My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

To be more precise:

The more classical and "romantic" and shubertian one is the 3-4 for me...

He never corrected the 6 which is the more romantic piece about nature...

The 5 is the deepest for his mastering of the parts uniting in a complete final culmination in one ultimate chord...It is for me the best representation of the parts and events in one human life integrated in a karmic thema revealed by the integrating finale, the best i ever listen to, a fugue which would have impressed Bach...This work for me describe a human life on a spiritual pespective...

The 7 are the more beautiful for me...So seductive in his spell that anyone must love it for sure...

The 8 come after the 5 for the perfection of the parts interaction and so harmonious that it rival the 5...But its finale is less impressive than the 5...

The nine is the deepest moving one and the more spectacular, convey emotion to a deeper level than the others if possible .....

It is only my impressions....

My last surprize is the influence of Liszt Christus on the young Bruckner because the Liszt work is so perfect that only Bach even managed an oratio on this scale of perfection, and at the risk to be blasphemous for my idol, Liszt even reach the Bach mastery not by changing the syntax language but by uniting the meaning of the orchestral part with the voices in a work of three hours so perfect and economical , even the Bruckner third mass, by itself a master summum, dont exceed it...

LIszt being a pianist is a composer underestimated... the Christus is the proof....It is easily for me the greatest oratorio ever written....The last himalayan peak of the Romantic movement with Bruckner for me...

For sure these impressions comes to me and i am not a musician... Feel free to disagree or correct me...

mahgister,

Thanks for your recommendation of Bruckner’s Fifth Symphony. The most popular are 7, 8, 9. I don’t know the 5th. I’ll message you this weekend. You have eclectic musical knowledge, much to learn from you. THANKS

I have nothing against your preferences. But you incessantly tell WC to try dac- direct and he tells you it is awful for his preferences. You do not respect his conclusions (he has tried it dozens of times and thinks it sucks in comparison) .

And it gets old reading the same old blather on dac direct from you. I bet WC has told you 20 times at a minimum that a good preamp is better, so stop beating a dead horse. WC strongly prefers a preamp and nobody cares that you do not (except that it likely further validates WC’s conclusions based on your fringe preferences)

@viber6 which version of Scheherazade do you prefer.?

my favorite so far is the 1959 Fritz Reiner & the Chicago symphony orchestra. Although the stage in Chicago they used was shallow and wide for that presentation , the recording is not the best, but the performance is impeccable.

@viber6 

i had my DAC directly connected to my amp, using jRivers 64bit volume control. Was ultra transparent and revealing! It would still be that way if I didn’t start streaming music, the app passes thru the systems DAC chip first, unfortunately, unlike JRiver. 
So I went to Music First Audio, Jonathan Billington for a passive that wouldn’t add or subtract from the signal. I had him build me a custom unit with no selector switch and using the 31 position larger tapped transformers. This proved to be ultra transparent, yet still with body when present on the recording. My last 3 preamps , Freya+ , Pass XP12 then XP22 we’re all very good and I still have two of them, but this passive simply gets out of the way and let’s the music flow. I enjoyed the other preamps , but over time, I found them to be too “ euphoric“ for my tastes.. Live music isn’t smoothed over, I’m not bored anymore.  Less is more in audio.. keep everything as simple as possible, but not simpler.. 

Good day all…

mahgister,

Thanks for your recommendation of Bruckner's Fifth Symphony.  The most popular are 7, 8, 9.  I don't know the 5th.  I'll message you this weekend.  You have eclectic musical knowledge, much to learn from you.  THANKS.

kren0006,

Jay didn't say that MSB into M monos sounds like crap.  He said it sounds bright and produces ear fatigue.  If I listened in his room and with loud SPL's I would agree with his observations.  No, dac-direct isn't distorted--it is the way to reveal more detail and musical content.  This is true of both megabuck and cheap systems. This is not YOUR taste, but it is mine.  STOP YOUR INCESSANT DEPRECATION OF MY PREFERENCES.  You continually assert that I have no respect for others' preferences, but you are guilty of that sin against me.  Jay and you are entitled to your preferences, but Jay's observations are consistent with mine.  That makes his findings useful to me, so I learn much from him.  Whatever I might learn from you is tainted with your negativity.

What I do is to state objectively that dac-amp produces more detail/clarity, and dac-preamp-amp produces more warmth and dynamics.  You cannot handle facts, but go on the emotional warpath because you thrive on antagonism toward people with different preferences.

Furthermore, Jay's top lessons are his own personal opinion, and he states continually that they are "one man's opinion."  That makes him respected, unlike you with an undertone of vicious attacks.  You will continue to deny this, and just state that I should deal with your "facts."  THAT makes you a slow learner, to put it politely.  

Knowledgeable listeners like mikem and mahgister value my opinions, so I will continue to state what I hear from my extensive experience.  If you think I am wasting your time, just ignore me and don't respond to me.  There is no place for your incessant negativity towards me.

Viber, for the millionth time WC has told you that a good preamp is better than without it. He just told you that dac direct into Mephisto sounds like crap. You are a slow learner on this point. Stop wasting the thread’s time with your never-ending insistence to the contrary about systems you’ve never heard.

indeed, if this entire thread were boiled down to WC’s top 5 lessons, that would be one of them. That a good preamp is better than no preamp with the level of gear to which this thread pertains. Why?  Because dac-direct sounds unnatural and distorted. I realize that is the type of sound you prefer but your sonic preferences are fringe and minority 

Boulder is silent...

Well, it's 1155PM and I'm listening. Synergy is far greater with thrse Mephisto monos and these new speakers than I remember it being with the XLF. It's going to be a long night!

I’m running a YouTube channel so the day I arrive at not moving to the next component then that is the day I can close my channel. As long as more product keeps coming out, I will keep going.

You are absolutely correct, but hopefully you will come to a place that you are happy with…which seems like an elusive goal for you. This hobby has a fundamental problem…and that is we are all listening for something different!
The other issue, is also not well disclosed…and it is this…the difference between the sound of a ‘live’ unamplified instrument and the absolute portrayal of a ‘live’ event can never truly be attained. Therefore, the best we can hope for is an approximation of what we ‘hope’ the real event sounded like. In almost all instances, that is nothing more than a guess on our part.

I recently had an interesting couple of conversations with two very well known high end designers. I asked them both these questions…A) how did you come to design your gear in reference to what live musical event…and B) how often do you listen to live music…or the re-creation in the studio of music.

The answer from both of these folks was very very enlightening.

@viber6 

Msb sounds bright into Mephisto. You will get ear fatigue faster than if you stood in front of the speakers at a club. 

You don't need to live with any component for a year in order to know if it moves you or not. 

@ron17 please do enlighten me.

@jays_audio_lab I think there are reviewers who do live with gear for years before putting pen to paper. Not that this necessarily imbues them with more knowledge and experience about the product, but it probably cannot hurt. HP was in fact notorious for keeping gear for years after it arrived at his abode…most times to the detriment of the manufacturer. Not saying this is a correct behavior pattern, but it does show that there are reviewers who have different protocols.
Living with components for just a few months and then moving on…seems to me to be a little self-defeating as a goal in this hobby, even if you are trying to gauge the worth of every product on the audio market, but that’s just IMHO.

Jay, 

You said, "MSB into Mephisto monos is a step backwards.. I have been very clear on the fact that the mephisto needs a "race car" driver. You can't make a dac do a real preamp's job."

This implies that you do not really value neutrality/clarity, but prefer big scale dynamics which an added preamp does provide.  Any preamp ALWAYS adds its own flavor to the total sound.  That is a move away from neutrality and clarity.  I wonder why you proclaimed the Mephisto monos the best amp ever.  It seemed that it provided neutrality/clarity AND power/control.  Did you do extensive listening to MSB direct into Mepisto monos?  That doesn't provide enough dynamics for you?

@daveyf

I believe you have missed the point of this thread.  

My goal is to live with my components for a few months then move on. Do you think magazine reviewers live with gear for a year or two before they write about it?.

People criticize without knowing and confusing TWO DIFFERENT GOALS...

Audiophile experience with the greatest possible pieces of gear ask for completely different attitude and work than audiophile experience with one chosen system...

It takes me few years to figure out HOW to embed my system mechanically, electrically annd acoustically...

I know by experience and experiment that most people dont know how, save giving their money for ready made  products and solution that are ALWAYS partial solution ...

Then criticizing someone who have a complete different goal than living with a system ONCE AND FOR ALL is meaningless...

Just the acoustical treatment and acoustical controls takes months of work every day to figure out...

Or you must  throw 100,000 bucks to a competent acoustician...

Then Jay is Jay, you cannot ask the same thing from him than the things you must ask for yourself to do and figure out  with a CHOSEN SYSTEM.... He compare and analyse with his own history and limitations... it is IMPOSSIBLE to review all pieces of gear and creating a chosen system at the same time...

Holding gear for months?? That is no time at all. Some of the most experienced folk I know in this hobby have had their same gear for decades! They love the music, not the gear. I’m not saying that trying to go for the SOTA is requiring one to stick with gear for ages, BUT it sure helps to know when to get off the train, so to speak. That is unless you are never content/experienced enough to know when you have reached a plateau and that the next step up is unlikely in the near future. Contrary to what a lot of guys believe, I am not one that thinks that epiphany’s are likely every few weeks...or even months, in this hobby. It’s all small degrees with typically more steps backwards than forwards. This is NOT a popular opinion with most high end manufacturer’s, or reviewers ( for obvious reasons), but I discovered many years ago that the latest is not always the greatest in this hobby...and sometimes far from it. The mistakes can be costly to you, but not typically for the dealer..or the manufacturer. Churning through gear tells me that a clear and defined ( and reasonable) goal is not well defined in the hobbyist...leading to my prior post.

@jays_audio_lab I actually watched your video from start to finish! Did you not say " I never fall in love with any gear"? That’s fine, but it should be a goal of most hobbyists, at least IMHO, to actually know what they are trying to achieve in this hobby, and more importantly what is possible for their budget. I may have missed this part, but what is your goal from the hobby?

BTW, I think we would agree on most things with regards to audio reproduction...and I do agree with most of what you have pointed out in your videos. ( well at least the one’s that I have viewed...there seem to be so many, LOL).

@daveyf

you clearly did not watch the entire video from today...you didn’t care to watch what I said about me selling gear quick.

Who in here can look at all the components I’ve had in 2021 and calculate how long each component stayed in the room?

If someone did, it would dismantle this narrative created by you above. I hang on to stuff for months now but of course the narrative seems to be the same because nobody bothers to do a little research. If someone has the time to do so, please go on and post here. 

Churning/Burning through gear like a friend of mine…who is constantly unhappy with his stuff..and changes it every few weeks..a recipe for long term discontent. I feel sorry for anyone who does this in our hobby.

Ha, I didn’t even look to see if Gryphon has a speaker under $100k or in the weight class WC mention. Maybe they don’t. Just thought about it for 10 seconds and posted my guess.

Plus I think the only reason he’d get rid of what has obviously been his favorite speaker per his listening comments (despite his hedging now) would be to evaluate more Gryphon for purpose mentioned

I was right about Mephisto Solo when so many were guessing Block Audio. But I’ve been wrong before - wouldn’t be first time.

i’ll say if it isn’t Gryphon then I think it is a brand he’s had before because were it not I think he’d have said that

That's too easy, if that's the case kren0006.  You do have a great track record with predicting, so you might be absolutely right.   However, I think the Pantheon would be the top of the line under $100K MSRP, because the Trident MKII and others are over $100K.

Dave

It’s a Gryphon speaker guys, c’mon follow along. He said he might become a dealer. Just look how much Gryphon news he’s been posting lately. Not a coincidence 

Estelon X Diamond MK II.

3 way

$78K

Made in Estonia.

All I will say for now about the new speaker is this:

1. Less than 100k MSRP
2. Not made in the U.S.
3. 3-way speaker

It's not that I want JA to be there - just a prediction.  OK, now you have me thinking.  Perhaps an Estelon or a Rockport?

Dave

Interesting 🤔. Many want Joseph audio to be in here. 

Don't dismiss any brand and remember they are under $100k MSRP. Incredible bass in my room is an understatement!

GT Audioworks?

On the truck now.

https://www.josephaudio.net/pearl3

I predict JA as the new speakers.

Dave

Moving away from the XLFs is a complete surprise! Your own words explain it, "I don't fall in love with anything", it's still unexpected. Packing up the XLFs would seem to be a 2 or 3 person job? I'm excited to see what is replacing the Wilsons, Rockport, Vivid, Vandy, Joseph, Kharma, too many to guess.

Not surprised. You never keep any speakers more than 6 months or so. 6 months is really an eternity for you for speakers.

Hey, don't look now but the PrimaLuna/Raven thread has nearly hit 1,000 posts in a week.  That is a torrid pace.  At that rate it'll pass this thread by June ; )

Thanks for your kind word...

We are on the same page about music meaning, save i take like a personal challenge project to understand and take control by my own of my small room acoustic...It is finished now...Zero cost... 😁😊

I dont read "score" sheet, but i can explain in details with a metaphorical " novel" all details of the fifth symphony of Bruckner for example and what is the meaning for me and why...It is enough for me...All music are like a film for me... Reading the scores will be boring at the highest degree, mathematician dont use abacus they use concepts, abstract operations and numbers lanscapes... The score is there for the musician to play his tune....The resulting music body is not in the score at all, the skeleton is...

I consider the Bruckner 5th for some reeasons one of the deepest work ever written...With the art of the fugue, the well tempered Klavier, and the stupendous underestimated Liszt Christus and the last Scriabin which is near the border between atonal and tonal , which i collected ALL versions if possible...I listen Persian and sufi music, Indian classical and some jazz...

My system cost is 500 bucks but very well embedded mechanically, electrically and acoustically at no cost with my own homemade devices...Then i listen music and bother no more with gear... I am interested by Jay thread and video because of his honesty and passion more than with the gear he tested .... 😁😊

Speaking about the Music/sound  experience the ratio between S.Q./price ratio is not where people think it is...Because they dont know how to embed their gear mechanically, electrically and especially acoustically... The greatest luxury in audio is not a costly amplifier it is a dedicated acoustically controlled room...Then the point of diminishing return is not so dar away... When i listen Vladimir Feltsman piano filling my room with Bach i dont listen the sound anymore.... 

Now  because my audio system is   relatively optimally implemented i only listen music without bothering more about anything else...

My best wishes to you....

I am not in this audio hobby as a scientific project, but rather as a means of getting the maximum information and understanding of the music I love.

anyone surprised at the move?

@jays_audio_lab 

i applaud Gryphon for doing what’s best for the music and not the environmentalists. “If you want to play, you gotta pay”

My class A amp dissipates 81% of its power in heat. Well worth the trade off IMO. 

MSB into Mephisto monos is a step backwards.. I have been very clear on the fact that the mephisto needs a "race car" driver. You can't make a dac do a real preamp's job. 

Jay,

Now that you seek neutrality and clarity with the Mephisto monos, understand that no preamp will give you these qualities better than source direct into the power amp.  Even if the Gryphon Commander is THE best preamp for these qualities, it still won't be as good as no preamp at all.  You will come to recognize that it will still give greater dynamics and bloom but with sacrifice of neutrality, clarity, transparency.  Save your money--source direct into the Apex amps will more likely achieve the heights of neutrality and the like.  Right now, without spending any money, try source direct into your M monos.  You might be entranced with the greater neutrality/clarity and be willing to give up some of the dynamics and bloom.  Your XLF speakers are very efficient, and the powerful M monos by themselves might satisfy you totally, without the impurity from any preamp.  Even then, if your power quality is terrible at times, you will pull your remaining hair out, even with the Apex amps.  When I have those bad power days, my best power amp sounds worse than my oldest worst amp on a good power day.

"Put bluntly, you can’t cheat physics. There are no engineering shortcuts when it comes to pure Class A, so we repeat with no apologies: TRUE, PURE CLASS A means heavy transformers, very large heatsinks, large quantities of expensive parts and costly assembly. While we appreciate and endorse every effort to conserve energy and preserve our global resources, our research into efforts to obtain Class A performance from class A/B topologies makes it clear that there simply is no substitute for the sheer magic of pure Class A."

I completely agree with this comment from Gryphon above .

"The Gryphon Apex is by nature a product for the fortunate few who can afford such a statement: a product for the connoisseurs who seek absolute purity in the reproduction of music. In short, Apex has been created for music lovers whose respect for the musicians, producers and mastering engineers inspires them to seek the truth lurking in the original recording".

Oh wow this stuff is too much money...

The Apex stereo amp is $120k...$240k for monos..

Wow. That’s nuts. The stereo amp costs the same as Mephisto monos!!!

The new gryphon Apex amp can't detect a speaker load which oretty much means it completely assaults all speakers connected to it. Weight of the stereo amp is...440 lbs 

Well, gryphon has done it again... Finally a serious linestage. It’s time for me to save my money...just when I thought I was done with Gryphon.

I think this new amp is the bigger essence amp I've been talking about and if it is, oh boy...that is going to serious...

I’m sure the new ML 50,s will sound nice but I’d take the new Gryphon Commander pre and Apex amps thank you very much.

check them out they look great at stereonet

I’m going to guess the MSB.