Alright folks,
It’s 2am ET and i have finished the shootout. I recorded 3 songs per amp and will release 3 blindfolded videos. If i have time, I’ll release the first one tomorrow (Sunday)
Will a $1700 Class D defeat 200 watts Class A? Can a $1700 dollar amp unseat amplifiers costing 35-40 times more if it's set up with a high end supporting cast?
Stay tuned to find out!
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Hey, what happened to the second video of bottom tier amps? I think the first one was released about two weeks ago. Too risky? |
Haven't had a chance to edit that part. It will come out. |
Jay,
If convenient for you, it would be most helpful to have each video show one song on amp A and B. Maybe that's your plan. That way the A/B can be meaningful for each song on each video. Alternatively, instead of 3 videos, you can make 1 long video with 3 songs in sequence on amp A, then the 3 songs on amp B. The best sequence would be song 1 on A followed by B, song 2 on A followed by B, etc. I can give the timings when each song begins on which amp. I like to call attention to percussion at for example, 1:10 on A and 4:20 on B when I comment objectively on this particular sound, etc. Other people can say, "listen to the male voice at 1:20 on A and 4:30 on B. This is what I hear, and I prefer A," etc.
On the other hand, for the sake of more attention on YT, maybe your idea of 3 short videos is best. Perhaps release each video separated by at least 1 day. Allow plenty of time for people to hear everything on different computer systems if needed. Then next weekend, reveal the identities of A and B. Right now, only you know whether the differences are a wipeout or subtle. Don't tell until next weekend--maximum shock and suspense!
Excellent headline title for YT as you said, "Will a $1700 Class D defeat 200 watts Class A? Can a $1700 dollar amp unseat amplifiers costing 35-40 times more if it's set up with a high end supporting cast?" (You might say, "a $1700 class D 600/1200 watt" if you want.)
Thanks for all your efforts.
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Demo #1 of 3 is now live.As always, headphones for this one if possible. I tried hard to level match volumes and recorded things at 1am (you'll see me put the iPad in front of the camera to prove it) in order to have the least amount of AC noise. Please vote on the poll i have posted so we can see how everyone is feeling about both presentations. I also encourage you all to listen multiple times and not just once in order to capture what's happening. Some say to listen at different times of the day because videos sound different (try it for yourself). Enjoy! https://youtu.be/cRtQuIWOzN8 |
@viber7
I too had an unpleasant experience with Steve Williams while trying to buy 2 sets of Center Stage footers. It was my first time buying CM and I had several questions. The more questions I asked the shorter and quicker tempered he became. Before I called Steve I tried contacting Joe with my questions. I left one phone message and one email. Never got a response. I ended up purchasing the footers but ultimately sold them. I felt the isolation I was using was a better fit for my system.
@zprr & maxima95
Well it appears Ron Resnick monitors this thread. Feels like we got the ol' switcheroo when it comes to why Jay was banned from WBF forum. So why was he banned?
Thanks in advance for your answer Mr. Resnick
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Based on what I have heard from the demo 1, I will have to give Rouge Audio a huge thumbs up. For sure I was not there so couldn't really compare what has happened. But from my equipment I didn't feel day and night differences there. And they are both used with the reference cables, DAC, speakers and preamp so can't tell how many % are actually from the amps. Will it make me to sell my Gryphon and buy the Rouge? Probably not. Anyways Rouge Audio is a great product for its price from what I have heard here. Both A & B sounds fine, maybe not the best, but definitely not broken.
Look forward to the next demos! |
At 1st listen I like the 2nd showing seems to have more air around the voices and more relaxed sounding. Initial showing just had almost too much clarity and notes started and stopped quicker unlike real music. Will have another listen later |
Excellent feedback. Keep it going guys
Great showing for Rouge audio for sure!
One thing that needs to be mentioned, this $1700 dollar amp is matched with 400k worth of gear and this matters big time. Don't think you can buy this and take it home and all of a sudden have the same sound as what I'm getting here. Big mistake if you are thinking this way!
PS. I do believe the volume levels might not be 100% the same. Try to turn up the second presentation just a little. |
Thanks for taking the time to do this. I too noticed the second presentation seemed to be more relaxed as well (I have an EVS modded dual mono IcePower amp). It is very helpful. I more or less expected the result from what I've owned and heard at various places. |
Rather than this artificial ambience multichannel mixing thang you are using......you really need to present natural instruments and voices recorded with a stereo microphone in real space......like Chesky, Mapleshade, Clarity, etc......and add some real jazz in real space....like Jazz at the Pawnshop......and really great classical recordings. This way you can really hear what real instruments sound like......and what real space sounds like. When it is done in a studio with a big mixer.....you really have no idea of what they are doing or what the real instrument or recording is "suppose" to be. Live acoustic instruments in real space shows way more "reality".....rather than just what you prefer.
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Please vote and post comments here.
Listen to the presentations on different devices if possible and then cast your vote. Again, try to turn up the volume a little more on presentation 2 which seems to sound a little lower than presentation 1. |
I’m good - i am not going to play elevator, funeral or high end restaurant music to do these comparisons because none of that makes me tap my feet which i need to feel in order to identify the amplifier that touches me emotionally. |
Today I am away, using an iMac which has significantly rolled off HF compared to my iMac at home. So far, I find negligible differences between presentations 1 and 2. I agree with Jay that #2 may be recorded slightly softer than #1, but the volume steps on my keyboard are too coarse, so when I boost #2 by 1 notch it is too loud.
I agree with ricevs that better recordings would be useful. However, if one amp blew away the other, even mediocre recordings would be able to show the differences. I like the idea that Jay started with this modest quality recording, in order to stimulate us to do careful listening. Later I am sure the songs will be more impressive in their dynamics and wideband sound effects, so it will be easier to differentiate the two amps.
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Wow.....so judgmental! So you think that all recordings made in space with two channel microphones are all elevator and funeral music? I cry when I hear a great instrument.....and it could be just one instrument......recorded correctly. Too bad you can only use pop stuff to feel moved. The recording you just presented did not move me much.....either amp. When something is so moving.....you stop evaluating and just sit there with mouth open, heart open, crying, playing along with it, Wowing, etc.
Have you ever heard a choir or small group do gospel? Oh my God....will make the hair stand on your neck. Yes, Chesky even has rock music recorded this way. Music in infinite in its variety.....just like we are. But when evaluating a component for transparency.....then the recordings you use can reveal.....a little....or a lot.....its always your choice. |
ricevs,
I have loved the Jazz at the Pawnshop recording for a long time. Years ago, on a visit to Stockholm, I went inside the Stampen, the jazz club where it was recorded. The stage was tiny, and there were only a few tables. The recording is LIVE and lively, the kind I really love. It is close and intimate, confirmed by what I saw in the room. Too bad I couldn't hear a performance when I went.
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Hey guys, I apologize for this intrusion, but could we please cease this focus imposed by certain participants on Jay’s forum on Internet politics and return to its intended purpose of posting everyone’s experiences and thoughts about high-end audio components. |
One could always debate a reviewers choice of evaluation of a system. The demo to me by and large showed there were differences but certainly nothing in reasonable (at least to me) proportion to the price differences between the amplifiers. If I had my choice of what to use, I'd probably use something like the 24/352 file I have to this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf_S2l3Y_lM I greatly appreciate the time taken to do this. We certainly couldn't walk into most stores (whatever are left these days) and get the time of day wanting to do such a demo. |
@jmeyers. thanks for policing but if you recall it was Jay that raised the issue in the first place and requested an explanation. These are public forums and transparency is vital to ensure their integrity. Thanks |
I prefer#2. After hearing the video it really makes me question how to justify spending money on super expensive amplifiers. I understand system context, but in my opinion when you are simply changing amplifiers, it's shocking how close they sound through YouTube. |
That extra 5-10% performance gain will cost an arm and a leg. No question about it. Some folks are good staying at 80-90% of their full system potential if it means saving money and others want that extra percentage in order to maximize their enjoyment.
That being said, there is something i will say which I haven’t said: i did not have the class a monoblocks connected in over 3 days. I literally plugged them in last night, pushed play and let them get toasty and started to shoot the video.
I figured that given their price points, they should still be able to win.
Next song will be "private investigation" by Dire Straits.
My advice is DO NOT FAST FORWARD the comparison videos. Listen to the whole video at length. You need to let your ears tell you what’s happening.
One interesting thing is that when the video was first released, the poll had the first presentation winning and now a few hours later, presentation 2 is winning... |
Many interesting comments on the YT channel. One person said that #1 is 1.3 dB louder than #2. In general, when I listen to anything at a comfortable moderate level, the one with a slightly lower SPL sounds more focused and detailed. The louder one has more warmth and fuzziness, with greater homogenization because it is too loud. Of course, if one were much louder by 5 dB or so, there wouldn't be the visceral satisfaction from the other which is much lower volume. So try the best you can to adjust the SPL when comparing the same section of each presentation. Listen at a moderate level for maximum discernment.
The Rouge gain is 25.8 dB. I can look up the gain spec for what I think is the undisclosed amp. If it is also 26 dB, close enough, there is still some uncertainty because if the amps have different tonal balances, the perception of the volume will be different depending on the music. For example, bass dominant music will be louder from the amp with a more bass dominant amp. That's why ultimately everything must be judged by ear. Measurements get you in the ball park, but fine tuning is done by ear.
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No. 1 seems to have more meat on the bones, longer decay and accordingly more romantic. Others would characterize as slightly bloated. With this particular song, that is appealing to enhance the song's relaxed slow pace mood. Pure preference defines this genre.
I look forward to the next video with more dynamic swings and complexity to hear both amps show their speed and authority.
Agree with Jay. More toe tapping music in order.
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ricred1,
My point exactly. I reserve final judgment until after hearing the next 2 videos with more challenging music, and my better iMac computer at home. I'll also try the PC at work.
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viber6,
I’ll preface my comments with, I don’t begrudge any individual that can afford to spend $100K on a component. I’m willing to spend whatever a component cost within my means, if my ears think the differences are worth it.
Based on the video, in my opinion it’s very difficult to justify ten times the price, let alone 40 or 50x the price between the amps based on what I hear through YouTube. I don’t buy the argument about the Rouge excels only because of the other components. It’s my understanding that WC is simply swapping one amp for the other; therefore the amps are the only variables. If the Rouge was in a $400K system and the other amp was in a $100K system then that argument would be plausible. |
@ricred1 These are Rouge amps, not Rogue. Totally different country, company and technology. |
bhvf,
Thanks. Correction made. |
One thing that should be said is that a 3 min presentation of ANYTHING will never tell you the full story of what is happening. I’m a believer that for the most part, only living with the equipment is going to be the only way to know everything that needs to be known. I can’t quite capture the emotional part of the presentation through a microphone.
Another thing, which we haven’t really talked about is HOW MUCH of the presentation is getting "cut off" by the subpar speaker cables being used?
After all, this is the last cable before the speaker so I’m wondering if the speaker cables are somewhat of a bottle neck.
Let’s wait until the other two videos drop in order to further evaluate things.
Here's a quick hint for you all: listen to the busiest parts of the songs when comparing the amps. That is usually one way to clearly define what is taking place. |
Yes, the Rouge Audio Design amp model is the Studio N10-DM, not the tube company Rogue. The base price is 1220 euros. I added WBT speaker connectors for additional 110 euros, and better XLR female connectors for a few euros. The complete costs with international shipping were $1709. There were no customs duties. This is essentially the same amp as the highly regarded Legacy iv2 which retails for almost $5000. As ricevs says, no 2 amps are precisely identical, because of different wiring, chassis, etc.
I am falling in love with this song--what is it?
On an HP PC, the general sound of all music is bass shy with extreme HF emphasis, like an old tiny transistor radio at the beach or a cell phone. Considering the artificiality of this PC sound with the HF emphasis, I can more reliably tell the differences between #1 and #2. At the most passionate parts of the song at 2:20 and 5:58 lasting about 20 seconds each, I perceive that #1 is more brilliant by a HAIR, or a clump of hair, maybe. HF are slightly more prominent in #1. This suits the passion of a female singer when she pushes the loudness of her voice. Even men when singing louder can reach higher freq notes than when singing at lower volume. High pitched females with powerful voices can shatter glass. People may LIKE rounded sound to relax with, but passion is related to energy, like it or not. So for me, #1 brings out more raw passion.
My preference is #1, and I will stick my neck out and guess it is my Rouge. I won't be shamed if I am wrong and the Rouge is #2, since this is still a difficult A/B. I await the next 2 videos.
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ricred1,
Agree with your last post. At home, I have cheap XLR's made custom by a now deceased friend who knew my tastes, and the Shunyata Venom HC power cord which retailed for $300. My cheap XLR's are more brilliant than Nordost Frey 2. I enjoy the benefits from the original Shunyata Denali 6000S, worth the money.
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I understand paying a lot of money for the next level. I'm currently considering the Boulder 1160 amplifier. |
ricred1,
Yes, I would be interested in the Boulder 1161, the one I can lift by myself. It is probably close in quality to the 1160. I hope Mike at Suncoast would be gracious enough to permit an A/B video between the Rouge and 1161 or 1160. These are all high value best buys. By now, the Rouge has been established as respectable by any standard, even if we don't know whether it is #1 or #2 on this shootout. Less than $2K for the Rouge, over $20K for either Boulder. If the Rouge's neutrality is too ruthless for you, you can soften it with ancillary components which you know how to do.
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I think people should understand that the improvements gained by buying something more expensive won’t necessarily ever be proportionate to the extra money spent. However, this isn’t something new. I demonstrated this when I did the DCS vs MSB shootout. That said, if one just decided to not spent extra money unless the improvements are as significant as the extra funds then you’ll never upgrade.
I could bring back the Alexia 2 and compare it to the XLf and via YouTube the outcome could very well be the same as what you are seeing between these 2 amps. I could easily make a lot of you say: " nah i am not buying XLf when what I’m hearing from of the Alexia 2 is 95% of the XLF".
If you are coming from a Parasound stereo amp costing 5k MSRP and upgrading to a 22k boulder 1161 and the expectation is for it to be 4 times better, you'll be disappointed. No level of improvement should be measured by the added money spent.
The Mephisto stereo was like 61k right ? You think the Mephisto monos are twice as good as the stereo given that they are twice the money? Nope...I'll say maybe a 10% -15% MAX. |
"I think people should understand that the improvements gained by buying something more expensive won’t necessarily ever be proportionate to the extra money spent." Jay, with all due respect most people that have been in this hobby for any length of time already know this. I think if you go back and look at some of your post regarding the challenge, you implied that the less expensive amplifier would be totally crushed. In my experience, I have yet to hear any component get crushed. Easily discernible differences, but not night and day differences. |
Agreed. That said, is this going to sway you away from moving up to Boulder? There’s only one way to know and unfortunately that means buying it and trying it in the system you’re familiar with.
Don’t be relying 100% on what you hear through YouTube. It’s understood you don’t get the full scoop doing it this way. You KNOW this is the case.
Yes, i have said amp A kills amp B in the past but you know why i can say that? I’m in the room and that makes the biggest difference. YouTube is good but it’s not going to translate all that’s happening in the room.
If you prefer presentation 2 instead of one then YouTube has done its job with you. Don’t expect YouTube to quantify things. It has never done that and it never will.
I also encourage everyone to read the comments on YouTube. It’s additional feedback that you can use to see how you feel versus the world.
As of today, presentation 2 is still ahead so you seem to be aligned with what the rest of the world is hearing. 😁
If I’m going to add my own opinion from inside the room, I’ll say one of the presentations has more of all aspects I’m looking for while the other just "plays along" pretending to mock the better component.
Another way of putting it, is one these presentations is the original super car and the other one is a car replica (kit car) that looks damn near identical 5 feet away but as you get closer you begin to see how the hood isn’t properly aligned with the quarter panels and other imperfections are quite apparent as do you a walk around.
Unfortunately, you all are doing a visual inspection of both cars at 5-10 feet away and I’m the only within 1-2 feet.
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#2 may be preferred by more listeners than #1, which is OK since this fact merely describes the tastes of Jay's followers. But almost everyone admitted that #2 and #1 are very close. I'm sure that if everyone were privileged to hear them in Jay's system, they would say the differences are greater, but probably still not night and day. Small but significant differences to any live listener? Yes. More to say after the other videos are heard. |
Jay,
"That said, is this going to sway you away from moving up to Boulder? No, I'm willing to spend within my means to go to the next level. Once I hear what I consider to be "better", it's hard to ignore.
"Don’t be relying 100% on what you hear through YouTube." Viewing systems on YouTube is entertaining to me, not a tool I use to make purchasing decisions. |
Understood. To me it sounded like you were pumping the brakes because of the video i released.
This is nothing but great entertainment. Folks who want to spend $1700 should be happy to hear what I’ve presented so far. There’s more to come though. |
ricevs,
What are your own observations and preferences? Thezaks?
On my better iMac today at home, I heard the same things as yesterday on the PC. #2 is a slightly softer sound which I can understand is preferred by some people on this recording, which is highly processed and artificial. #1 brings out the tizzy aspect more. But the bass response of my iMac is better than the awful PC, although nowhere as good as my headphones. I think I hear the bass as tighter on #1 between 2:20 and 2:30 compared to #2 between 5:58 and 6:10. Tight bass is often associated with more accuracy and detail in higher freq. After the other videos are presented, we'll see what Jay says about the bass in his room from #1 and #2, since his room listening is much more revealing than YT. The best excerpts from this recording start 2:20 for #1 and 5:58 for #2. Listen for about 1 min for this impassioned period, but the concluding softer fade-out is also emotionally moving, which I think the slightly more detailed #1 brings out better. |
Great discussion. Jay to be honest on YouTube if you do the level matching, Alexia 2 do sounds similar to the XLF. I have played man in the moon in different videos and they sound alike. Maybe it’s better on XLF but then you prob have a better mic there. YouTube can’t give you the sense of scale, tall soundstage, 3D effect and even lower bass on better equipment. I can feel that the 15% differences on YT could be translated to 100% in real live music. Still, is my Essence 10 times better than Rouge? Probably not. But even it is 2 times better, I am still keeping it and will be willing to purchase it again.
A nice question for you is what do you think the Rogue amp compares to the McIntosh tube amp or even ARC tube amp. Comparing it to the VACs are meaningless. |
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let’s see how many bite on this last video... Confusing messages are in full display on the last video (if you watched it!)
Is presentation 2 really the class a monos or is Jay throwing mixed signals ?
this is the beauty of this !!!
if you watched the whole video, you could have seen the time in which this video was shot. |
Jay,
You can see how much YT attention you get from these shootouts. I hope this encourages you to do more shootouts. I'll listen later to round 2. Are presentations 1 and 2 each the same amps as on round 1? |
The only real reason why it is getting a ton of attention is because people want to see an affordable amp versus an expensive amp... |
I find Presentation 1 superior in Round 1 . Haven’t listened to Round 2 yet.
Presentation 1 sounds denser, fuller, more “organic” than 2. I even raised input level 2 clicks on the YouTube video for Presentation 2, as I felt it was recorded at a somewhat lower level than Presentation 1. Same result.
Based on what I just typed I would guess Presentation 1 was the Class A mono’s . If it’s not ,no “biggie”, as who knows what’s going on in YouTube as it relates to my end ( inexpensive YAMAHA AVR, playing back thru fairly inexpensive Polk Audio AVR speakers ....I don’t use headphones)
Cheers...... |
Interesting... presentation 2 seems to be in the lead based on poll results. |
Jay, I wouldn't sell yourself short by saying it's the ONLY reason. But it's true that in the present state of audio, it's a rare event to hear such a match up, except between audio buddies or maybe an audio club.Many amps are sold exclusively on the web so no shootout at your local brick and motar.
And I don't think those mega priced amps have a 30 day return policy so you can arrange a private shootout. 🥴
Thanks Jay and Viber6 for the Italian connection.
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WC,
I have the same question as viber6 - is the amp in presentation one of video one the same as the amp in presentation one of video two?
Thanks,Dave
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Why should it matter which is which? Nothing wrong with being "wrong" about which one you like. Just say which you like in each video. |
