sleeve all the damn time. For instance, look at the new aurender n30. What do you see? An external power supply. You don’t think they have known all this time that the n20 needed an external power supply to be better? OF COURSE they knew...but they wait for us to buy and then they magically have the solution for a better unit. The writing is on the wall often times. DACs are maxed the hell out especially if all you do is streaming. They don’t know what to do next to release a new DAC. Oh wait: they know what to do so we buy again: New chip New chassis Isolate it better There isn’t much else to do with DACs. Again, if you’re streaming, it doesn’t matter...you’re playing the same damn songs you’ve always played. Don't get me started on the DCs built in filters... What a joke. They don't do a damn thing. You all want to go buy the hype? Go on and buy your next great DAC. Burn 20k on top and play the same songs from tidal and qobuz. I have been trying to find the difference between qobuz and tidal here and I'm like hmmm... You sure both streaming services aren't owned by Jay Z? Because most songs sound like it's coming from the same damn DJ that's playing the music from the other end of the network... Sh!t i forgot to pay my tidal subscription... |
I'll preface my comments with if money was no issue I would spend $100K on a DAC.I don't begrudge anyone that spends their money on expensive items no matter if it's cars, jewelry, audio, or anything else. I agree with Jay that, "DACs are getting Stupid expensive", but I submit everything in this hobby is getting stupid expensive. My experience has taught me that "we" spend a significant amount of money to receive marginal improvements. Although marginal, once heard it's hard for many of us to ignore the improvements and we spend our money. I hear the differences between the two DACs and depending on my "system" I could see owning either one. |
Here’s a quick video from today: Antileon Evo with DCS Rossini direct. NO PREAMP And the new mic. https://youtu.be/Np6Ix4LVe9s |
If you really want a lot of views you could review really low priced stuff that you don’t mind taking the hit on, and then after doing a shootout instead of just declaring a winner, you take a sledgehammer to the loser and just fricken destroy it, like the Who or Nirvana used to do with their guitars. That’d get 100k views. Probably not so politically correct, but ..... Yeah, I’m bored waiting for the reveal ............ disclaimer: don’t do that who knows maybe you’d accidentally electrocute yourself. just a joke post, not serious (unless it's a goldmine, then i want a cut) |
@chazzzy007 Yes, I can tell you that the ER is no snake oil for sure. It just drops the noise floor tremendously and because of that you can hear much further into the music, it just becomes more natural. And as you found adding an LPS also helps too. In the case of adding an LPS to the ER, it was nearly the same improvement as the ER brought. You don’t need the LPS to hear the improvement the ER brings but it sure is another step up. I recommend both. I think Jay has an ER as well. |
@kren I have 2x Puritan Labs 156 in my system with a full loom of all their power cables. Absolutely no hum in my system and zero reduction in soundstage and dynamics in my 2 channel AND home theater systems. I have a BAT VK6200 which is 5x200 watts per channel and quite power hungry. The 156’s are pretty incredible. Not very pretty but to my ears they are pretty SOTA in terms of performance. EDIT I find the 156's to be reference neutral. No coloring of the sound whatsoever. |
Kren0006 1,421 posts06-23-2021 3:28am The points about life being short is a good one though, as has hit way too close to home for me recently. One of my very best friends was murdered senselessly about two months ago. Mid 40s, leaves wife and kids. Take advantage of every day and don’t take anything for granted. Never know when time will be up. WOW... So much evil we’ve seen this last year. Massive riots. Crime way up. I spoke to a friend of mine who had a childhood friend that just one day last year in 2020 decided to murder his mother. He lost his job and just went nuts during quarantine. |
Thanks all for the great conversations above. Man i wish you all lived closer so we can do this here in person and i can interview some of you about your own rig. I'd love to learn more about your situation and what you are doing to make it better! With regards to the Taiko, yes it's $28-30k... Big money |
@rsf507 @kren0006 I agree with you both on the Viber6 conversation. I've been perhaps a little too mild in my few postings asking for Viber6 to take a step back and hear what others have to say. If we could all just agree that none of our positions are "absolute" it'd be a lot easier to have a conversation around here - I think most do understand their opinions are indeed just theirs, but EVERYONE needs to see this bigger picture. Though most don't seem to speak up, I'm sure others wish that the constant interjections of absoluteness or comments on "hostility" do not add nor apply to this thread. Finally, in regards to "hostility", I for one do not see Kren's or anyone else' comments as hostile to Viber and I hope that Viber can understand that when someone posts an opinion counter to his that it is just an opinion. Constantly trying to get others to come around to his point of view is not looking good on him nor adding to this thread. As chazzzy007 said, "Let's not dick up our time and the thread here with pettiness". I agree, let's move on. @kren0006 I'm truly sorry for your loss. I think about this from time to time and will be retiring in a few years to spend a lot more time with my couple of amazing friends, hopefully before we all pass on. God grant me time with them. |
Jay, Just some observations and small lessons I’ve learned in choosing a streamer earlier in the year. The #1 thing I learned in choosing a streamer was noise floor. It’s actually how I built my system previously starting at power cords and conditioning. Lower noise floor, more details, more air around instruments, better spatial sense during presentation etc... That ended up being why I bought the Aurender N20 myself. They leave Roon out of the equation for a reason. Noise. How Aurender implements everything is designed around lower noise floor and fidelity. Your Aurender is pretty SOTA. Aurender just came out with a new Halo product by the way. The N30 which is a 2 box solution that further isolates noise by separating power in a 2nd unit. https://youtu.be/bXQwkiSliT0 How much is the Taiko extreme? Just my thoughts on streamers.... |
jmeyers, I have a few recordings in LP and CD versions. From 1982 to 2000, my Denon 305 MC cartridge was pristinely clear, and the LP trounced the CD, which was rolled off and veiled by comparison, really bad like blankets over the sound. Even mid-fi turntables used with receivers were clearer than CD. Now my Denon is still playing music, but it has aged, and the CD is clearer. After maybe 5-10,000 hours of play, it is remarkable to still be playing the music. I will modify the dictum in 1981 when CD's came out--"Perfect sound forever" to say "Good sound nearly forever" (until the laser breaks). After 25 years, CD Player is still going strong. Another disadvantage of the cartridge system is that the sound would change markedly from day to day. As a physical device, it was temperamental. I found it much easier to A/B equipment because of the consistency of the CD sound. |
It is amusing. The results of the DAC shootout are yet to be announced, and yet already this forum's more active participants are fantasizing about what Jay should do next. I confess to being among those fantasizers, and initially I thought "how about a totally different sort of shoot-out"? Being a music lover for decades, there are recordings of favorites of mine which I have on vinyl, CD, hard drive (provided to me as part of a pre-loaded HDD), and, now, via Tidal. Which version sounds best? Thinking about it a little more, I realized I could not obtain an objective answer. Before reaching the point of amplifier via speaker cable to speakers, my vinyl version is impacted by my choices of turntable, arm, cartridge, phono preamp, preamplifier, and related cables; the CD by my choices of transport, DAC/preamplifier (I have a Theta Casablanca, which incorporates an excellent DAC internally) and related cables; the hard drive by the source loaded onto the drive, as well as by my choices of hard drive, DAC, the preamplifier, and related cables; and Tidal by streamer, DAC, preamplifier, and related cables. Obviously, with this many variables, we don't have a situation of just apples and oranges; it is more like apples and screwdrivers. The only standard apparently remaining is not what IS better, but rather what SOUNDS better to the listener. And, ultimately, even that is not the end goal, for all of us listen for our own personal pleasure. The equipment we choose to accomplish the reproduction of a performance in our homes is what enables us to experience real enjoyment from listening, limited only by our individual financial resources. Stepping down from my soapbox, let me say that I simply enjoy Jay's videos and postings (and most of those of fellow contributors). They might even influence some of my future equipment purchases. In the end, however, I buy something, bring it home, set it up, cross my fingers and hope the result is "better" in my system than what it has replaced. Fortunately, doing this has been fun for me for over 50 years. |
i have thought about it, but the Taiko server is big dough... i have received different feedback from different people who have heard it or own it and let's just say it is a mixed bag at this time. Some say Aurender is still better and others say the opposite. It is not a "guaranteed" win for the Taiko extreme. |
I miss blumartini and almarg. Both were extremely knowledgeable and true gentleman....always happy to help a fellow audiophile. Jay I totally agree with your last video about the diminishing returns of DAC's. I believe I would have to spend 30k+ to hear a worthwhile improvement over my Mola Mola DAC. I'm guessing the same would apply to servers. I have heard improvements moving up the Innuos line of servers and going from an Aurender N100h to an Innuos Zenith SE was a very nice improvement all around. You heard the Taiko Extreme at Mike's place and I believe you were impressed with the upgraded USB card Mike had just installed. You have 2 very impressive Aurender servers in house. Have you thought about a server shootout? Or would that put the YouTube crowd to sleep? |
kren0006, Let's be objective and honest. Yes, my views on audio are fringe and freakishly outside the norm. But they are not worthless to some people who realize that I know what I am talking about. I am glad chazzzy came around to value my insights. Electrostatic speakers are enjoyed by only a few, certainly not mainstream a-philes. There are some people like me who value clarity above all else, and are willing to compromise bass power and extension. You are right that most people on this thread have your preferences rather than mine. That doesn't make my views WORTHLESS. That word is still another of your many words with a negative connotation that show that you either do not recognize nor care about your own hostility and negativity towards me. You don't admit to the truth of anything I said in my last long post, whereas I can agree with you to a certain degree on what you just said in your last post. Also, since you said, "I know that offends you" this tells me that you will say whatever you want and don't care if it offends me. I am an honest straight shooter like you, but I have made progress in stating my views without offending people. Ron17, pokey77, and even rbach have made valid points about this and have helped me. However, your continued antagonistic words to me don't help my communications to you and do put me on the defense with you. That is one of my weak points, true, but I have a higher opinion of those people than you on this subject. You are entitled to think, "I’m not going to lie and pretend differently about how I view your audio assessments or the audio notions you promote." The best thing to do is to keep these thoughts in your head, off this thread, and be respectful of me publicly here. But your next statement is good--"And I am not claiming to be any sort of expert and it’s only one person’s opinion." Just don't be the unelected censor of what you think Jay or anyone else wants to hear and avoid. Moderators do that, and they are mainly on the lookout for offensive remarks. As for the audio fringe, most any of the a-philes here would be judged by the mainstream mid-fi and low-fi community to be on the fringe. That's axiomatic, a statement of fact by the number of highenders vs lowenders. No a-phile here is ashamed of being in the fringe of the mainstream world, and they rightly embrace it. But the defining characteristic of audiophiles is not how much money they spend, but their care and attention to subtleties and SOTA innovation. It just so happens that innovators in any field have been on the fringe. They do things that the mainstream thought were nuts, in part because the mainstream wanted to protect their status quo and was envious that the innovator got there first. There is some old wisdom about new things--first they are denied, then ridiculed, then grudgingly accepted as possibly true, then embraced as everyone wants to cash in or benefit from what's new and better. Actually, I was like that with early digital. My analog setup was better and digital was lousy. Almost 40 years later, I now embrace digital sound for its precision, even if sometimes there are unnatural digital artifacts. Things are getting better and better. I hope you get better and better. |
Viber, I’m a straight shooter and I’ll be honest. I think your views on audio are fringe and so freakishly outside the norm that they are near worthless. That’s my personal view. I know that offends you, but that is my opinion. You continually reinforce that opinion by what you post. That doesn’t mean I think you are a bad guy or that you don’t add value to the thread. It’s not personal. Rather it’s based on your audio assessments and the way you present them. As I said, you provide the evidence. I’m not going to lie and pretend differently about how I view your audio assessments or the audio notions you promote. And I am not claiming to be any sort of expert and it’s only one person’s opinion. It’s WC’s thread, not a contest to be liked by as many as possible |
Jay, Yes, thanks for your efforts which have been entertaining throughout these tough times. But most entertainment is just transitory fluff, except for the rare great ones like Seinfeld, Fraser, Jackie Gleason. You have offered shootouts and commentary of GREAT value, which will become classics like those great entertainers. |
chazzzy, kren, You (chazzzy) are a great person, not just in audio. I learned much from you. You have the nobility to apologize for any past negativity you had towards me, although I didn't get too worked up over that, because you were not over-the-top disrespectful like kren. What really makes you noble is your willingness to change your mind when new evidence is presented to you. You have an open mind, unlike kren. You listened carefully and repeatedly and changed your preferences according to the evidence of your ears, without bias or preconceived notions. In fairness, Kren did the same, which is good. But the evidence that you saw that I listen carefully and competently led you to develop a newfound respect for me and my views. Kren has yet to admit that his choice of words WAS hostile ("you don't know what you're talking about" etc, etc) and continues to be demeaning towards me, even indirectly when he just said, "If someone has a lifetime of musical training yet their audio assessments are infantile, then the musical training helps them play their instrument but doesn’t help them assess audio any more than it helps them dunk a basketball. Speaking generally here not about anyone in particular." INFANTILE--is that appropriate? NOT ABOUT ANYONE IN PARTICULAR--what a falsehood--it is clear you mean ME. Kren, you suggested that we agree to disagree. That is a good idea only if certain conditions are met. The main one is mutual respect, avoidance of negativity towards each other. For example, Dave (thezaks) has completely different preferences than I. But he has been supportive of my right to voice my objective findings here without sneering attitudes from others who disagree with my assertions. In Dave's own head, he disagrees with my preferences, and he would not consider the equipment I like for his own enjoyment. Fine with me. Our relationship is truly a great example of agreeing to disagree while maintaining mutual respect. If I came to his home and listened to his home theater system, I would enjoy his system and the experience of being with him. Well, maybe I wouldn't enjoy his system much in my own mind, but I would be in a great frame of mind because he is a great guy and I would find something to enjoy and would praise him for it. So in the future, Kren, please, no direct or implied negativity towards me. I never initiated anything against you, but my negativity towards you was only in response to yours. If you object to any advice I may give Jay or anyone else, don't say that nobody wants to hear it and I should get outta here and write my own thread. That would be the scalding and scolding imposition of your own views, a kind of censorship, the very thing that you criticize me for when you claim that I scold people who have other preferences. How do you know that there is nobody interested in what I say? That's for them to decide for themselves. Good people who disagree with me can ignore me, scroll down and not respond, or if they want to say something, they do so respectfully without negativity. Ron17 is a great example of that. If you agree to these conditions, we can coexist here. But otherwise, a statement that we agree to disagree is merely a license for you to continue to show your negativity towards me. Most international wars are due to this excuse that the countries agree to disagree. So what--they carry on with mutual destruction because they don't respect each other. Chazzzy, wise statement from you--"Too much hardship in 2020. Too much acrimony on this thread." |
Sorry for your loss Kren. Yes - it does put things into perspective. You never know when is our last day here. It's cool to see people trying to apologize or agree to disagree. I'm glad i can at least give you something to be entertained with during these times. You get to virtually play with my system without having to spend a dime and hopefully it makes you realize a thing or two before spending your money. I know some of you have bought mágico speakers, Wilson speakers and even Gryphon amps because of my shoot outs (I've been told this by some of you) so I'm glad i was able to somehow contribute to your journey. Now let's see the DACs and discover which is which. |
The points about life being short is a good one though, as has hit way too close to home for me recently. One of my very best friends was murdered senselessly about two months ago. Mid 40s, leaves wife and kids. Take advantage of every day and don’t take anything for granted. Never know when time will be up |
On the silver v gold choice of cable selection, I agree with the others who said that’s a pretty critical aspect that could dramatically affect choices, potentially. Or not I suppose. But potentially. Kinda funny how WC told us that at the end. Lots of variables at play with this shootout. I’m sticking with my guess (and now chazzys) that msb #1, dcs #2. But in a strange way I kinda hope I’m wrong and it is really the opposite |
With all due respect, Viber doesn’t need to apologize to me or vice versa. We are all adults here. Nothing that has been posted is personal or offensive or hostile. If we are going to put ourselves out there we need to be able to accept if others disagree with us or even think we have terrible opinions, so long as those views are expressed respectfully. That’s kinda normal in life. I usually put a lot of thought into what I post, and he does too I’m sure, we just usually disagree. But yes, we should move on as I’ve been saying. Hopefully today is the day WC reveals the identities of the dacs. I thought ricevs opinion that the diminishing returns WC spoke of in last video applies equally to every type of component. My opinion is that while of course diminishing returns exists in all segments of audio, the curve is probably steeper with dacs. Most of us other than WC are probably trying to find that sweet spot on the curve- I know I am |
Viber I want to apologize. In the past I've been quite demeaning towards you. Your constant lectures about zip cord and talks about treble and how that was so important to you that you use an EQ in your system. TBH because of that as well as your playing in a symphony I thought your hearing quite bad. Viber the deaf Doctor! lolz But on this thread how you picked up those nuances in DAC #1 was quite remarkable. It took me having a SOTA headphone system to do the what you do with your little headphones and PC. Wow... The only thing I ask is that you show more often the graciousness and humility you seem to be quite capable of. I saw your posts about your dad's system and wanting to give it to someone to enjoy. Your dad's own system. Who else here would do that? I know you are much better in real life than the person who posts here under your account. Please do your best to be that person more often. This thread would be much better for it. My apologies to you. |
Jay, I didn’t know blumartini was your friend. Sorry for your loss bud. 2 years ago I lost a childhood friend who went to bed and didn’t wake up in the morning. Boom gone. I know how you feel. I didn’t know Blumartini personally, but on his threads he seemd like such a cool guy. A peacemaker. Always saw the big picture. Thanks blumartini for all your contributions here. RIP That could happen to anyone of us here. Too much hardship in 2020. Too much acrimony on this thread. Let’s make 2021 better than 2020 on Audiogon. |
Nobody cares because it’s irrelevant, but I play two musical instruments with over 12 years of training. But it’s irrelevant. Anyone who is familiar with music can tell what instruments sound like, whether they play or not. It is entirely possible to educate oneself about musical sound and audio quality without being a musician, because the hobby of audio is listening, not playing. If someone has a lifetime of musical training yet their audio assessments are infantile, then the musical training helps them play their instrument but doesn’t help them assess audio any more than it helps them dunk a basketball. Speaking generally here not about anyone in particular. Now let’s move on. |
kren, Don't you agree on anything ? I agree with you on a few things. This shootout has enabled me to discover my agreement with most people on objective qualities of sound, even if we have different preferences. All this is good, which fosters openness. Can you relent and open up a little? That would be nice. |
Jay, Your XLF is the first speaker you've owned that I think is so much better than everything else you've owned that I consider it money well spent. OK, Alexx much cheaper, and second choice. But ricevs' most recent video a few days ago of a cheap system I thought sounded excellent. We would all learn a lot if you can record the same music on your XLF, to see if the recording is so good, or the cheap speaker is so good, or both. I regretfully admit that for business reasons, you are right that you get more out of YT videos where you speak. But as much as you are respected, talk is still not as informative as your great shootouts, such as this latest greatest dac 1 and 2. I did notice that getting up to 5K subscribers was slow as you got close, but after the shootout videos, the numbers increased much more rapidly. Another benefit is how much we learned from each other, which you were happy about, such as how chazzzy and I unexpectedly connected much better than before the shootout. Keep the shootouts going as far as your time permits. Thank you. |
Kren, You are correct about a few things but NOT for your criticism of the truth about my assertions. I DID say that-- "1) lamp cord beats any other speaker cable 2) your "little Bryston" beats almost any amp WC has had in his room 3) Rane equalizer is better than almost all preamps WC has had 4) dac-direct is almost always superior to any preamp" Can you guess WHY I say you are incorrect? Answer--you have never listened to lamp cord, my Bryston 2.5B SST2, Rane EQ. If you have listened to lamp cord, and you didn't like it, that's fine and fair. But an objective ear can judge that typical speaker cable fattens bass and rolls off HF by comparison. I simplified somewhat, as zip cord seems to be more open and less veiled. You are entitled to not like the sound of lamp cord, but Steve of GTA confirmed my findings. He heard it, and maybe you didn't. I am almost certain that you never heard my Bryston or Rane, so you have no basis for your criticism. Again, Steve heard both pieces, and confirmed my findings compared to his Pass amp and preamp. He still prefers his Pass, which is fine for him. Jay agrees with me that for detail and clarity, dac-direct is superior than adding a preamp, although he prefers a preamp for other reasons, which I also agree with and understand. On this interesting shootout, I had very similar objective observations as most of the listeners, even if more favor dac 2 and I favor dac 1. All of this shows that my listening skills are just fine. YOU NEED TO COME CLEAN AND RETRACT YOUR FALSE AND DEMEANING ACCUSATION THAT MY LISTENING SKILLS ARE POOR. If you have any decency, an optional apology is in order. For all the insights I contribute here founded on a lifetime of educated training and listening, I don't need your disrespect. Again, what are your musical qualifications to continue your criticism of me? You won't answer. I suspect you have limited musical training. But if I am wrong on that, you can correct me and I will retract that false statement. You can correct me if I am wrong, but nobody including you is entitled to REBUKE me, which is a moral offense. Lastly, I have an open mind to the fact that Jay may in the future or have already found speaker cables that I would prefer to lamp cord. The expensive Boulder, Pandora and Christine preamps may have greater clarity than my Rane used just as a line stage, but I suspect that many preamps in your budget would not be superior to the Rane. You can remain close minded and believe what you want to believe, but it is sad that you don't show signs of opening your mind and discovering something excellent and really cheap which would allow you to budget more money for top Wilson speakers or whatever. BTW, ron17 is mostly correct in what he says about me, but doesn't come on offensively the way you do. Learn from him. |
Blumartini was a good friend. Him and i met over 6 years ago and it was on craigslist believe it or not. I can't remember if i was selling some polk Audio speakers or if he was selling his b&w speakers that he owned at that point in time. He came to my home several times to listen to the different versions of my system. Great guy. My wife couldn't believe it when i told her he was gone. She said he always had a smile on his face at all times and that she just couldn't believe it. Sad indeed. |
Quick off topic post. Sunday I was surfing YouTube. One of my channels I follow posts movie soundtracks. It posted amongst others "Nobody does it better" By Carly Simon Wow! Immediate nostalgia. I love the Bond movies and no matter what Era you were born in you grew up with one of the Bonds. Carly’s voice sounded so pure I had to search for a great copy and after about 40 minutes found one on Qobuz. The best copy is actually from ’Bridget Jones edge of reason’ soundtrack. 🙌🙌🙌 Her live version is pretty good too. 👍 I listened to both versions at least 10-15 times over 2 days. Carly is such a natural talent. Her voice is so rich. That song is amazing. Memories... 🙂 That’s what this is all about. Tapping your foot. 🤙 Let’s cut the bickering. One member who contributed on this thread, @blumartini was lost to 2020. He’s gone forever. Life is too short. Let’s enjoy the music together while we can... 🤙 |
Finally, and I am putting my head on the chopping block here, I think in all three videos the same DAC was #1 and #2, respectively. It will be fun to find out tomorrow whether I was right because I still will retain a head on my shoulders even if I am wrong -- which is a really good deal, all considered! |
Dacs are no different from other components. You can build speakers (or have them built for you) for way less than $20K that sound better than 200K speakers......so spending more than $20K is stupid (someone else's word). Same with preamps, amps, cables, streamers, etc. It is stupid...he he....to spend more than $5-10K on any component and over $2K for any cable (and you can build your own cables). Diminishing return is what the high price stuff is about. Yes, you possibly get better performance.....but if you seriously tweaked with less expensive stuff you could get the same level of sound. You can use your intelligence and creativity or use your wallet and just buy expensive name brands. |
