WC,
I understand your methodology in comparing amps on different speakers, but speakers are the most variable factor in the chain, so it is difficult to do full assessments unless you do the A/B with the same speaker. I have the feeling that the Rowland 925 has a similar character to your Momentum, probably with subtle differences, so using the same speaker will be a must. Please realize that the Neo as an electrostatic will demolish any dynamic speaker for neutrality/clarity in the mids/HF at least. It is not really about loud power and big images. You can get a horn speaker system like the Avantgarde Trio with their humongous bass horns for that. I also believe that the relatively distorted sound of dynamic speakers leads many people to seek refuge in sweet, tubey (forgive the expression) electronics. I can understand that. But the electrostatic neutrality, naturalness and clarity may let you appreciate more neutral electronics. The Neo needs to be lived with for a long time, and then I think you will appreciate my points, and then you won't want to go back to dynamic speakers.
I am looking forward to seeing your video of their arrival. Include yourself standing tall next to them, and showing your muscles doing the heavy lifting!
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I suspect me taking on this journey with block audio will be a game changer. At 65k usd, this is the perfect amp to throw against the Rowland’s. |
techno_dude,
Eagerly awaiting your assessment of the Shunyata Alpha NR vs Delta NR. Too bad you exchanged the Delta, because the differences between cables are relatively subtle. Most importantly, it is not about how much money you spend. When I A/B'ed the Sigma HC with the Venom HC, I was TRYING to prefer the Sigma because it has more technology and was 10X the cost. Honestly, the differences were subtle, but in the end I preferred the characteristics of the Venom. My early comparisons yielded the same findings as later after 200 hours of break in.
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The Martin Logan Neoliths have arrived and are now under my roof :)
now it’s a matter of getting help to unpack them and bring them inside. We shall see when that will be done :) |
Looking forward to it WC!
By the way, I agree that the Audioquest Hurricane is a special power cord - I have one for my amp. I had the NRG1000 at one time and was not impressed. I'm about to get another Hurricane for my HT processor. I previously had WW Silver Electra's, including the upgraded ones with the all silver plugs. They seemed to be complimentary with the McIntosh amp I used to have, but now that I have moved on from the McIntosh, the Hurricane is the one I am keeping.
Dave
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WC, exciting times for sure. Enjoy ! MrD. |
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Viber,
I believe you prefered the non filtered Venom HC to the filtered Sigma because you are using a Denali wich already has heavy filtering. So that would make the system sound too laid back with double the noise filtration.
In my case there is no power conditioning, so the filtered Alpha NR does the job of cleaning that sin waves. Sound is cleaner, soundstage deaper, highs and bass more nuanced. Sure, it makes the amp a little more laid back sounding, I think the compromise is worth it...at least on my system it is.
Delta NR vs Alpha NR... here is what I ear ( hoping it is not placebo effect).
Delta NR is a slower pc, has fatter midrange.
Alpha NR has more speed, leaner lower midrange, but is more 3D....deeper sound stage is obvious.
Noise floor seems identical for both of the pcs.
Please note that the Alpha NR is still not fully burned in, only been plugged since yesterday. So maybe the lower midrange will get richer with use.
For now, I would recommend the Delta NR if someone has a leaner sounding system. And the Alpha NR for slower, richer midrange system. Synergy.
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Neoliths have been fired up with the momentum. Impressions:
1. Very warm sounding when compared to the magico.
2. No real fatigue regardless of volume level
3. All the bass you could ever wish for.
4. Something is missing at this time. Not sure what it can be.
5. More real horsepower needed?
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whitecamaross.. Obviously they need break-in if brand new. All my new Logans over the years needed break-in otherwise they sounded "shallow". Not "warm" to start. But my top end electronics were a few tiers below yours... lol........ I do not recall a long break-in period ,though. They started rounding to form fairly quickly. And the NEO is a whole different animal. But,like you said, explosive HP might be the ticket! |
The only variables you have now with the Momemtum Integrated is the speaker cables or placement or adjustment of the bass in the back. More power? Oh yeah, that could be, but that shouldn't show a problem with low/medium listening levels. My guess is that one of these things is needing adjustment.
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Right now the momentum did not really do anything for me. It loved regular tweeters though. I suspect the Neolith will need my ref10 paired with the block audios.
next up: gryphon Diablo 300. Will let it warm up before I judge it. |
WC, it could take many hours to dial in the Monoliths. I would not jump to conclusions yet on needing more power ( although I never doubt your passion or needing for higher power ). They also need time to break in, a topic that you and I seem to differ. Give it time, and play with positioning. I, myself, have other thoughts as to other things that might be missing, but will not discuss it at this time. Enjoy ! MrD. |
45k and the Dag is a meh...
Go little Gryphon go ! |
Just started to get them to sing better.
-8db in the bass jumpers and dialed in the second cross over for the right woofer distance.
Swapped out the silver power cords to the big power cords they come with and connected them to my p20. Great improvement. The gryphon is pushing them with ease.. Volume is at 25 out of 40. This is equivalent to about 95 db from my listening chair. Right now they are starting to hit a stride. The Momentum will enter the arena shortly and try again.
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That's good news.
Sometimes speaker cables and power cables can mess up a perfectly good system. |
I suspect the momentum doesn’t like my Wireworld platinum 7 cables and likes the transparent cables I was using when I heard it with the other speakers. I may need to try those again and report back |
If someone said these have a small sweet spot then they are probably listening to them in the bathroom of the room where they were being displayed. I have 3 chairs next to each other and I’m here sitting all the way to the right and I can hear the left speaker sparkle and sing to me. I don’t feel like I can only hear the speaker I’m sitting in front of. Again, I’m going to little by little kill any bs spoken before. In short, no the Neolith do not have a narrow sweet spot.
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techno_dude,
No, with or without the Denali, the Venom HC was brighter and more upfront and exciting than the Sigma HC. Still, not a big difference and much smaller than the effect of the Denali for focus and excitement. Eventually, the salesman at Music Direct admitted that these were also his observations about the Venom vs Sigma, when he stopped the usual disgusting sales talk that more expensive means better. There is also some inconsistency in your descriptions--when something like the alpha NR has more speed, leaner lower midrange, it is NOT more laid back. More speed implies more HF, the opposite of laid back. Too bad you can't go back and forth to verify this, and the alpha may be breaking in. Keep listening, and pick up a used Venom HC to compare. This is one area where used is better than new--what can go wrong with a used cable?
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whitecamaross
Yes, Transparent Cabling, is a sonic match for D' Agostino products.Wilson Audio loudspeaker systems as well.
Happy Listening!
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Viber,
I’ m no pro reviewer, but I can try to explain.
I meant more laid back than a non filtered powercord, like my older Zitron Cobra.
Surely, like the Venom HC, the Cobra is a more upfront pc. The noise filter Shunyata uses makes the sound a bit less in your face, I’ m sure this isnhe effect of the noise tech they use.
Delta more laid back. Alpha less laid back than Delta. Like you said, leaner and quicker than Delta = less laid back than Delta. But still more laidback than Zitron Cobra.
Everything with the Alpha is 3D, more air, sometimes instruments or voices jump at you. I know this can be interpreted as more upfront, mais my brain seems to find the whole presentation still a bit laidback or ´´ controlled’´. |
WC, don’t sweat the cables or amps at this time. Let the Neo break in, and try the different positions as I posted recently. Be sure to have 6 feet behind it to the front wall, which will increase the airiness and life. HF will be more extended and the midrange more crisp. The Magico S5 was a smaller presentation, so it could sound tighter and cooler just for that reason. I would definitely sit significantly further away from the Neo than you did for the Magico. Sitting higher is better so you will get more of the mids/HF from the high panel compared to the dominant bass on the floor. PATIENCE.
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Patience is what I will have. |
We are all behind you WC. Patience...Patience...Patience...Enjoy ! MrD. |
WC, congrats for the sota Martin Logan now in your living room. I admit I was a bit disappointed that it was not Wilson or Magico, so I forgot politness basics. My fault.
Question for electrostatics pros, how does the very light and tin moving film between stators gets break in ? The electronics caps, coils and the big lower woofers I know how. |
Thanks techno.
The manual says:
Break-In
When you first begin to play your Neolith speakers, they will sound a bit bass shy. This is due to the high quality, long-life components used in our woofer. Our custom made woofer requires approximately 72 hours of break-in at 90 dB (moder- ate listening levels) before any critical listening. The break-in requirements of the crossover components (and, to a lesser degree, the stator) are equivalent.
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techno_dude,
Interesting question about break-in of the panels. Although the low mass membrane has low excursion between the stators, the large surface area still produces high volume levels. High volumes are equivalent to moving lots of air, so perhaps the situation is still equivalent to break-in of dynamic drivers, although your point is valid. If so, then maybe the real break-in process for the panel involves the transformer, which is a piece of electronics. Let’s see what technically informed people like bill_k think.
WC,
So the manual indicates that initially the Neo is bass shy. Since you already have found generous bass, this might mean that after break-in, the bass might be excessive, relative to the stat mid/HF. Since the manual mentions less change in the sound of the stat panels (mid/HF), then the increase in bass after break-in might make the sound even warmer, which means less HF. The most likely reason for your findings is that the Neo is too close to the front wall, as I suspect. I found with my stats that inches matter, and the more space behind the stat, the more HF/life/airiness but somewhat less bass. You might need even more than 6 feet, since the Neo panel and the woofer section are large. Keep experimenting with placement. Amps and cables are less critical than stat panel placement. I did, and fortunately my speakers are very light.
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I can’t do 6 feet. Mine are 2 feet which is the minimum distance recommended. If I did 6 feet they would block the living room lol. I need to just play with their placement. I’m getting them to sound better little by little. |
WC did you do a You Tube video of setting up the new Neoliths? |
No because I’ve been very busy with so many things. My room is what it is for now until I can hopefully build a dedicated room next year Unless something else comes up.
For now, I’ll play with them and toe them in or out etc and possibly bring them out a few more inches. The bass is WOW WOW WOW. The best bass I’ve heard from any speaker in my room. My biggest disappointment is that I feel I’m lacking that 3D effect and what I was told is that the panels need far greater juice to do this on the Neolith. My integrateds are great with them but they are not going to show me what this speaker can do. I was hoping to consolidate to an integrated if I could convince myself it was good enough but I can’t lie to myself. The Neoliths are demanding a 10. Litter twin turbo viper engine or else I’ll still feel like I’m driving a naturally aspirated Dodge Charger.
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WC,
It's unfortunate that you can't do 6 feet, but do the most you can. 2 feet may be the minimum, but the Neo or any electrostatic will benefit hugely from much more distance in the back of them. Toe-in will increase the distance for some of the panel area. I found that the midrange of my stats was soggy/warmed over/congested with insufficient distance, so I feel that a big reason the Neo is warmer than the Magico is because of insufficient distance. I wish I could tell you to make a dedicated listening room to optimize performance, but you have your family to deal with.
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WC,
I just read your post. The 3D effect can be heard at low volume levels where your Momentum has plenty of power. 3D is about resolution, which the Momentum has plenty of, at low and high power. No, the real problem is speaker placement with insufficient distance. Don't listen to advisors with an agenda to sell you even more expensive and powerful amps. I want to save you the heartache of spending all that money on powerhouse amps, only to realize that no amp will really solve the dominant problem of speaker placement you are facing now. With your other speakers, you were extremely pleased with the Momentum's qualities, so there is no reason the Momentum wouldn't make the Neo happy, especially since it gives very high power into very low impedances, something few amps can do.
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New mono blocks are coming, so wc shall see. I think the room is too small to allow what the Neos are capable of. Might be improved by the greater power, but not enough to allow them to open up and breath. I wanted to say this before wc ordered them, but, he was on a mission. However, I always stated the room, the room, the room. Enjoy ! MrD. |
Viber has a very valid point about power. We really don’t need that much. Think about it, as you said your integrateds are making the best bass your ever eard...Then why would they have enough power to produce best bass ever on a huge Neolith pair ....but not enough power to make the sound 3D ?...
3D is more about room and placement. And like he said, resolution and I could add noise floor.
Take for example the new powercord on my amp, it’s a crazy thing it is making soundstage more 3D . Yes a darn powercord is doing that ! Years ago I would not have believe this at all, yet it is obviously doing it on my system right now as I am typing. So cables are important for 3D, along with the room. Power, not as much as we tend to believe.
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Cables can make a difference too for more 3D sound.
Some are better at it than others |
Here is something to try......
Your room is what it is, and I suggest you start with no toe-in at all. I found that more 3D space came to my setup with less toe-in than the flashlight test that Martin Logan recommended. And I noticed that most of the pictures that I have seen of the Neolith was without any toe-in or just a little. Listening at 8 to 9 feet should work, but every inch is going to count from the back wall. So if you can spare even just a few inches more, the situation will get better. And take a look at having the Neolith with no toe-in. It was a good move to go into the back of the speaker and go with -8db with that giant 15" driver so near the back wall.
You will need some serious power to realize the potential of this speaker. I not sure the Block Audio is even going to be enough. The ratings with that amp is 500w/ch at 4 ohms. The great thing about the Block Audio Monoblocks is the amount of build inside to throw some serious current to the speakers. Looking at the specs, it is very similar to my Krell KSA-200s in transformer size and capacitance. My Krell puts out 560w/ch at 1% distortion. The Block Audio may put out just a hair more than that.
The Neolith panels are so freakin' big, that it's possible that they could use an even bigger amplifier with a power rating of 800w/ch to 1000w/ch at 4 ohms and stable all the way down to 1 ohm. The Block Audio may be just right for the occasion and room size. Only testing will tell. Martin Logan rates the Neolith up to 1,300 watts can be put thru each speaker.
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Update:
the momentum has better bass than gryphon. No question about it.
Dan continues to school all manufacturers when it comes to oomph. |
WC,
Yes, the Momentum has better bass, and also better HF according to you and your wife. (By the way, women have better hearing than men according to biology, and also she has less noise-induced hearing loss than you because she probably doesn't listen loudly as much as you do. You are still young and probably still have excellent hearing, but the damage slowly accumulates.) So the Momentum has plenty of oomph in the entire musical frequency range. Both mrdecibel, techno_dude and bigddesign3 agree with me that room placement is the dominant problem, because there is nothing wrong with the Momentum. While bigddesign3 and others have noted that straight ahead or less toe-in may create more space, the problem in this case is the Neo is already warm in its tonal balance, and less toe-in will roll off the HF and create too much warmth and congestion. To answer the coming howls of grey9hound, I use the word, warmth to mean muddy and congested, rather than the desirable musical sweetness with detail. The optimum placement of the Neo is with the toe-in that I and Martin Logan recommend, plus plenty of distance behind them. Do your best. Maybe your wife will appreciate the sound enough so that you can use the largest room in the house to get the most out of the Neo. Won't cost a penny. You both will be happy about that.
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I don't believe there is a problem yet. Just let the Neolith's break in first before playing with placement. Those speakers weigh a ton, so playing with placement before break in is a waste of energy. My Monolith III speakers are 3 feet from the back wall in a 19 foot room and my chair is 9 feet from the speakers. after a long period of time playing with speaker placement and chair placement, this produced the best sound in my room. I did have to put bass traps in the corners behind the speakers to help tame the room a little. What is the power output of the Momentum integrated at 4 ohms? enjoy |
I have never used the crazy flashlight setup recommended by the manufacturer. I have had 6 different pairs of martin-logans and I always have them about 8ft apart and BARELY toed in===about an inch or two. The center-fill snaps into place and music spreads from side-wall to side-wall. Imaging is pinpoint ridiculous. There is NO,REPEAT ==NO==loss of high frequencies. Actually, if you toe these speakers in too much there is just too much information to process.
Start with speakers straight ahead,allow speakers to break-in,then toe-in slightly. The stat panel should be at least 3 to 4 ft from wall. The further the better but I understand the constraints.
Sip a nice beverage and enjoy! |
I agree with mikepaul. Also, as I mentioned, a really great resource to tap into is the Martin Logan Owner's club website. They know their stuff regarding set up and placement and even amp power recommendations. enjoy |
mikepaul,
With proper toe-in so that the midpoint of the panel is facing your head, there is the most information revealed--we agree on that. Compared to this, less toe-in results in loss of HF--this is the laws of physics. The reality is that there is never too much info to process. If you look at a musical score (the printed sheet music), there is so much going on that all listeners, me included, are missing many details even with a setup that attempts to reveal the most info. There is music in the grooves that no one has heard yet. If you go to the trouble of getting the most accurate stat speaker and electronics, then try to get the most info out of it all, so you can come as close to the music as possible. More generally, any speaker designer is hoping the listener can hear as much info from his speaker as possible. He wouldn't say to face the speaker into the corner firing away from the listener, obviously. I exaggerate to make this point clear.
WC, we all agree that 3 feet is the bare minimum distance. The more, the better. You will get better sound with a cheap amp and 3 feet distance, than with a million buck amp and 2 feet distance.
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Well guys the panels themselves are at least 4 feet away from the wall behind them. The side of the cabinet is around 1.5ft from the side walls and they are about 7 feet away from each other measuring from the center of each panel. I’m about 9 feet away from them. |
Uh,no viber6, we do NOT agree actually.
The midpoint of the panel is NOT the center of the panel,but the CENTER OF THE INNER THIRD of the panel.
from manual:
"Generally it is found that the ideal listening position is with the speakers slightly toed-in so that you are listening to the inner third of the curved transducer section."
Hence,with a SLIGHT toe-in the listener will receive the best musical presentation of THIS brand of ’stat.
Your mileage may vary with your particular brand of ’stat.
Respectfully,I do not worry about the laws of physics when I set up my audio equipment.
I let my ears do the talkin’.
Natch!
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WC, glad you were able to do the four foot distance. The two foot distance was not enough. Again, patience my young lad. Enjoy ! MrD. |
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There is a lot of discussion about toe in and the manufacturer's recommendations. The amount of toe in and the subjective review of the benefits are also dependent on the room acoustics, early reflections etc. Everyone has different room acoustics and reflections so there is really no set amount.
I visited a friend that had a ML system that he has tweaked for years and he has generous room treatments and diffusion. We dialed in more toe in and it improved all aspects at the listening position .
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"
Well guys the panels themselves are at least 4 feet away from the wall
behind them. The side of the cabinet is around 1.5ft from the side walls
and they are about 7 feet away from each other measuring from the
center of each panel. I’m about 9 feet away from them."
I'd say this is perfect placement for this room. And the distance away from these monsters is spot on. The point I'm trying to make is due to the massive size of electrostatic panel, too much toe-in could cause some mixed imaging results. By starting at placement with no toe-in, and taking a listen to a few songs. Then adjust toe-in very slowly, and I mean an inch at a time. From what WCSS was saying about the confusion of sound is more likely do to the back waves bouncing and the toe-in. Now that he has added more room on the back wall.... starting from scratch (no toe-in) to little changes will work way better than having the inner third method. I know that these can sound good in a smaller room, due to the fact that it was setup in a hotel with a tiny room size. And it still sounded glorious.
You are one lucky guy, and with time this is going to be some experience. Good luck!
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Brought the speakers out one more foot so they are about 5ft off the back wall. I hear an improvement FOR SURE. VERY DRASTIC ACTUALLY. Now I’m trying to see how much toe in it will need or if the flashlight should be good but it’s not clear to me where to shine it.
FYI: this speaker is CRAZY transparent. I was playing an old cd from lynyrd skynard and I felt that it sounded a little dull. Then I went to the master mqa version and it was like whoa. A whole different amount of sound. I’ve never heard such a drastic change. The presentation is dead center and it almost sounds as if the artist is standing between both speakers. The mids are just immense. |
Are you using the D'ag now?
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