My preference is DAC direct.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
I like ron17 suggestion that the 725 preamp be used for both the Rogue and the unknown amps. Most of us have preamps and I worry that the DAC connection is insufficient / lacks that synergy, as Jay pointed out in the past. I'm not sure anyone could extrapolate further if things went south for either amp. Put another way, it would be extremely difficult to blame the 725 for a poor showing, as opposed to a DAC straight up. Also, am curious if Viber's can scale up with a monster pre. |
keep in mind that a linestage also has its "preferred" amps to sound good. I am good with whatever makes sense guys. I am just wanting to do one single shootout and that is it. Yes, the Dac direct could mean a little "brightness" will be added, but we all know that. The 725 is awesome, but i can’t say it has been 100% of the time a full match for every amp i have had in here. The 725/Constellation was an outstanding pairing, but now i remember that i did have synergistic cables at that point in time and now i don’t have synergistic. Anyhow, I am good with whatever you guys want. Is it possible to reach a decision by tomorrow night so i can begin to record on Friday at midnight? Discuss it amongst yourselves and i will be checking in. YOU ALL will be directing me what you want front and center. |
The bottom line is that Jay will be doing the listening and will choose whichever of his SS amps and preamps make him comfortable. I just would like to avoid any tube equipment, because I am entering my amp as a strong contender for clarity/neutrality/dynamics. For ultimate clarity, I have no doubt that DAC direct will bring out the best of my amp and his amp. If Jay is uncomfortable about brightness in his system, he said that the Constellation has a little warmth, and he still highly rated it #2 behind #1 which is Boulder. I would be happy with Constellation, and then DAC direct shouldn't make him uncomfortable. My guess is that the Wireworld XLR's are warmer sounding than the Synergistic's but I could be wrong on that. Still, it would be nice for him to say whether the undisclosed amp is more revealing/neutral than the Constellation, since that affects whether he wants to do DAC direct. He hasn't yet rated the undisclosed amp, so that is an unknown to us. After my 1st choice of DAC direct, 2nd choice would be 725, 3rd and last choice would be the undisclosed preamp. Brightness won't be a problem if the SPL's are modest for this A/B. Jay, I hope you have already heard my amp for yourself, so you will have some insight of what you want to do. To test loud dynamics, you can include a song that doesn't have much HF percussion, so any brightness won't bother you for this song. For other songs with lots of HF brilliance, the SPL's will be modest so you won't suffer. Even a brilliant song of Metallica is satisfying at modest levels. I suggest some tasteful Nils Lofgren--you can avoid "Keith don't go," or "Man in the Moon" if you are sick of them. Female voice would be good also. Let's hear some good acoustic guitar twangs, HF percussion like chimes, bells, triangles, as with Lofgren or female voices. Thanks for everyone's thoughts. Thanks Jay for your efforts. |
Yes - it has the optional preamp module and yes it probably puts a lot of preamps to shame but not the caliber of preamps I’ve had in here. The only good thing about using the undisclosed preamp is that i can at least use one set of transparent XLR (from DAC to this preamp) since it is calibrated for this preamp and dac. The second XLR would be wireworld which would go from the preamp into the amp. I also warn you all: as good as the wireworld is, you are still talking about a $3500 XLR versus a $12k XLR. The difference is quite noticeable between both. I think the presentation would be somewhat more "next level" if we use the undisclosed preamp because one set of transparent XLR would be used. This would maximize the performance coming from the DAC and preamp. I also don't think that the DAC will quote show the dynamic swings as clear as using one of my preamps. |
Jay, you love the Transparent XLR's and speaker cables so much, that it would be worthwhile to speak with Transparent and find out whether they can be used between any preamp and amp. Long after my A/B is done, you will want to know this for your own testing of other electronics that you try in the future. On the other hand, If the Transparent between preamp and amp is uniquely calibrated for that combo, then I agree that for this A/B it is wise to use the Wireworld and your cheap speaker cables to avoid apples/oranges variability. Still, the dynamic swings will mostly relate to the amps, which are both powerful. Your XLF's are very efficient, so for most of the songs, little of their power reserves will be challenged. Even with my delicate electrostatics, I don't use much power at the modest SPL's I listen at. If I use a mere 20 watts on some orchestral material, this Rouge revealed to me how the Mytek is dynamically compressed by comparison. And that is with my Rane EQ with little gain acting as a preamp. That's why I say that for our purposes, DAC direct will be sufficiently capable of providing decent dynamics. This DAC's electronics are likely better than my Rane's. And we can have the maximum clarity from both amps to make this A/B listening exercise much easier and revealing. Again, your listening with my Rouge amp now will give you the authority to know what is best, before you embark on the formal video A/B for us. |
Dac direct only for non-serious musings. Everyone knows top preamps will make everything sound better. You conclusively proved that many moons ago and stated as such many times here and on your videos. Why even debating this? You got preamps that are top notch, pick one. Since we have no idea what your preamp is because you won't tell us, it's pretty impossible for us to make a recommendation. Only you know what cards you are holding |
Jay, we all know this is a blind date for you. You're used to uptown ladies but after much prodding, given in to taking out that really nice friend of a friend for coffee. We all trust you will give her the respect and chance she deserves. And after the date, we want to know the juicy details, whether there will be a second date, and the rate and ranking. 😅 |
Jay's audio lab in preparation for the next set of amplifiers: https://youtube.com/shorts/sjH5gnLLvBY?feature=share |
Ok folks, The rouge amplifier is plugged in. Here is what will be happening: -Rouge amp -Undisclosed preamp -Transparent XLR cables (both sets) Rouge plugged into the synergistic Research Powercell with stock powercord on the amp. -Straight wire speaker cables -Critical mass stand under the amp Initial impressions: (3 mins into it) Not bad at all. That said, you all know that i no longer get carried away with 5 min of listening. To me, the connection to the music happens (or doesn’t happen)after sitting down for at least 1-2 hours. My ears will inform me of the character of the component being evaluated. Tomorrow night, i will do my full audition and recordings. For now, i will let the system play music for the next 24 hours. |
Im going to put out this first thought: Class D has outstanding bass control. Very impressed with the sheer grip on the woofers. This is why I said it before, Merrill Audio 118s had outstanding bass. I honestly DO NOT think mid tier amps best class D with regards to bass control. The top tier amps have the grip but even those have to fight class D hard in the bass the department. If you want bass control and can biamp your speakers, do yourself a favor and buy class d for the lows. The speed of the lows is really next level. |
yyzsantabarbara has had delays from stupid Fedex. He expects to listen to his ricevs' modded Voyager GaN starting Mon. He offered to send Jay this amp as well as the Benchmark AHB2. I know the stereo AHB2 sound. It has wonderful purity, much like my Mytek, but it is leaner than my Rouge. I sent Jay the Rouge because I knew it will have more appeal to this group of people. Jay probably will find the stereo AHB2 too lean for him, but yyz and jimmy both say that 2 mono AHB2's are much more dynamic. |
From a post keithr made on WBF "When I hear folks say $15k amplifiers are budget oriented, I feel the hobby has lost its way (see the crazy amp dude's YouTube channel that considers Pass Labs "mid fi"). The average Stereophile reader's system is $19k, but this is WBF after all so I guess it's expected. The reason this hobby has shrunk so much is the focus in the audiophile media and community on high priced bling of the month - I chuckled two years ago when TAS declared the $50k speaker category as "highly competitive." Dagostino is famously designed on form over function. Have you seen the internals of a Constellation compared with the expensive case? Why does carbon fibre and installation lights *on the back(!)* of a Chronosonic impress people?" keithr, don't you think it would be more accurate to say the crazy amp dude placed Pass Labs in his middle tier group based on amps he has personally owned? |
Jay, I am surprised you changed your mind and decided to use Transparent (T) XLR's between the DAC and undisclosed preamp, and then between the preamp and amps. But I want you to show your favorite electronics in the best light, which seems to be with the T's. Perhaps my Rouge will also be shown in the same best light, although it is unknown whether the T which is tuned for your system will also give the same benefits for my amp, which is what we were concerned about. I know that it is lots of work to make the A/B video with all the recording, level matching, editing, etc, and you only want to do it once, which I still appreciate. But informal listening with cable swapping is more fun. My amp doesn't need warmup, the music stops within 1 second of turning the amp off, and I suppose the amp can be turned on again after 30 min while you listen to the other amp. So try the Wideworld XLR cables to see if you find the same comparative differences between my Rouge and your undisclosed amp. Take your time, and have fun with your buddies doing this, playing lots of music. You have already seen how the Rouge is respectable, so it should be fun. I wouldn't want you to do this if I thought the Rouge would be mediocre and you would hate it. If you find that the same differences apply with either the Wireworld or the T's, and you find that the T's make both my amp and yours sound better, then go for the T setup to record the video A/B. I won't care if you get around to the video next week. More important is that you have fun and we all learn something. Aside from this project, it is important for you to find out whether the T's let lots of other electronics offer the same benefits as with your present setup. We all know that nothing stays with you very long, with the possible exception of the XLF. So how will you feel trying to sell the T's with the caveat that they don't have the same benefits in buyers' systems? If you do the above with different amps and preamps, and the T doesn't have to be sent back to the company for retuning, that is a tremendous advantage for your buyer. I welcome another shootout between yyz's modded Voyager GaN and my Rouge in Jay's system. People are going ape about the Voyager. In fact, because of the Voyager's sweetness combined with excellent detail and dynamics, I won't be surprised if people here pronounce it as the best challenger to the giants. Just keep the Rouge until the Voyager and possibly others are heard. What a party! |
@keithr , Please email Jay and he will pay shipping both ways, your Ampzilla 2000s have a great chance to equal the Amps in Jay's stable. Viber has started the reader send in program, please be the next so we can all hear how close Bongiorno's best design comes to mega-buck amps. His email is on his YouTube site, Jay's Audio Lab. |
Jay, Impressive 950 lbs leg press. Don't lock your knees--arthritis danger. I thought you were going easy because of 4 herniated discs in your back. I hope you develop a likeness for these good class D amps. The Rouge is only 23 lbs, Voyager similar. Your 5 year old daughter could carry my 6 lb Mytek. |
A thousand thanks to Jay for the great listening session last weekend! The trip from Switzerland was worth it. It was a real pleasure to meet you and your wife. The dedication to your endless project is very impressive. You have helped so much in the last few years that it is only fair that you get some help from some of us. I am sure many of us would love for you to go to the Munich show in 2022 (https://www.highendsociety.de/high-end-44.html) and get a report of what you hear. Get yourself a plane ticket and I will take care of the hotel. Love the idea of a shoot out with affordable gears from time to time, it spices things up a bit, can’t wait for the results. Thank you Viber for stepping up to the plate. |
Final video of the class a monoblocks before i shoot the rouge audio amp against these class a monoblocks: https://youtu.be/bzW9dwG_psE |
jays_audio_lab Thank You for citing all Cables/Cords utilized in these different systems (shoot-out). One question- are you using the SR Power Cell in your Wilson/Transparent Reference System? The OPUS cabling system is so good that it might not require any Power Cell - type conditioner. Happy Listening! |
@jays_audio_lab , if you're wondering why you've been banned from WBF, I believe I know the reason why. Basically, you've ticked off one of WBF's big sponsors, Critical Mass. Joe Lavrencik even refers to you as a clown. If you didn't know, Steve Williams, who is one of WBF's owners also happens to be a dealer for Joe's CS2 footers and he has worked very hard to convince everyone on that forum that these footers are the best thing since sliced bread. I suspect you will never be invited onto that forum. https://whatsbestforum.com/threads/introducing-center-stage-2m.33340/page-8#post-738504 |
As for the sonic differences between a stereo Benchmark AHB2 and a pair of Benchmark AHB2 monoblocks, here's a youtube video that highlights the differences. It's pretty easy to hear the improvement in sound staging and bass dynamics with the monoblocks in this recording and how the stereo amp sounds more strained. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BC3OCq_OxMM&t=265s I have never heard a stereo amp that sounds as good or better than the monoblock version of that stereo amp, even at low volumes. It comes down to the power supply compromises that are unavoidable in a stereo application. |
As for the stereo Rouge versus the 200w class A monoblock shootout, I will be very interested to hear how this comparison plays out in Jay's room but I already have a pretty good idea. I have not personally heard the Rouge but I have plenty of experience with some of these so called giant killers that are especially favorites of the fanboys on ASR because they measure well as if high SNR and low THD+noise tell the whole story. This includes the Benchmark AHB2 monoblocks and the new gen class D amps from ICEPower (Bel Canto), NCore (VTV), and Merrill Audio (Element 118) that I have had in my listening room. Some may remember that Merrill lent me a pair of his Element 118s for a few weeks and I posted a review on a different thread here on A'gon some time ago. As for 200w class A monoblocks, I don't know exactly what Jay has in his room but I have had 2 sets of amps in my listening room that meet these specifications: the Pass Labs XA200.8 (which are long gone) and the Block Audio SE Mono Blocks (which I have now). I have been able to directly compare the Block Audio monoblocks against the AHB2 monoblocks and VTV Ncore NC2000 monoblocks driving my pair of Wilson Alexia Series 2 speakers. While I can go into much greater detail about the differences among these amps, the 2 biggest differences I hear come down to (1) space and (2) decay. Even with the Block Audio monoblocks set to "Eco" mode which is essentially class AB mode (idle power draw of about 50 watts per monoblock), the Blocks sound much more spacious whereas the AHB2s and NCore sound flatter and more confined. Switch the Block Audios from Eco to Class A mode (idle power draw climbs to about 500 watts per monoblock) and the Blocks sound even more spacious (trust me, I have zero desire to consume 500 watts per monoblock at idle for no good reason and yet this is what I find myself doing). Same thing with decay, with either the AHB2 or the NCore, the decay truncates much more rapidly whereas with the Blocks, you can hear the decay float in the air longer and more realistically. This is especially evident with organ concertos. With either the AHB2 or the NCore (and especially with the NCore NC2000 monoblocks which can output 2,500 watts into 4 ohms), you feel like the organ is expressed forcefully but you also feel as if the concerto is taking place in an anechoic chamber whereas with the Blocks, you get a greater sense of being in a cathedral. Because the presentation of the AHB2 and NCore sound flatter, the layering of detail is less well expressed which is responsible for the perception of less resolution as well as truncated decay. Yes, the AHB2 and NCore sound clean and clear and have good control but they lack the dimensionality of the Blocks (and other amps like the Blocks) that ultimately make the presentation sound less authentic and less engaging. I'm not talking about contrived euphonic space that are introduced by some tube amps (which I don't care for at all) but the real space and depth that you would hear at a live performance venue. When someone tells me their amp sounds like the performers are in the room, my immediate thought is "thanks, but I'll pass. When someone tells me their amp transports the listener to the venue, ok, you've got my attention. To my ears, these are power supply differences and where the less expensive amps seem to be lacking. I'll conclude this lengthy post with a comment about interconnects and speaker cables. Personally, I did not care for Nordost Odin or WireWorld (thin and bright). I agree with Jay, with Wilson speakers, there's a reason why you'll often find them paired with Transparent cabling at shows as there's clearly good synergy there and in my case, I use calibrated Transparent Reference XL interconnects and speaker cables and have been quite pleased. I have tried the Opus Gen 5 speaker cables and even uncalibrated, I found they are a notable step better then what I have although I found the Tara Labs Grandmaster speaker cables to be better still. The fullness and richness is there just like the Transparent Opus but bass dynamics, control, and resolution were superior with the Tara Labs. With Wilson Audio, I don't think Transparent is the only good fit but it is certainly the safe bet. |
viber7, Thanks for commenting, especially since you know classical music, like me. I don’t have experience comparing stereo amps to their strapped mono versions, so accept your findings for now. Same applies to class A vs AB, or having more power reserves. What is your experience with HF material, like string orchestra, quartets, solo violin? Organ music has a lower freq tonal balance, although some HF content to 9 kHz is present. I have found that cables or electronics which exhibit more depth and spatiality unfortunately tend to have rolled off HF. This is especially true with tube electronics, and you wisely point out that tube amps create contrived euphonic space. I’ll add that this euphonic space is accompanied by larger images, which is really distortion. The actual image of the real instrument is smaller and more focused, and these tube and euphonic SS amps add an overlay of bloating which is distortion. I know the stereo Benchmark AHB2 well from 2 months of audition at home. It has the finest resolution and clarity over the entire freq range. However, its dynamics esp in low freq are compromised. Bass is tight but restrained. I have struggled with the duality/paradox that AHB2 type amps are detailed but less dynamic, whereas powerful SS amps are less detailed but more dynamic. My Rouge is a happy marriage of detail and dynamics in my system. I thank Jay for doing a blind A/B so there won’t be any bias for any listener, including you and me. Please comment on your findings and which preference you have. I will just describe what I hear, say which one I prefer, but not venture a guess as to which one is my Rouge. When Jay reveals it later after we all post our findings, that’s when the learning will take place. Heads may roll. Speaking of live unamplified music, sitting closer shows greater detail but less depth and hall ambience, whereas sitting further back shows less detail but more hall ambience and depth. Some recordings have a close perspective, others the opposite. We don't actually know what the engineers designed, but we can choose electronics that show what we want--either close or more distant. |
Yep i had a feeling mR Joe from critical mass would get his panties in a bunch. I did tell him to his face that these footers were adding artificial sound. Since Joe is the manufacturer of critical mass, you all can tell him to come here and debate me here if he dares to. I’d be glad to put out my findings in more raw fashion in here. Nothing will spare him here and on my YouTube channel. Some manufacturers know better than mess around with influencers. This is why many are better off staying with their mouths shut and understand that the whole world doesn’t have to like what they produce and they should learn to live with it. Apple doesn’t lose sleep just because some people prefer Samsung. They don’t come out to argue with the massive amount of influencers on YouTube that criticize the brand. But then again, comparing Apple to Critical Mass is like comparing best buy to radio shack (now gone). |
As I'm currently looking for new amp (used) your information is great. Not to mention invaluable. Listen loudly in a large shop area, acoustics are great. Rock and Roll in the high 90's spl. Solid 2 channel sytem only. Mostly digital, through a pair of 98.2 efficient Tekton Double impacts, SVS sb4000 sub, Benchmark LA-4 preamp and DAC 3B. Current amp Peachtree AMP -500, Class D. Pass labs 250.5 and Parasound JC 1's are interesting. 532 H Mark Levinson also. Anyone have any thoughts or experience with the NEW Parasound JC5?? Thanks, Robert TN |
I wouldn’t sweat it. WC has also asked certain posters on this thread who were trashing his reviews or gear to leave. I didn’t blame him for doing that, those posters were crapping all over the thread. Not surprising that WC wouldn’t exactly be welcome there given his assessment of those footers if they play a big role with on that site. Just move on and keep doing what you’re doing. Don’t make it personal or you sink to that level |
I agree. I just want to expose the BS that you all don't see. Anyway, moving on to the shootout. I plan to record the Rouge amp today and the other amp tomorrow. Expect the videos to drop towards the end of next week. That said, i won't disclose which amp is which. I think it's always more interesting when people choose by simply listening. |
Why are people afraid of this? What's this stupid fear all about? NONE OF THESE MANUFACTURERS PAY YOUR BILLS!!! Your life won't change because they are mad at you. They don't pay for your mortgage or car (unless you're a dealer for them). I DO NOT REPRESENT ANY BRAND as of today and this is why I am public about how i feel about them. You think I'd be saying all the things I say if i was cashing checks from them? YOU ALL, MY AUDIENCE, SHOULD NEVER BE AFRAID to share your own experiences with products you've owned. |
Dear rsf507, Please know that I appreciate your genuine concern about any actual or apparent conflict of interest on WBF relating to sponsoring dealers or manufacturers and proper, fair and impartial moderation. As an owner of WBF, and as a back-up moderator, I take personal responsibility for inadequately moderating Joe Lavrencik’s posts on WBF. Our primary moderator is not an owner of WBF. No manufacturer or dealer, whether sponsoring WBF or not, has any ability or influence to ban a WBF member. That has not happened, that does not happen, and I personally guarantee to you that I will never allow that to happen. The allegation to the contrary is simply false. Finally, we pride ourselves on encouraging and supporting our members to post their genuine and honest thoughts and opinions. Best wishes, Ron Resnick |
I think I recall that Jay said that his expensive Boulder amps and such didn't benefit from the Critical Mass stands because their casework is first rate. Perhaps more flimsy amps will. He is placing my Rouge amp on the CM stands, which is probably better than when I had them on 1" plywood on the floor at home. For the shootout, his amps are on the Artesania, so maybe they have an advantage, but I respect his wishes to avoid the hassle of lifting his heavy amps off the Artesania and then on again. |
Yes, @keithr , what I have suggested is purely speculative and I could be wrong. Your response suggests you know the truth and so please share. I have been a member of WBF for years and there are good people there and good discussions do happen there. I have had private interactions with Steve Williams. He can be prickly. I have purchased CS2 footers from Steve and was dismayed to hear him badmouth the competition when we spoke by phone. He even yelled at me for suggesting another product was just as good. I won't lie, I lost a bit of respect after that and have chosen not to do business with him again. Like any footer, platform, rack or component that impacts vibration, they will each have their own character and so not surprisingly, YMMV. I happen to like what the CS2 footers do for some components, even very expensive components and so it's probably not fair to say the CS2 are not appropriate for all ultra high end gear but I also understand what Jay is trying to say. With cost-no-object gear like Boulder, as an example, it is less likely those companies have left anything to chance when they design their gear and so the voicing of their products with the footers that are in place is likely deliberate. You can certainly alter the presentation with a certain rack or footer but then you'll need to decide if the difference is an overall improvement. With the big Block Audio monoblocks I have now, I have tried the CS2 footers and like Jay found with the Boulders, I am preferring the stock footers to the CS2 but a few audiophile colleagues who came by preferred the CS2. There's really no way to know for sure unless you try. What I like about what Jay does is he shares his opinions but then lets others hear for themselves. While YouTube is not a complete substitute for an in-home audition, there are certain qualities that come through well and so the service that he is providing is quite valuable. For that, I am grateful. |
@viber7: I only try to give my opinion with things i own. I have never told people or force them to buy what they don’t want. It’s their money and they are entitled to spending it however they want. Some people simply refute my opinion at first about something and later down the road they realize what i said was actually accurate. This has happened several times. Thank you for your candor viber7. |