So basically what you are saying is the 700cx is as good as Pass 350.8 and Simaudio 860A... So we can all save 15k by getting the former instead of the latter s...
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
audiolabyrinth - Many members have pointed out to the OP the importance/requirement for him to update his electrical service during his journey to review amplifiers here. And he has already stated that he is looking to get this addressed. So you don't need to assume that point was never made.....it's now universally understood/agreed upon here. |
Conflating cables and power cords with providing the required amperage to an ultra-high current amp like the Krell is a mistake. Putting that amp on a 15 amp AC line is like putting 89 octane gas in a 11:1 CR motor; it’ll run, but will be way down on power at the top and lack throttle response. Simple as that. Dave |
Thank you rs507. @ rsf507, your statement is extremely inadequate!, the muse cable system is new technology, the cable's was just introduced this year!Hmmmm, every time I see an "as seen on tv" gadget, it's "new technology". they kill the shunata z-tron anaconda speaker cable's and interconnect's that they replaced!Now there's a surprise....a Tara Labs "killed" a competitor's cable in audiolabyrinth's system. Really? I am saying what I hear, I am very impressed, believe me, that is hard to do.It is hard for you to say that you're impressed with a Tara Labs product? I agree with techno_dude here. The OP has clearly stated that he will look into adding/updating a circuit to 20A when his electrician is available and to also put in an audio-grade outlet. He is not interested in $46k or $23k or even $10k in ICs, speaker cables and a power cord. And if an amplifier does not mate well with his existing electrical service, then he stated he will find one that does. For me, when I learned what a great match the CAT amps were with the Sound Lab speakers, I knew I would go with these amps but that dedicated circuits for these would be required. And this was simple as the breaker box was conveniently located in the basement room where I had setup the audio system. It took a couple hours for a friend to put in two more 20A breakers, 8' 10ga lines down to a new outlet installed into the wall on each side of the breaker box. But this is an atypical situation for most people as they do not have the option to update their electrical service, and if they do, not so easily For such people, they must design an audio system that their electrical service can support rather than to redesign their electrical service around their ideal audio system. And I must disagree with a post here that was made some days ago that the OP should ignore the purists here. One of the greatest strengths of these forums is to have people with many different experiences share what worked or did not, products to consider, etc. |
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@ rsf507, your statement is extremely inadequate!, the muse cable system is new technology, the cable's was just introduced this year! Have you listened to these cable's?, they kill the shunata z-tron anaconda speaker cable's and interconnect's that they replaced! Nobody is shilling anything here, I am saying what I hear, I am very impressed, believe me, that is hard to do. |
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@ whitecamaross, not bad for a legacy amplifier, I wanted to ask you, have you ever heard the ole adage that your system is as good as your weakest point? That said, the power cord on that amplifier is it!, however, the good thing here is it is directly connected to the power supply with no buss bar unlike. Most amplifier’s , to help you get the high grain free exteneded treble you desire is relatively cheap! First off, you are starving this amplifier of current!, we can get there with no modifications to your amplifier, you have to fully break in a furutech NCF rhodium duplex receptacle and use this, do not plug nothing else to that receptacle, with a dedicated line with a single pole 30 amp breaker to free up the current, like I specified, you have to have a 3 conductor 10awg electrical cable, this is really cheap!, and to even further the grain free extended highs, based on what I’m hearing on the Luxman L-509X, as it turns out, you can get great cable’s without breaking the bank!, I’m telling you now, the Tara Lab’s muse speaker cable’s and interconnect’s mated to the Tara Lab’s cobalt power cord , in this case, to your preamp or source is spectacular, because you cannot use it on the amplifier, but that’s where the receptacle comes in!, hope this helps, cheers whitecamaross. |
So i have been playing the krell 700cx for the last hour and at first i was getting more mids on my left speaker. i tried 2 preamps with it, i tried the luxman as well and no it is not the speakers. i then went to run an errand and left it playing and now the sound has fixed itself. i suspect it is due to the capacitors needing to charge, etc the reason why i was getting imbalanced sound. My initial impressions using the 900u preamp are that this amp has amazing mids. Very clear, clean and articulate mids. I can understand every single word being sung by the artist. Bass control is world class for sure. The highs are not close to the luxman 900u highs. That said, i need to let it run longer and then insert the ref10 in the mix and see what happens. So far, i gotta be honest that this beast is no slouch. Not at all. |
There are no absolutes but always prefer modern/newer to older
components
SQ especially SS excluding NOS small signal tubes. I'm very familiar with older Krells FPB600, FPB700 ...and would NEVER consider them in 2018. @minorl just curious, what old stuff do you prefer over newer? Happy Listening and Keep Me Posted!!! |
Well tomorrow night i hope to begin to make sure it is working perfectly before I begin to listen to it. The caps were replaced by krell in 2015 so not very long ago. I will begin to listen with a standard 15a outlet until my electrician decides that he needs the money and then he will come out. Anyhow, I am 60% leaning on the full luxman set winning it all but I also won’t lie that the massive juice of the krell which is pure class a along with the incredible ref10 will have something to say about it. my source is the esoteric k1 and I will try 3 different types of speaker cables to see what happens. Stay tuned... oh and if I find a deal on the krell MRA Monos then they will be next ! Lastly, I am about to pay for the next pair of speakers that will replace my beloved Sasha’s. No they are not the neoliths but they do retail for $60k+ and I can’t say anything else until they are here.... it is the one brand that I’ve wanted to try for a long time... I expect these speakers to demolish my Sasha’s and the alexias. |
Can’t wait for your report ! No way this thing will beat the Lux, or even less detrone the Rowland 925s. If it is neutral, you will ear your preamp through it , but will not add magic like the big guns. Just to be clear when the report will be given, I pray to God that our little tweak friends will not go full excuses... ...hum you have to let it heat up for 36 hrs you need a better power cable or circuit you need to have the caps replaced you need to have it stand on a 20 kg beryllium shelve |
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OK gents, I realize that the current heat wave cross the nation may be cause of some discomfort.... But.... May I suggest that until outside temps return to normalcy, an extra effort be applied to keep things, ahem.... Friendly like, in keeping with the fine tradition of this delightfully audiophrenic watering hole?! Saluti, G. |
Techno_dude. I apologize if my post may have offended you. I in no way intended to do that. I was just commenting on my experience and knowledge about newer vs older equipment. Which, in my experience, newer is not always better than older. That is all. no disrespect intended. The thread is about WC's journey reviewing equipment that he wants to review. I for one, have no problem what-so-every with WC grabbing some older equipment and throwing them into the mix as well. It adds to the fun. so to speak. He's the one that has to do the heavy lifting. Also, maybe I missed something. Why is the Krell 700cx an audiophile abomination? what did I miss? enjoy |
Your modified Krell 700cx is what I would can an audiophile abomination. As good as it will ever be, it will never be pure and will have lost resale value due to modifying... this is always a fact you can t deny. This thread was always about modern solid state amplifiers. If you guys cannot live with the fact we are testing and discussing the latest and the best here, you can go discuss and compare your older gear ( sooner than later they will need replacement parts) all you want in the vintage section. |
+ 1 minorl!😎😎, that's close to what I'm saying, I have the equipment, and I'm testing exactly like you posted, that's another reason techno_dude doesn't know what he is talking about! What is he testing? Does he have the Kenwood kr-9600 and Luxman L-509X there to even have any weight to his statemnt? LOL! |
With all due respect, it is not absolutely true that newer is "better" than older. Sometimes the construction standards in the past was a "lost art" and was more detailed and better than today's standards. For audio equipment, especially solid state, it is true that the newer devices are more linear and have better power bandwidth than older devices. This is why I upgrade older transistors to newer/modern transistors when I either repair or upgrade units. They has the same basic specs, (hfe, power, voltage, etc.) but they are more linear and better devices. However, in audio, the only real way you can tell if a newer piece is "better" than the older stuff is to do a direct A/B comparison in the same system at the same time. Changing absolutely nothing but the device. Some older equipment is not equipped with balanced connections and therefore, you may have to add some special cabling or transformers to compensate for this test. But, that should be the only things changed. Then, as I tell others when comparing equipment in your home. play a favorite song first. use a DB gauge and find out the listening level from the gauge. Then put a white noise test cd or album on and use the DB gauge to see what that listening level was. Then switch out the one device for the other, put the white noise cd/album back on and adjust the volume to match what you were hearing with the other device. Then, listen critically. Many times, people perceive "better" when it is really just a volume/gain difference that emphasizes treble or base, etc. But when you match gains/volume, that artificial perceived difference goes away and you get to really hear the two devices fairly. anyway, just my take. Also, another issue I have seen is people discuss fuses, cables, power cords, and other side equipment. while I have no problem with this discussion, Let me just say that anything that the electrical signal has to go through will definitely impact that signal. However, if the designer did their job correctly, then they are basing their design on the design of their electronics and the sound of their device, using the electronics that they installed and tested when voicing their device. That includes, power cords, fuses, etc. If, when you demo'd the equipment in the store, a friends home or your home and you were happy with that sound, then that is what the designer intended. That is the sound they designed for. Yes, you can make things "better" by way of better internal cabling, better power cords, better fuses, etc. But, it sounded wonderful when you bought it. this is why I don't play much with fuses, power cords, etc. interconnect cables and speaker cables can make a dramatic difference. but, you can get seriously carried away with that also. I agree with WC. I am absolutely not going to spend a ridiculous amount on cables. but, my definition of "ridiculous" isn't the same as some others. Can I get it better? absolutely. But, at what point does one sit back, with a good glass of wine and just enjoy the music? Don't get me wrong. If their is something missing or a situation that drives me out of the room after awhile, then I need to address that. I will say that my room has had more impact than I previously thought. But, that is another discussion. I'm enjoying this post and the intelligent discussions. Keep it up. enjoy |
That would take too much effort here which I don’t want to put in... there’s always people who can benefit from what I write and those that don’t. I can’t please everyone and i don’t intend to. That said, make it about your own track, your own support crew and if you decide then you can bring one of the vehicles I’ve recommended to see how it performs. The truth here guys is that if I were to bring some crazy cabling, ultra expensive amps and preamps etc then MOST OF YOU would lose interest. Trust me, I received a few messages when I owned the rowlands from people that said they loved my journey but that I was starting to lose them with gear that they could not afford. I’ll try to keep “affordable” gear in this thread. |
I’ve been trying for ears to find an older car that’s better than a new one. Although I love the look of a -1969 camaro, i can’t say I love the engine or transmission. My perfect dream car has always been an old school muscle car with today’s engine and Transmission. Part of the reason why I love to go back in time with amplifiers is to see how good Good they are versus today’s offerings. I’ve still yet to find an old amp that rivals today’s best offerings. I remember hearing the pass labs 350.5 and when I compared it to the simaudio 860a, it sounded muffled, loose on the bass and with no finesse. That said, someone who doesn’t have anything to compare it to wouldn’t know any better. |
Please give us, or this thread a break... You are like someone from a car forum that keeps saying his 3 th gen is better than the 9 th gen. Nobody in the 9 th gen. section takes you seriously. But sometimes, only sometimes, someone like WC wants to know and ear what the fuzz was all about the 3 th gen. then. But deepdown he already knows the results in advance, he just needs to experience it...to demystify the myth. To confirm his assumption. |
Obviously you didn't listen to the video! techno_dude, you remind me of those who do not believe cable's make a difference with an audio system, I'm listening to the Luxman L-509X right now, sounds good, but like I said, it does not sound as good as the above video of the Kenwood kr-9600, or when I listen to my Kenwood kr-9600, I bought the Luxman L-509X because I'm a huge fan of Darlington power supply, they do sound similar. |
audiolabyrinth, liking vintage gear and believing it is on par with todays sota is an illusion most readers of this thread have already acknowledged... may it be digital or amplification or pre amplification.This is the reason they come here and read WC to get to know what has come to be the best by todays modern standards. You are free to start your own in the vintage section. |
Gentleman, it's not amplification has done leaps and bounds with technology, now digital has, vintage digital is crap, as you can see, they can say and do so called improvement's in amplifier's, but to my ears, don't hear leaps and bounds with sound improvement, the video above is some evidence with what I'm saying, happy 4th of July, cheers. |
@ techno_dude, Any real audiophile knows better to make that statement you said about newer is better when it comes to audio, I have this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gf5hU_FQz4k Sound familiar?, this is the Kenwood kr-9600 with Darlington power supply, same as the Luxman L-509X, however, the Kenwood kr-9600 sounds better period than the Luxman L-509X integrated amplifier, as a matter of fact, the Kenwood kr-9600 has better refined ,deeper bass than my krell 700cx!, this will kick the crap out of most equipment out there, this Kenwood kr-9600 is circa 1976, so I really don't want to hear noise in my ear about newer is better, my Kenwood kr-9600 is in mint condition like the one in the video, I am a vintage audio equipment collector and high end audio equipment builder , installer, I even build interior fencing around audio system's to keep pets out and away from the system's, lol!, my Kenwood kr-9600 is named dino, short for dinosaur, big, old, heavy, powerful like a dinosaur, as a matter of fact it's only a couple pounds lighter than the Luxman L-509X. |
A dedicated circuit with nice 14 ga is more than enough for me. Would 12 ga change the sound for the better, absolutely not in my case...I don’t care for a little bit more bass...I already got more than I need with the 14 ga wired on a second distribution panel. Using Oyaide R1 outlet and loving it also. |
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WC, I’m with you on uber priced cables, IMHO, they are not worth the money they are asking for. I would strongly recommend that while doing the breaker/outlet job, you also should consider replacing your electrical wiring feeding the power amps. My Shunyata PCs (used Anaconda CX) are built using 10 GA. A typical NA house would be wired with 12 or even 14 GA wiring. Maximum current rating for a 12 GA wire is 20 A, while 10 GA is 30 A. Redoing the wiring would be beneficial to any power amps you would be trying. This would only add a low incremental cost if you have an electrician already coming in for the breaker/outlet job. I was astonished by lower noise floor and improved bass on my monoblocks, when my 12 GA wiring was replaced by 10 GA. It is the best bang for the buck improvement I did on my audio system. Here is a very interesting article written by MSB Technology on the subject: http://www.msbtechnology.com/faq/how-to-wire-your-house-for-good-power/ |
We shall see this weekend Guys...that said, I’m not about to embark on buying crazy cabling for the krell. I’ll do the 20a upgrade and a nice outlet. That’s it. It’s either going to beat the Luxman or it’s not. Not about to go buy turbos, superchargers, nitrous, cams, ported heads etc so I can beat the other car. If I have to go through that much work then I’ll just buy the other car, pump gas and haul a$$. Why do you think I fell in love with the Camaro back in the 90s after owning a mustang ? Because the camaro was just faster and better. I had to do cams, heads, exhaust etc to be able to beat on the ls1 engine that only had an air intake and a shifter. To me, that’s the beautiful thing about having so many options. Why go through so much pain unless you are doing it because you want to see what changed in your set up after adding a new tweak. that said, maybe the krell does surprise me and puts on a show. I’m not totally counting it out. Lastly, the Luxman 900u also made me realize how mid fi the pass labs 350.8 truly is... I’d own a Luxman 900u over just about any pass labs amp with the exception of the xs series. Audiolabyrinth: I know your krell is not the same as mine. Yours has a boat load of money invested in it and internal work. Mine is the pure work that came out of krell. If mine loses, this doesn’t mean yours would. |
I’ m with WC on this. Audiophiles with experience know this, power is not refinement. As good as the 700cx will ever be, it is a 1988 Ferrari Countach. Luxman 900u is a 2018 Ferrari Portofino. Technology evolution is the key word here. audiolabirinth is suggesting change the pistons and retrofit a NOS kit on the car. Won’t transform it into the Portofino 2018. As for the 509x, as good as this integrated is it was build to a price point ( amp section like the M700u ) M900u and its preamp brother were build with Luxman best parts and technology... not the same at all. Like a women wich you fall in love with her body...509x. The other women you fall in love with her body, and her soul too...M900u...you get the whole complete package that transcends the experience. |