So how many different components are in the room that you haven’t revealed yet?
when are you planning to?
when are you planning to?
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
2 sets of monos, 1 preamp, one other preamp being built, and by Thanksgiving I’ll have the music server since this one got damaged. No plans of getting other speakers unless i magically run into one pair of speakers that are on my wish list. Plans to own Soulution 7 series has been abandoned (long story) so i sacrificed my 725 to get the next linestage which I’ve wanted to try. No idea when I'll release any of it. I want to focus on a few other things. The mystery amps/preamp will be used on future shootouts. I thought you and Viber already had agreed what they were?. |
Thank you guys. I love to see you all collaborate and give me your feedback. I do this because i love it and being able to share this with you all makes this more enjoyable. I have more tricks up my sleeve and more components coming. Notice how i am now living with most of my gear for months before i move on. I give equipment a fair shot and this is something I didn’t do before. Lesson learned and this is part of my own evolution and being able to understand audio more and more each day. I look back at myself and my own previous trials and realize the stupid mistakes i made way back when. This is a process that has made me mature far more than i ever imagined. The shootouts are icing on the cake and to be honest, although they aren’t a 100% representation of what happens in my room, they allow me to do one important thing: To allow you all into my room even though you all are far away. Doing this alone can be boring. Thank you for the support and the allowing me into your homes as well. PS: the tattoo, bald head and 20 inch arms are for looks ( like some amplifiers out there lol) Jay |
Wow Jay, . I remember when we tried to tell you that cables make a difference. You did not believe it ...yet. Many of us gave you grief because sometimes you didn't give equipment more than a day or 2. Look at you now talking about how cables make a huge difference , talking about decay, soundscape, and "SOUL". Your last video describing the differences between the Class D amp vs the Class A amp, was very impressive. It now sounds like you have a great EAR and the capability to put into words what you hear. I am impressed . I commend you SIR, for a job Very Well Done ! |
Jays Audio Lab I just wanted to say thank you. I started my search for a complete change in my audio system, good but average, in 2016 when I retired. I read a lot of material and visited the RMAF twice to get the only hi audio actual listening experience I could get; very little is available locally. I found your Audiogon amplifier article in 2017 and used it as a basis for my further directed amplifier comparison. I purchased a used Pass Labs X 150 stereo amplifier because of the reviews and your love for the Pass Labs 250.8. This year I replaced it with a set of used Pass Labs X260.8 monoblocks, a great leap forward from the Pass Labs X150 amp. I have read many of your articles and only last year did I discover your very interesting YouTube videos. I enjoy your discussions about the equipment and your comparative videos. I look forward to your streamer reviews, as it is the only piece of audio equipment left to buy. I may upgrade my amplifier and preamp, PS Audio BHK PreAmplifier, in the future although I am happy with what I have now. What would you suggest as an upgrade for the PS Audio BHK PreAmplifier and Pass Labs X260.8 monoblocks that occasionally come up on the used market? Comfortably retired does not equate to high-priced new audiophile equipment. My wife wonders how I can afford high-priced used audiophile equipment. Ain't love grand? My Current system Denefrips Terminator DAC Marantz AV7703 Pre Tuner Martin Logan Expression ESL 13A Electrostatic Speakers Pass Labs 260.8 Mono Amplifiers PS Audio BHK PreAmplifier Sony Blu Ray UBP-X800 CD/Blu Ray Player SVS PB 16-Ultra Subwoofer Thanks again and keep up the good work. Your video quality and audio quality have greatly improved over the last year. |
Jay, Before the 725 goes, maybe you can at least comment on the relative sonic qualities of it and your mystery preamp. If the character of the mystery preamp is similar to its companion mystery amp we just heard in the A/B, that would shed further light on that amp. I wish you had the time and energy to do an A/B between the two preamps. I was impressed with the 725 video you did a while ago, but that wasn't an A/B. |
It isn’t a surprise WC is ditching the Soulution preamp because when he switched from it to the ARC Ref6SE with his VAC amps the Ref6se was so much better per his comments at the time. That was a case where a much cheaper component (the Audio Research preamp) beat a much more expensive one (Soulution), at least per WC with that particular mix of gear. With both Soulution components he’s now owned, (integrated amp, preamp) he’s found lower cost competitors he much preferred. Like with Magico speakers he never quite embraced, so yeah I wouldn’t expect him to go back there either |
I don't recall Jay saying that ARC or VAC as tube gear was better than 725 with either mystery amp or Constellation. Often Jay likes the diversion of tubes which help him relax. I remember Jay loving the 725 for its clarity, and also loving the mystery preamp for its different, more relaxed presentation, but I hope Jay can clarify how he now feels. A SS vs Tube A/B would be of interest, more so if it is also blinded, although it will be pretty obvious which is which. The tube lovers will say that the SS has unnatural brightness in HF and lack of clarity, and the SS lovers will say that the SS is natural and lifelike and the Tubes dull with less clarity. |
That’s because you don’t want to remember anything that goes against your sonic views. To refresh your memory, WC said this less than a month ago: “Omg i just removed the 725 Soulution and inserted my arc ref6se... 😳 The arc preamp and vac amps is just WOW WOW WOW... I suspect I’m not going to bed tonight. Will it shock some people if i decided to do an all tube rig and ditch my solid state gear? Because right now, that’s what I’m feeling like doing.” I submit that this is quite literally the strongest reaction WC has ever had in 5 years to a component switch. Remember now???? sept 10, look it up. we talked about it for days. pretty hard to miss how much better WC thought the ARC was than Soulution. He said then he wanted to sell all SS. Reread the quote |
kren I think you are missing the point of system synergy. Just because Jay preferred the Ref6SE with the VAC monos doesn't mean the Ref6SE is a better preamp. Jay told me the Soulution 725 preamp is one of the best preamps he's owned. As far as Magico (the brand) goes, I believe Jay has owned at least a half a dozen Magico speakers. He did say you had to open up your pocketbook if you own the M6's but I don't believe that was the case with other Magico models. Was it Jay who never quite embraced Magico speakers or was it you? |
I’m not missing the point. I said clearly “with that mix of gear” and WC’s preferences. ( in particular I said “at least per WC with that particular mix of gear”) His quote above from Sept 10 directly comparing ARC and Soulution, not mine. Go find even one other example where he had a stronger reaction and provide the quote |
I’m not predicting he’ll say ARC better all around than Soulution especially when he selling that now but with his current reference VAC amps and Wilson speakers he couldn’t have been more clear with his spontaneous quote that I pulled. The reason it stood out to me and was so easy to find is because he’s never had so dramatic a reaction, and that’s my point. In fact he’ll probably be mad at me for dredging up that quote lauding the Ref6 at Soulution expense. The only reason I did it is that Viber denied WC had said it when of course WC had with much more gusto than I’d initially implied |
Jay, this speaker company is local to you Best in show! Scaena Loudspeakers, High Fidelity Cables, dCS Vivaldi, Axpona 2019 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGIYuezuIPE |
I’m going to attempt to clear things up for everyone with regards to my Soulution and ARC preamps. First off, comparing a tube preamp to a solid state preamp is like comparing apples to oranges. They are very different and have differences sonically due to their design. Secondly, I’m at a very high level with my system and it becomes more of system matching rather than just inserting a component. The vac monos sound amazing with the REF6SE and i was very impressed by this combo, but i also think it is the synergy between both. Thirdly, the Soulution 725 could possibly be the best solid state preamp I’ve had in here. That said, the boulder 2110 is amazing too but i haven’t owned both at once which would allow me to pick one of the two. Finally, let’s wait and see what my new preamp will bring to the table. I think a lot of you will be highly impressed by it and i am expecting the same. PS: i sold the Soulution 725 but it will be here until the end of this month It will not be part of any rotations although I did record 3 songs today so i will release those videos over the next few days. "I’m not predicting he’ll say ARC better all around than Soulution especially when he selling that now" The Soulution was sold before any of this went down and i didn’t even list it and the buyer doesn’t follow this thread. He has a system that is probably more than mine and has owned the 725 in the past. He doesn’t get caught up with this. The 725 doesn't really need acceptance by potential buyers. It has a great track record so it sells itself. Its resume is pretty full and if anyone is looking to buy a 725, i am sure they know what they are buying. Some pieces just don't need propaganda at all. |
A few comments on some side topics percolating within this thread. One relating to opinion/taste in audio and the other to SOTA sound and does it need to cost a fortune. I get we are in the era of forced equality of outcomes. My 8 year old twin boys played in a Y league hoops game today where they don't keep score....ever. But the reality in audio is no different than in life, there are things done better and there are individuals whose opinions on said better are earned and more valued and groups of said people could rather predictably form a general consensus on the basic qualities common to better gear. From that perch, personal preference for presentation and style has a safe home and it can flourish, hence many versions of best in class. As an example, we can all agree no one wants spurious noise in any reproduction. We are also all entitled to our opinion. Amps and transducers even many today of high caliber still often can struggle to get piano right. If someone prefers a crappy rendition of piano that is perfectly fine. That preference however changes nothing as it relates to performance. From the sound of things, and I am new to Jay's crazy world (and have not read this thread except recent pages) , his opinion in '16 when he started would not have been particularly useful. But now it is quite valuable for a variety of reasons none less his refreshing candidness and vast experience with the esoteric. As he just acknowledged this is a task very high in error particularly when inexperienced. I'm guessing too there is a long list of gear he'd like another crack at as he's gained experience. Safe to assume as well that Jay is knowingly or unknowingly honing his personal preferences largely by accident as we all do "arriving" at some imperfect previously unknown version of it and then messing it up almost immediately.(Jay faster than most LOL) Plenty of ying and yang in this hobby, chase one thing and you are bound to lose another. Which brings us to Jay's current set of preferences in a decent sized room. Of apparent high value is ultimate scale and maximum uncompressed dynamic capabilities with the last octave present with the ability to go into high SPL unwavering. Check. Those values elevate the cost / complexity equation significantly. Those values also by necessity invite easily predictable subtle limitations as well where smaller less complex systems gain a subtle edge that can stay in the realm of best in class overall. Interestingly, 70% of the music selections Jay gravitates too would perform better with the latter. Certainly this most recent duel. 20 years ago there was no digital source from 16/44K that by today's digital source standards would make the grade. Not one. In 1999 I had 4 of Jeff Kalt's Resolution Audio Quantum DAC's running in true differential mode with the best dac chip made at the time the UltraAnalog. Today that setup gets smoked by a $2k NOS DAC from China getting fed a low jitter signal juiced by a well executed FPGA. Right now as I type I am listening through a $4k fully balanced AVC preamp from Great Britian that uses 4 Slagle autoformers and fet switches that it would not shock me if it illuminated more of the quality of Jays MSB stack than his Solution pre that is hitting the road. My point is, back down Jay's current preferences at the extremes by 10%, pick a proper sized speaker for the room you are in, and the source and component quality that is available today and the sound you can achieve in systems in the $20-$30K range knocks on Jays door easily. I am not saying $20-30K is cheap for many, but its the cost of the Levinson reference 30 digital set from the early 90's that is a better coffee table base now. This is my prediction for Jay. He will continue to hone his preferences, realize his most enjoyable listening rarely if ever sniffs the upper ranges of his systems dynamic capabilities. He'll dabble less in esoterica and realize many unsung geniuses of practical circuits and design all around the globe. He'll then get hooked on the unrivaled satisfaction of assembling systems that absolutely kill it for way less coin. |
Good first post and welcome, post more often. The thing I disagree with tho is that for WC cost isn’t really ever a concern and he almost never voluntarily takes a step backward in quality. There are rare occasions but always temporary before it is onward and upward ( possible exception once being at Vivaldi level at DAC and maybe never getting back to that level). It’s a pretty addicting path to follow. Glad it’s his money and not mine, lol |
Will try to, Jay doing an excellent job creating interest in music lovers which is really nice to see. Fortunately for me cost would never limit my choices, but I love value because it always ties to the truth. My point with where I imagine Jay to be at in his journey is I don’t believe he has yet completely (and happy to be corrected if I am wrong ) had the epiphany that he keeps arriving at nearly the same destination with an almost infinite combination of gear when he stumbles on the right combo in his room, hence the Ref6 "stunning" experience. I would argue most of those experiences are falling back on something already attained. Take his speakers and mystery class A amps in his current system. Despite what the designers claim, there have been literally zero disruptive changes in the design of both of those items in decades. Big boxed multi-ways with passive crossovers are still horribly inefficient transducers and distortion and phase generators. Mostly what they do is produce loss and the designer, especially the bigger they get, is tasked mostly with trying to contain the collateral damage to the signal as much as possible. The amps we all preferred in the shootout are the same basic circuit design with multiple output devices from 40 years ago. Differing by design in the complexities of the driver stages and PS and the modes of feedback that companies attach fancy names to suggest breakthroughs. Priced by varying degrees of craftsmanship that we can all appreciate and value as well. Seasoned amp designers around in the 70’s still active might even claim what a pity it is that WC paid so much for output devices in those monoblocks that are likely inferior to the ones they had back in the day, or the stash they have in their closet waiting for their last amp they make for themselves before they hang it up. Contrast that to the enormous disruption in the digital source space. Esoteric makers of DACs are scrambling to fill the 3 chassis 100lb DAC behemoths with god knows what of meaning as a remnant to the late 90’s when we all assumed the reason digital sucked so bad was moslty bad analog output stages. So the fad was to produce DAC’s with insanely overbuilt output stages equivalent to small power amps. Turned out the problem with digital was in fact digital. Digital is being completely turned on its ear and 16/44 can now compete with good vinyl for one reason only, code, which takes up little space. High resolution DAC’s are now easily contained in reasonable boxes and are being fed incredibly high quality pre-processed data streams from other boxes not much more than nice quiet computers with mostly intellectual property inside residing in the FPGA code. DACs are teeing off on the quality of this stream as they are now freed from any processing, relegated to conversion only. My guess was that Jay is eventually going to have increasing clarity of when his money is being put to work and when it is not. In most, that tends to change habits regardless of resources. |
I’m working on noise suppression going forward. I believe i might be done with power conditioners (again, this is not 100%). I have slowly picked up the flavor inserted by some of these power conditioners. This is a great topic for a future video so I’ll leave it at that. Before anyone assumes anything, no I’m am saying sell your power conditioners. They have a place in most systems out there and most of you would totally benefit from it. The biggest enemy is NOISE (floor noise). The issue is too much filtering also murders a lot of the "meat and potatoes" of the presentation. It's like doing chemotherapy: you kill the cancerous cells as well as good ones. |
I found that my PSAudio Power Plant was overall, slightly detrimental, especially to my amplifier. Shedding it for a passive system focused on cleaning up the grounding path really ended up opening the sound up and lowering noise floor without the downsides of the conditioner. Will be interesting if WC reaches a similar conclusion. |
Well, i just put the system back in full synergy mode and here is how it is sounding: https://youtu.be/DQ8OCEVP6_o |
Jay--Bummed. Missed your live chat. Please give us one of those heads-up coming attraction video posts maybe a week ahead. Here too ( did I miss it?). Maybe a dual chat with Mike of Sun Audio next. Once a month would be cool. Hopefully not when I'm at the dentist. Noticed you've garnered some international attention. |
tweak1, Scaena speakers are a contender. As much as I like ribbons, tall line sources are not time-aligned, because the distance to your ears from the top and bottom is different from in the middle, with infinite variations between. The Scaena doesn't appear to be that tall, so this problem is a little minimized. But the Wilsons ARE time aligned, which is a big factor in their clarity. The XLF has extraordinary treble clarity from the main tweeter which is uniquely used down to 1000 Hz, a big advantage. Still, Jay should audition the Scaena, since listening is better than theory. |
@viber6 , @tweak1 , Rich Hollis of Hollis Audio Lab is building a line source speaker and uses DSP to time delay the drivers ( which are electronically crossovered and driven by separate amps) taking into account the differences in distance from the drivers in the vertical array to the listener's ears to make the array time aligned. |
I'm wondering if WC feels the same about the SR Powercell, based upon his comment that he might be done with power conditioning. This time around, he seemed impressed with the Powercell, however, I am guessing that he eventually detected some things that he did not like and decided that exluding the Powercell was a preference for him. I'm sure different power conditioners contribute some good things - the question is - does that outweigh what they take away? Dave |
yea but powercell comes with a nice PC anyways... especially with upgrade I like the new powercell very much, but i guess too much reduction could be detrimental. Like, in a high end chain there are so many tweaks as well as expensive cords and fancy electronics all trying to eliminate noise, distortion, ext. that you eventually get to a level where you wont want more Kinda like over-dampening a room. We actually like some of the reflections. If you had a 100% dampened room you wouldn’t like it as much as a room with strategically placed and not overdone acoustic treatments I think thats what hes getting at when he says he wants to eliminate conditioning? |
Everything makes a difference... Line sources have advantages.....so do point sources. What is really crucial is how something is done. Wilson has 4 veiled binding posts and one veiled spade in series with the mids and highs. You will never get all the information possible doing this. No matter how good your tweeter is you cannot get back natural information that is lost with binding posts, etc. I had a neat experience Friday when I went to my friends house to redo a crossover for his completely custom made Apogee Duetta speakers. After the fix we listened to about 5 different songs through the original fully custom and tweaked crossover. Then we put in the new crossover that I built for him.....OMG....what a difference.....like it was a new speaker. Less bright, less glare, way warmer and yet way, way more information. He played a jazz piece with the old crossover and when it started I said to him.....Is this a mono recording?....then information came in from each side showing me that it was indeed a stereo recording......but the original three instruments that started the cut were so close together I thought it was mono. With the new crossover the size of all three instruments was larger and they were now separate with air around each one.....incredible difference this new crossover made. His custom Apogee speakers gave me the best sound I have ever heard using a streaming source (no master tapes). Would not take any Wilson under $200K for what i heard then.....and he has tweaks yet to make to the network in the speaker and to the footers underneath the xovers. He is going to France tomorrow for 5 weeks and he will be running the speakers continuously while he is gone. I have a couple of pics of his new xover on my site. I will add some more pics, info and pics of his entire system down the road. The input connectors are plastic bolts, washers and wing nuts....the worlds best connecting system....cheap too. http://tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/Speaker_ideas.html Crossover pics at bottom of page. One of the reasons his system is so incredible is his AC system. He is using a 3000 watt inverter.....so completely off the grid and then followed by the incredible Puritan Audio line filter and the Puritan Audio grounding system including a separate grounding rod that he had installed outside his room. Talking about low noise!!!!! No loss of dynamics or anything using this system.....just fantastic. |
At this time I have 2 dedicated 20 amp circuits wired with larger than required (10) gauge wire each with an isolated ground that goes to a separate grounding stake independent from the rest of my house. The wire is standard grade (Home Depot) as I didn’t have the funds to try some of the audiophile in wall wiring brands. The outlets are Audience Hidden Treasure with Furutech GT’s wall plates and carbon fiber outlet covers. Nordost Valhalla pc s connect Nordost QBase 8 (original) with 2 QV2 and 1 QK1 ac enhancers. Pre/pro and amp are each powered with Valhalla and my external Keces power supply for the Innuos server is Frey2. To date, I have not been able to acquire a QKore ground unit but that will be a future purchase. All components are on various sort kones. I recently moved and did all of the inwall changes at one time so I can’t vouch for independent incremental differences, however a few weeks ago I replaced a Nordost Brama for the third Valhalla and the result was just stunning. At my prior home I had dual 20 amp lines with isolated grounds but sharing the same central grounding rod and hospital grade outlets. The PS Audio, definitely was not up to powering the system with the amp but even just conditioning the low power devices left the sound constrained compared to the QBase w ac enhancers and lower end Nordost pc’s. With system currently, the images are more defined. Bass is significantly extended but yet better controlled. Noise floor is noticeably lowered and instruments have a more natural, harmonically complex tonal quality. Unfortunately, during the move I was without my full system for 6 months and my new room setup is inferior to before. But with substituting only a Nucleus + for the Innuos Zen mini and the in wall improvements the sound was vastly improved. The substitution of the final Valhalla is what took everything over the edge. It was as if I doubled the cost of all of the components in my system. Before it was very good, now it is significantly better. I kept the power plant for nearly a year before selling it. About 9 months in, I put it back in the wall and incorporated a variety of the Nordost products as well. In all cases the sound was comparatively constrained. Everything a bit flaccid and far less exciting. Once I removed it, the impact was immediate and obvious. Note that PS Audio versus everything plugged straight into wall yielded some improvements in clarity but lost dynamics so the it was a trade off with overall small improvement. The current setup is significantly better and I do not hear any downsides. This journey has spanned around 3-4 years minus the 6 months. |
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WC, I think you're saying that some power cords can clean up the power enough that you can opt to do without a power conditioner. The other thing that many power conditioners provide is surge protection. Of course, many of us have power amps directly to the wall anyway :-) I have somewhat of a whole-house surge protector at the panel - I'm sure others do as well. Dave |
Psnyder149 said PS Audio (power regenerator) versus everything plugged straight into wall yielded some improvements in clarity but lost dynamics so it was a trade off with overall small improvement. Jay, what exactly did you find? It is worthwhile to improve outlets, wiring, and power cords, but RF noise must be dealt with, especially in urban places. In my NYC apartment, the RF is so bad that variations in sound at times are much greater than variations in amps. The Shunyata Denali 6000 greatly reduces these variations, but the idea of a pure sine wave is appealing. I am disappointed to hear about these drawbacks from the PS Audio--maybe it is due to their regenerators' own electronic distortions. Ricevs has reported big improvements without drawbacks from the Goal Zero battery/invertors. |