chazzzy007 - I will no longer comment to you on this subject. If you want to continue then PM me. There's no need for this public display in WC's thread.
Please - let's get back to WC's journey.
Dave
Please - let's get back to WC's journey.
Dave
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
I submit that no one was "bullying" Viber 2 pages back. They were just asking that often "absolute" opinion that Viber takes is only absolute for himself and no one else. It may have also been that some were wearing thin on the offtopic stuff. I know, I was one of those. And I refrained from commenting, but finally after a few days, asked that that type of commentary be reconsidered/restrained. We all have our reference, but it is OURS alone. Trying to make it for all others is wrong. BTW, Viber6 said something I totally agreed with yesterday and I quoted him about that. Never heard anything about that though. |
@ron17 Both M2 and M3 MPods height is adjustable from the top. The M6 Mpods height can be adjusted as well, just not as conveniently. @henry201 I reviewed the M3 manual and it states (and shows a photo) "USING A 1⁄4” HEX WRENCH, ADJUST AND LEVEL THE M-POD BY TURNING THE EXPOSED STUD. WHEN THE IDEAL POSITION HAS BEEN ACQUIRED, CAREFULLY THREAD ON THE M-POD TOP." Both the M2 and M6 manual omit these leveling instructions. Are you saying leveling the M2 and M6 is performed the same way? Jay, sorry for getting off track but as you remember you and I discussed leveling the M6 when you had them. I thought you told me you contacted Magico about leveling the M6 and was told it was not possible. Thank you henry201 |
I actually think Viber is really good at hearing things in music (and maybe chazzy is too), but then he arrives at bonkers conclusions based on his fringe preferences haha. Which is fine if that’s his opinion just don’t push it on all of us. But in terms of hearing things he is good. Or maybe he just writes way more about it then anyone else cares to. That could be it too. Like I said earlier most people just say what they like and maybe the highlights, not a treatise. I think one of chazzys assumptions is that because nobody else wrote as much as he and viber about the dacs that only those two heard so much. Maybe, maybe not. Recall a month ago when people were guessing about Vibers hearing and violins and I said it’s possible he could hear as well or better than most of us. I don’t think hearing is his problem, haha, but by definition any of us odd enough to be on this forum have issues in the societal scope of things, haha (that’s intended to be a joke) |
bach128 posts06-25-2021 4:15pm"He doesn't get it and never will. Too bad for us." bach128 posts06-12-2021 9:08am"WTF ^ This is a thread you started. Guys are passionate about music and gear. You have to be able to take in the praise and accept the criticism. Like you say, no speaker or component is perfect or will suit everybody. Thick skin is called for here." I get it Karen. Check your soy levels. |
Kren, Yeah, Viber definitely doesn’t have a hearing a problem. I was reading this thread to catch up, and I came across the segment where Viber said he like to EQ his music to raise the treble. First thing I thought was he plays in an orchestra and thru the years lost hearing due to the high decibel levels. How close to deafness must he be? Lolz 😄😄😄 That stuff that he heard though is really hard to hear. I have a good headphone system and good 16-17 kHz hearing and I had to really listen. I was curious about why he heard what he heard vs what you heard which is why I asked what you used to listen. Viber uses a Mac plus simple headphones. I asked what kind. Waiting for his response. |
Oh, and yes some of Viber’s post are crazy weird!!! Lolz 😄😄😄 But you know he’s been on this thread for years. Gotta give him that. Hes stuck in here despite all the criticism. RESPECT. Some of what he posts is also quite informative. His crazy stuff makes it tough to want to decipher which is which though. That’s too bad. ☹☹☹ |
Jays_audio_lab OP4,200 posts06-25-2021 3:31pmIf you all are itching to burn cash, just send it my way instead of buying redundant stuff... I'll put it to better use in here ☺️ Says the guy who's bought and sold 2 million plus in gear. 😄😄😄 Props to what you do and for putting up with all of us in here bro. 🍻🍻🍻 |
Frankly, I am honored to be the subject of so many interesting, insightful and critical responses. I don't try to stir up trouble for the sake of notoriety, but just describe what I hear, putting it into my perspective of long musical and audio system experience. It will be surprising when I now reveal that my approach to live music is somewhat different than for audio systems. This is relevant because Kren's excellent, informative connoisseurship of Spendor speakers reminded me of a few things. I appreciate Kren's taste in the new more detailed Spendor designs, as having the best combination of the sweet classic Spendor sound with the new technology precision. Spendor is a GREAT classic company founded long before Wilson. When I dumped my huge Maggie Tympani 1D, I got the mini monitor Rogers LS 3/5a, and was hooked on it for a few years for its clarity and naturalness. Someone played a Spendor mini monitor for me, and I appreciated its greater beauty even if the Rogers had more snap. I know that few people here are interested in violins, but Kren's taste is similar to my holy grail quest for my dream violin my whole life. I have played a few thousand old and new violins made from 1500 to the present. The few rare, highly prized violins now command tens of millions of bucks. I was transfixed when I played a few of them. At one auction, in my left hand I held and contemplated a gorgeous Amati, made in the mid 1600's. This beautiful looking, sweet sounding instrument was owned by Mussolini. This tyrant at least had great taste. In my right hand I held a Stradivarius, made in the early 1700's. Amati made feminine looking sweet instruments that weren't as powerful as those of his best student, Strad, whose innovative sound was bolder, more powerful, not as sweet. Strad is more highly valued today, because it offers the best combination of everything--power, HF brilliance, and still excellent sweetness. 600 Strads survive, I played about a dozen, and one which was truly special. I think of Kren who seems to have optimized the combination of sweetness and brilliance in his choice of his present Spendor D model. So in my music making, I like the combination of sweetness and brilliance. The trouble is that no audio system approaches my musical experiences as both listener and performer. I regard the live experience as the MUSIC, but view an ideal audio system as merely the passive honest messenger who transparently reveals the news (music), without editorializing the news. I love the colors of the real music, but if the audio system colors or editorializes it, I am losing the real music to an extent. The truth is that all systems editorialize, and I seek the least editorialization. So my quest for the highest clarity and detail in the system is different from my quest for the beautiful colors of the real thing--the live unelectronic music. Chazzzy, I have used several headphones in my regular audio system. My favorite is Beyerdynamic 880, then AKG 1000, Grado 1000. I tried various electrostatic phones--expensive Sennheiser, Stax going back to 1980. I had hoped that the purity of the stat phones would give me the purity of my stat speakers, but the headphone effect is like being in a closet, which greatly magnifies the bass, muddying everything. I have improved the situation by using small cups around the cushions which give me a little distance from my ears, creating a close range ear speaker. Still, the tonal balance is not as pleasing as my in-room speakers. My favorite phones I listed are dynamic ones. Horrors--I have bashed dynamic room speakers while I like these dynamic phones! Why is this? The dirty secret is clever EQ by the designers of these phones to avoid the confining closet effect of phones on your head, and tailor the sound to the designer's liking. Judicious EQ really works in many situations. I haven't used these phones on my computer outputs in a long time, so I don't remember whether they benefit me. Part of this is laziness, but many headphone lovers after initial fascination, get tired of it. We like music in a real space like our room or hall, but don't like it given by intravenous injection with the headphone. I'll get out my Beyerdynamic 880's and listen again. So for all of Jay's videos over the last year or two, I have listened with just my iMac stock audio system. It's good enough to let me hear the differences Jay presented. I wish Kren well on maximizing the potential of his Spendor. If a Chord dac has the precision that opm says, then the Spendor could have that magic marriage of sweetness and even higher clarity, which I enjoyed when I briefly played that great 1736 Strad. Well done, Kren! |
pokey77, Oh yes, thanks for acknowledging agreement. Even with different preferences, there was something we agreed about. The more open are the communications, people can realize they agree about more and more. This requires an open mind. I could come over to anyone's house, blindfold them, learn their tastes, and show how I could please them with judicious EQ that suited them. If they want more detail, I could swap their speaker cable for zip cord, and they would beg me where to buy this unknown component for $10-100K which reveals more HF and dissolves veils. "Oh, is there a review of this 500 lb monoblock or cyber plasma cable that I could read to confirm what I just heard?" No there isn't, from the audio press that thrives on presenting expensive things to serve the interests of the audio industry. Now Jay has concluded that spending over $30K or so on a dac is a waste of money, which should be put elsewhere. I say the best speaker. I stlll preferred the MSB over the cheaper Rossini, but the differences were small. You could live happily with either dac. |
Viber, So you were not even using headphones to listen to Jay's DAC videos? You were able to hear what you did over the stock speakers of the iMac??? Not long ago I watched a really good documentary on the evolution of the violin and the genius of some of the early makers like Stradivarius. Quite interesting. |
One of the aspects of that violin documentary was the tone chasing and how the age of the woods used made for tone and how Stradivari was just a genius in his violin making. The original violins makers and violinists were the original Gearheads in how they chased tone thru the making and purchasing/playing the best violins. They are our ancestors... 😄😄😄 |
This hobby should be fun but unlike other hobby's what one gets out of it is personal, just by it's nature not everyone is going to be in total agreement. Bottom line should be about the music and not trying to be right or convince others that you are. Personally i have other hobby's i like cars and collect vintage race motorcycles. I have a C8 Corvette coming next month and today i just ordered a Ram TRX. For me having more than one hobby keeps me from getting obsessed in one. This could work for others. I bring this up because i did not log on all day and when i did this evening all i read is three pages of bickering. I read this thread to hopefully learn something and to read what might be coming next from Jay, opinions are fine but it seems some are beyond that. Lets all take a deep breath and get back to having some fun. |
Yep Rogers was another BBC era brand I forgot to mention and of course the LS 3/5a is probably one of the more famous speaker models of all time. Still loved by many nearly 50 years on. The Brits loved and still do the mini monitors because they image so well and work great in the typically smaller listening rooms of European homes/apartments. This is getting into the weeds but there was actually quite a rivalry in the 70s between the LS3/5a and a competing Spendor design, which was said to be a little more aggressive but probably not quite as popular overall. My “classic” model I mentioned is the SA1, which derived from that old Spendor (same name but different dimensions, see 2008 Stereophile review for more details), and was their flagship mini monitor from 2008 until D series was released in 2015 or 16. I enjoy mini monitors too (though I prefer full range floor standers much more when practical) but if you want music wherever you go bookshelves are great for smaller rooms. So the SA1s are in my office at work. And the D1’s, which just destroy the SA1s sonically in every way, are my bedroom speaker. |
@chazzzy0007
Amen . Agreed 100%. I have tried to say this many times but certain people , just will not believe it . They have a Bias against Tubes. |
Kren, Yes, for smaller scale music, mini monitors are quite compelling. One additional reason I just thought about is how the drivers are close together, creating better time alignment. Perhaps Dave Wilson was inspired by mini monitors and wanted to create large speakers to utilize this concept. With my medium height electrostatics, I place them close together to obtain tight imaging like my former Rogers mini monitor. What do you think of ricevs' most recent video of those medium size cheap speakers a few pages ago? I'll see if I can post the link later today. chazzzy, Yes, I heard all of Jay's videos using the stock iMac system exclusively. For video 3 of MSB/DCS at work, I used my HP laptop exclusively. That system has less bass and more HF dominance than my home iMac. I was better able to hear the differences using the HP vs iMac. Since I mainly listen for midrange/HF accuracy, I found the HP system to be more revealing. No headphones in either case. I will get out my headphones and see if I can hear the differences easier than with the stock iMac. On violins, the pinnacle of design and results was reached by Strad. He lived to 93 and was still making violins when he died. He experimented with different shapes, thicknesses of the top and back. I played an early 1690 instrument, and mostly the instruments of his golden period from 1700 to 1736. That wonderful 1736 was made at age 92, the year before he died. (There is hope for me as I continue to improve with age.) It is pictured on the cover of a CD/LP from 1987, to commemorate the 250 year anniversary of Strad's death. It is early digital and has some severe digititis in a few spots, but it is live and upfront exciting. It is SCD13 from START (state of the art) Records, released 1988, called Gala Stradivarius Concert, from the Royal Academy of Music Foundation. The entire string orchestra plays Strad instruments (he also made a few violas, cellos, basses). I have both the LP and CD. No later violin maker has figured out why Strad is still king. I have read theories which sounded good. One particular maker claimed he understood the great makers' tuning system of topographic thicknesses of the top and bottom. I played his instrument and wasn't impressed, unfortunately. So SOTA was reached 300 years ago! Sonus Faber is an Italian speaker maker inspired by the great Cremonese violin makers. Their models include Amati, Strad, Guarneri, the greatest families of makers of all time. The violins of Amati appeal to dainty women who like their sweet, delicate sound. Guarneri del Gesu was the greatest of that family, whose sound tends to be more aggressive and bold of them all. I played a few del Gesu's, and hated most of them, although my friend said that the walls were shaking from the power of a del Gesu he tried. The most prestigious violinists tend to fall into either the Strad or Guarneri camp. Some own both, for different music and moods. rh67, Yes, it is good to have a few hobbies so you don't go overboard on any one. The mechanical precision of motorcycles and cars can help appreciation of well designed audio gear. |
Jay, I just listen to the new link you posted on my stereo system and the difference is night and day to the one posted previously (new mic). Using the same settings, I went back to hear the previous song again, and it still sounded like before (bad sibilance on the voices). I also used headphones on the previous song, and it wasn't nearly as bad compared to my stereo system. Headphones and my system both sounded good on this latest song. Did you change anything from one song to the other? |
kren, Here’s the video from ricevs of the ultra cheap Lil Audio Silver 8 system. https://youtu.be/p_VqDN5-878 On the 1st song, "Way down deep" to me the overall sound is brilliant, sharp and clear. To me, all the selections show excellent resolution and neutrality from the diverse voices and instruments. My guess is you would find the tweeter too sharp and hot, and the voice somewhat cold and sterile. Your Spendor D9.2 looks like a nice design with sweeter midrange/HF than this Lil Audio. What do you think? For only $11K, I see why you didn’t find any speaker to equal the D9.2. To spend $15K or more on the Bartok, much greater than the cost of the D9.2, requires some soul searching, unless you think your D9.2 cannot be beaten at many multiples of the price. All the full range Wilsons are multiples of the price, and perhaps even though they might have more HF detail than the D9.2, the sweet midrange and coherent HF of the D9.2 might be superior to that range in a Wilson. It would be great if you can record this song and post here so we could compare the two systems. Jay, Your latest XLF video with the gold bullets sounds great. There is more sweetness and still the excellent mid/HF detail of the XLF. This could be your winning combination that cannot be beaten by any other speaker for what you want. That Lil Audio system does challenge the XLF, though. I hope you can demo a few of those selections on your XLF. Thanks. |
No interest in posting videos or trying to convince others to like what I like. I really don’t give a damn what anyone else likes and I mean that matter of factly not in a dismissive or smart a$& way. Plus this thread is not about that. If I did that, all that you and maybe others would do is post other things to try and upstage it, which I wouldn’t care about anyway. As I said, I did all the legwork I needed to before I settled on the speakers, and it was in person listening. I don’t really do piecemeal upgrades. My next upgrade won’t be for a few years and it’ll be wholesale so I’m not looking to improve any particular component in meantime. Not being dismissive because I know you think you’re trying to help but I’m not really looking for any. Well other than the info I pick up from WC’s trials bc my next system will probably be at the DAW/m900u/Bartok level but it isn’t any time imminent. This thread is for stuff way above my current system and the less we talk about the latter the better, haha. I can hear everyone else going, yeah dude! |
Prepare to hear a new XLF soon. I just went back to the stock spikes and removed the stillpoint ultra 5s... The speaker did a 360 in so many ways. The bass is now omg deep at any volume level. It is more musical and warmer in a good way. It sounds far less "hot" as Viber calls it. This feeling of having more "caffeine" in the presentation is now gone. I'm shocked at the change in tonality. I am starting to feel that I'm not the man that enjoys a lot of these devices that artificially enhance the sound. I will go into this in more depth on a future video. For now, just know I'm not doing ultra 5s under the speaker anymore. I'll try them under the DAC , ,preamp, etc. |
Jay, I just saw the new video from today. The presentation of the Evo and Rossini is beautiful. So rich and warm. Recently these have been some of the very very best demonstrations of the ’Jay House sound’ you’ve been chasing since you started your journey. In another post you mentioned you thought the Evo sounded a bit ’dark’. Well it’s a bit warmer than some if the other amps in the Gryphon lineup but the tonal character is gorgeous. Superbly rich. Gryphon has shown it has so many ways to do tone right. Bravo! 👏👏👏 |
Greyhound, I’ve had tubes in my DAC for a few years but this year built a headphone rig. Long story short is that I never thought headphones could rival 2 channel listening. It does and tubes are a big part of that. Whenever I listen to my 2 channel system I think nothing is better, but when I listen to my headphone rig I don’t miss my 2 channel at all. Both do some things extremely well. One interesting aspect of this hobby is ’the gear’ and collecting it. Jay loves that and it’s cool to be part of his journey. Tubes are now a part of my journey and I’ve got a collection of 6922’s and 5u4g rectifiers that seem to be growing fast. Lolz RH67, Congrats on your new Vette! |
I agree. I forgot to mention that it has the synergistic research orange fuses installed. Ok so the right word/comparison just hit me with regards to what i heard with the ultra 5s under the XLF: it gave the speakers a feeling of a PA system at times with certain music. That's the best way to describe this. |
Vibee, Thanks for your post on the Violin and Stradivari. The chase for tone goes back centuries and we are part of Jay’s chase now. Musicians thru the centuries have always searched for their own particular house sound. Drummers also chase their own sound. Eddie Van Halen’s quest for tone was one that never ended. Listening to the first Van Halen album one would think, ’that’s it’s. His 'brown sound' is legendary amongst guitarists. But he continually changed what he was trying using new things and different parts in his gear. In a sense that’s Jay. You’d think that with everything he’s had in his home he’d be happy. But here we are today and he’s still chasing tone. Just like EVH. If anyone is interested here is the documentary I found so interesting. Stradivari and Guarneri. 2 of the original tone chasers. https://youtu.be/79-eaaKLsgU |
Sometimes keeping it simple is better. My Wilson's to me in my room sound better with the casters as opposed to the supplied spikes. Two weeks ago at the audio show i was talking to a DAC manufacture after i noticed he just had a cable from the router to the server and just a Shunyata Omega USB from server to DAC, no switch box and no filters or clocks, he told me that after thousands of hours of listening keeping it simple and the tech employed in the DAC provided the best SQ. This seemed to be the current theme as most of the other vendors had similar set ups. |
My XLF didn’t sound great with casters. They sounded like they were out of phase. The bass wasn’t as deep with casters but omg the spikes made a jaw dropping change. This is the biggest change i have ever heard from any speaker I’ve owned. No other Wilson or brand has morphed as much as this XLF did when going to spikes. I've done mpods on mágico and also spikes on other Wilsons and there was a change but nothing like what i just heard. |
@jays_audio_lab Well, I'm glad that the XLF is working out so good for you - wish I could be there but CA to FL is a long way. As I'd mentioned to you in a PM, I thought the Alexx was better. Admittedly only heard the XLF three times and always on different occasions but same dealer with ARC twice and Naim the other time (liked Naim better). And I've heard the Alexx 1s many times and the Alexx V a few times, same dealer but different amps; Alexx with D'Agostino Momentum monos/pre and Alexx V with BAT Tube Rex 3 monos/pre. Seems you've mostly had bad luck with footers. Are the XLFs set up to Wilson spec or just to your liking? |
In dac summary it sounded like Alexandria XLF might not be long for the room but now it sounds like you’re at a personal best in terms of what you’ve ever had (don’t recall “freaking stoked” ever before). And you only have a stereo amp with msrp under 40k on them. Imagine if you still had the Boulder monos and preamp…. |
Some like the spring based stands better than any footer....check out the reviews on Townsend Audio. You can buy Smalley springs for a $100 that are as good as the Townsend, and you don't need to damp the springs.... http://www.townshendaudio.com/hi-fi-home-cinema-equipment-vibration-isolation/hi-fi-home-cinema-vibr... https://www.smalley.com/wave-springs?creative=270098678569&keyword=springs&matchtype=e&n... |
^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ IMO the the warmer Mephisto would be a better match with the XLF’s than the more neutral/dry Boulders. Personally I can’t wait to hear the MSB/XLF with the Antileon. I think the MSB is going to match quite well with the Antileon sound signature. I think it will give the MSB a bit more of the tonal richness that we all heard thru the Rossini in the shootout. |
This is exactly my feeling too. The speaker got "warmer" for lack of a better word - or better yet; it sounds more relaxed and engaging. The spikes almost feel as if i changed the dac for something more analog and removed all silver cabling. I never expected this drastic change because i never heard such change with all the other speakers I’ve owned. I kind knew what to expect once i changed the footers to spikes because of my previous experiences, but with this XLF? It’s a revelation. When i first played the XLF i felt that the sound wasn’t anywhere near the more analog sound of the Alexx or even the Alexia or Sasha. I was thinking to myself: maybe this is what the flagship speaker was supposed to sound like? This ultimate resolution that isnt held back or kept at bay? maybe this is Dave Wilson’s idea of flagship and his son Daryl is something different?Maybe it’s my amps ? Should i go to Lamm amps or VTL? Maybe i need to buy transparent Opus cabling? Maybe this XLF has different requirements that the smaller siblings did not? All these were questions i was cycling through while being patient because there are too many variables. Anyhow, this took me to undo a lot in order to "undress" the speaker as much as possible and step one was to use stock spikes. My next step was to remove the critical mass footers from under the music server and ultimately remove all my powecords and start from scratch. This is a PERFECT EXAMPLE for you all of what you have to do when something doesn’t seem to click. You gotta go back to basics and figure out what is adding the unwanted sonics. My biggest help was that I’ve owned many Wilson speakers so i knew what i was looking for. It should go without saying that changing speakers will often times result in you having to eliminate from your system something that did miracles with your previous speakers. Once you bring new speakers in, the rest of the supporting cast is on a 90 day probationary period. |
Very honest post above Jay. Thank you... 👏👏👏 TBH, I think as you get a better feel for the XLF's you'll get them super dialed in and we'll really hear them sing. That setup syatwm they have seems pretty sophisticated so it may take some time. In the setup I hear them in they are magical. Very analog sounding with no hint of edges or glare and what I've described as an effortless presentation. Everything in that system though is set up to make those Alexandrias sound their best. Be patient and take your time. I think you'll find it's worth it. 🤙 Just an fyi, as I've been posting the last few hours, I've done so while enjoying a listening session I just can't seem to pull myself away from. Cheers... 🍻🍻🍻 |
So cool that Viber thinks the $3500 system that I showed using a pair of $500 drivers mounted in home made boxes might be as good as Jay’s $400,000 system......he he. And the drivers were not even hooked up in the most transparent way. With a full range driver you have perfect time and near perfect phase alignment.....better than any Wilson. And, if mounted on an open baffle.....no box sound........and cheap as heck. One of you guys needs to buy a pair of these drivers and put it on a 4 foot high by 2 foot wide dead baffle with one foot by four foot wings on each side going straight back (flat in room to 40 hz). Will take you just a few hours to make a crude version.....if you burn it in hard for 200 hours and hook it up according to my instructions (soon to be posted on my site, as well as some accessories to make it happen easier).....you will have your mind completely blown......add a pair of ESS AMT super tweeters crossed over with a single copper foil cap and you have moved beyond heaven. Or would you would rather play with heavy expensive name brand boxes that are hard to drive and need heavy expensive amps....and get worse sound. Try it! What have you got to lose?....less than a grand. A few hours? These drivers are 97db.....you can drive them crazy with 10 watts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have a friend with the above system and is now adding two 15 inch woofers on a same size baffle to add some serious slam on the bottom. He will drive the woofs with a solid state class A amp using an inexpensive electronic xover kit from Pass. I will have pics on my site when he has made the new baffles and installed everything. He lives in Pocoima, CA and I bet he would not mind people over to hear it in person. Of course, you can make your own very easily, anywhere in the world. |
Correction to something I said above. I actually am very interested in hearing what others like and why. Once, not a thousand times. What I have zero interest in, or don’t give a ___ about, is trying to convert them to what I like or change their minds. When I re-read what I had written I realized that didn’t come out right. |
My sense is Darryl Wilson will be even better than Dave. Every model so far he has led has just gotten rave reviews, with almost zero criticism other than I suppose the massive escalation in price, which criticism is warranted probably (though I have no idea of the cost to build and I don’t think that’s new with Darryl it’s been a trademark since the founding). Some of stuff Dave did had plenty of detractors (like the watt puppy tweeters for example or really any of the speakers with the metal dome tweeters). |