WC I dunno about the channel views but on this thread I feel like the dac shootout got more people to actually offer their opinions here on the sound than almost anything you’ve done yet on the channel.
Maybe because it so different from anything you’ve done and using arguably top two brands |
@golfnutz:
What is your set up? What are you using to listen to the videos? Maybe i need to buy the same so i can hear things closer. |
golfnutz,
Many of these pop recordings are drastically boosted in the upper midrange and HF. A big market is the teenage kids with their inferior speakers, who love to crank the HF for pizzazz. The engineers seek to please the teenagers. When heard on the XLF, these recordings have the obvious excessive sibilants. Still, the XLF may have some HF emphasis compared to other Wilson top speakers like the Chronosonic. We compared the same song on the Alexx and found that XLF has more HF. While Jay was waiting to get 5K subscribers before the dac shootout began, I posted a superb video of Peter McGrath presenting the flagship Master Chronosonic on different types of music. The last selection was a classical recording which drew awe and respectful applause from the people who heard it. Classical recordings are usually recorded more naturally, and singers don't have that excessive sibilance on these recordings on great speakers.
That said, we don't know if the new mike has more HF emphasis than the old mike. Jay said the Antileon is darker than the Essence. Dac direct without preamp will have more sibilance than with preamp. Only Jay can do his A/B mike tests and find out whether the new mike is the culprit. Most likely, the XLF is revealing the truth about the recording. Still, mikes are like speakers as transducers, and can drastically affect the recorded sound. |
@kren
Yes i agree with you.
That said, today has been the revelation that i needed. The hot tweeter is or was due to the silver bullets from synergistic Research. The antileon Evo made this easily heard. I will now only use the gold ones. I'm shocked that even the DAc straight into the amp didn't give me fatigue when using gold bullets on the cables. |
Jay, it’s a $20 cable I already posted the like to. If you had a laptop, you could plug it directly into your DAC and hear what things sound like with your own system. I go directly into an MSB DAC, to Wilson Audio Speakers.
The previous mic didn't sound like this at all. Yes, the new mic has better bottom end, but worst top end.
Just keeping it real. |
Thanks man. I'll keep that in mind. This is the feedback i need. |
Trying to keep up here whew. Definitely a lot of back and forth from the shootouts here and that’s a good thing.
Re: the Taiko Extreme. Single best improvement in my system, in large part because it continues to get better and better. Yes, expensive and steep barrier to entry. As Jay has mentioned, since the initial model, they created their own software to replace Roon etc that is less noisy, improved their USB drivers and rolled out improved USB cards. I initially ran an expensive switch on its own LPS which boosted the SQ notably with the Extreme. Today that switch provides negligible if any improvement. Basic UTP copper ethernet is now the preferred connection directly to it. Further, the gap in SQ between streaming Qobuz and the same files saved on the Extreme local drive is slim at best. I think it is the cutting edge of streaming digital and they are not done yet. I’m not biased lol
I too agree on the tradeoff on DACs in my experience. I was running say a $13k DAC with the Extreme and went to $30k. Feels strange to disclose figures, but that’s what they were. I am happy with the improvement but that tradeoff I feel to be in the tapering part of the curve.
|
Now your next move is going to cost you another 30k on top for the next dac...this has been my point here. |
Agree. I'm am done on DACs. |
Well someone took my advice. One down! Many more to go!
I feel like i have accomplished something good here! |
Jay, you're right. I forgot that the gold bullets in SR tone down the HF compared to silver. But mikes may still be the biggest factor, so you will want to make recordings with each mike to see. Adjust the volumes for each mike, because like speakers, they have different outputs or efficiencies. I don't know whether the mike preamp in the phone compensates for different mike voltage inputs. You have to make recordings and listen, sometimes a tedious process, but fun and worth the effort in my experience. This would make a great A/B for YT, along with your comments later. Nobody here knows the relative characteristics of the mikes, so it would be a completely unbiased exercise, even more unbiased compared to the dac shootout, because many people knew and read about DCS vs MSB. Again, I doubt whether this has ever been done on YT--another attraction for you. |
@jays_audio_lab
I agree with your comment that it is nice to have fun conversations. Just wish the one that can't help themselves would also contribute in the same way. No rebuke necessary.
And for those that can't seem to join in the fun, they can always change the channel. No one making them keep coming back. |
Pokey,
The Puritan Labs 156 is much superior to plugging into the wall. My system is dead silent with no drop in soundstage thru either 2 channel or 5.1 HT.
You live local to me.
One day you can drop by and take a listen.
Right now I'm looking for a new place so I'm pretty much only using my headphone system while I'm looking and kinda sorta semi packing stuff. |
Tha Rossini direct sounds quite good Jay.
If a few of us lived near you there would be steak barbecues and beer every couple weeks with late night sessions of music.
Viber would bring his favorite violin and scoff at at how lucky you all are to hear him play live for free. Ricevs would secretly try to put mods on your gear without you knowing. He would then ask you trick questions to see if you heard the difference. If you couldn't he would open up his very first Audiogon thread just to mock your hearing. Viber would then offer to teach you how to hear better. Kren would be pissed all night because Viber would eventually get too drunk to argue back with him. Kren would get even more pissed because all the chick's would think Viber must be some famous old dood who plays with Hanz Zimmer. Faxer would try to put food in his Hoodie pockets to take home and in between sessions secretly hand out flyers for his dealers next sale.
Good times.
Here's to blumartini and Almarq!
🍻🍻🍻
|
@chazzzy007
That is a very nice offer. I'll IM you tomorrow. |
Funny.
Nah, I’d probably be the drunkest one at the party, and eventually challenge WC to arm wrestling. He’d oblige and rather than destroy me just let me flounder for 10 minutes in agony before finally dropping the hammer. I’m ok with that because I’d correctly predicted no way WC beats me in under a minute.
Mr decibel would appear and contend he can’t learn anything from the way we party.
Riaa would make fun of those drinking cheaper beers, and talk about his stash of beers that he’ll drink one day.
Viber just wants to talk about the theory of home brewing, and halfway seems to know what he’s talking about, but on further questioning reveals he’s never made a batch.
Inna is pissed about WC’s TV, not big enough or vivid enough. And vandalizes all of WC’s Pass Labs gear.
Thezaks parties along but late in the evening calls in a noise complaint.
Ron and pokey and chazzy are like I can’t believe we hang out with all these weirdos, but at least we’re not like them.
The music is just an endless loop of Liberty, Man in the Moon, and Death Row, and nobody really thinks that’s strange.
There’s a hundred people we remember seeing before but can’t really place, and another thousand who we’ve never seen before.
|
Ok, the time has come to find out my impressions from inside the room and to finally know which presentation was which.
On this video i will go over 10 categories plus find out which dac i preferred!
The video is dropping today at 11am ET. |
chazzzy--100 dB funny, kren--82 dB, not bad |
|
Let the discussion begin! |
Good video WC. The "neither dac" line was pretty funny.
I think the Youtube limitations maybe constrain all of us on what we can hear in the videos (kinda goes without saying). For me, I think I focus most on tonality and dynamics in the videos, as I find them most important, plus clarity, and interestingly you gave all 3 of those wins to dcs. Well come to think of it maybe you didn’t have a "tonality" category but closest I’ll equate that to of that categories you did describe is your "mids" category, which you gave to dcs.
Most of the stuff that is less apparent via YT versus in the room was won by msb according to you.
Anyway, thanks much for the content |
WC,
Interesting results - shows that our listening on youtube is definitely different than what you are hearing in the room. Interesting that you mention the MSB to be warmer, yet folks feel the YT presentation showed the MSB to be brighter. I think this is why it's so important to get the video with your opinion of what's happening in the room.
Even though MSB won most of the categories, I will agree with Kren's previous prediction that the DCS is what will eventually remain.
Dave
|
Jay,
Thanks for your analysis. I had many of the same observations as you, although on my iMac, I can't evaluate soundstage and imaging. As far as bang for the buck, Bartok and Chord DAVE would make a good comparison. Someone here (I think 4425 a year or two ago) found the Bartok just about identical in sound to the Rossini. I know you had the DAVE a while ago. How would you compare DAVE to Rossini (I don't know if you had the Bartok) using your criteria?
Anyone else compared Chord DAVE to Bartok? Thanks to all. |
Both dacs will remain and 2 power amplifiers will leave instead. Dac is more important if i am going to keep moving through speakers in the future. It is harder for me to acquire these 2 dacs than it is to get a power amp. Each time a current DCS or MSB model is listed, it is sold quickly.
If i sold either one of these dacs and wanted to bring them back, it would cost me too much money.
This has been a great conversation with regards to DACs. If ANY OF YOU have a dac you want to send me and would like to compare to either one of these 2 dacs, you all know how to find me. I won’t be buying a cheap dac in order to start comparing again so before that comment is thrown in here, let me squash it.
You want your dac to go to battle against MSB OR DCS and see how it performs? then let’s make that happen for the whole world to see...
Many people talk about EMM, Esoteric, Soulution, and many other DACs i can't think of right now, i am open and willing to give them a fair shot in here.
|
I agree with you Dave. I heard #2 sounding warmer, richer and more refined than #1 as did most people that voted. Of course YouTube has limitations that restrict us from hearing soundstage and dynamics etc....I think the only thing we can really hear on these videos is tonality, and maybe not even that. Kind of makes me wonder about future videos and what is really being heard in the room....nothing like being there.
|
Well done Kren!
That was really good!
Lolz 😄😄😄 |
I think any brightness associated with the shootout was probably due to the silver bullets from synergistic Research. Yesterday i switched to gold bullets and it's sounding great |
WC, in video you said DCS sounded cooler than neutral and MSB sounded warmer than neutral.
Was that with the silver cable bullets?
Does DCS still sound cooler than neutral with the gold bullets, or straight up neutral? Does MSB sound warmer yet with gold than with the silver? |
Anyone else compared Chord DAVE to Bartok? Thanks to all.
I haven't listened to Dave, but I have had the Chord TT2 and previously the Chord Qutest. Now I have a Bartok. The differences between these two brands are stark. The chord sound is very sharp, fast, and for me it has the best soundstage of all the dacs I have heard. The problem with Chord is that it can sound a bit thin and clinical. Instead, the Bartok is a more natural sound, full, with more weight and impact. It sounds more "meat on the bone", but it doesn't have Chord's 3D soundstage, which is more realistic and deep. Without having heard the Rossini, I can say that the Bartok is one of the best purchases I have ever made. It has everything in one box and can be updated with an external clock. I hope it helps you.
|
Both have more musicality now and far less forwardness |
Jay, I hope you don't mind, but I'd like to give you some good advice on your journey. I'm not talking about setting fire or criticizing.
I am an acoustic engineer and the acoustic treatment you are doing with the Vicoustic panels is very insufficient given the high level of sound equipment it has and its astronomical economic power.
Take my advice and hire a good acoustic consultancy that has built many recording studios and rebuilds your listening room. It is the best investment you can make.
(English is not my mother tongue so I hope the translation is well understood.) |
Thanks for the advice. You never know what the future brings. |
Interesting shootout and results, Jay. I'd say the videos were harder to judge over the internet than in person when you stated your preferences in different sound areas. I know I didn't prefer the same cut on each dac for all 3 videos.
I upgraded to MSB Ref from Premier to come along with my new Fyne F1-12s. I'm curious how big the upgrade it will be. If not, my dealer will get a mouth full :) My justification was with high efficient speakers, the amp requirements open up a lot of lower priced alternatives so I could spend more on source.
|
Great speakers. Those are killer sounding pieces. I loved them when i heard them at Suncoast Audio. I almost bought them too! |
"I think the Youtube limitations maybe constrain all of us on what we can hear in the videos (kinda goes without saying)."
"WC,
Interesting results - shows that our listening on youtube is definitely different than what you are hearing in the room."
Kren and Zaks,
It’s not YouTube that’s the bottleneck in what you are hearing, it’s the system you both are listening on. That’s one of the reaons Jay keeps asking you all to listen on headphones as well.
Look at Viber’s comments.
He’s 96 3/4 years old and still heard what Jay did.
Go back and look at my notes on all 3 sessions. They were precisely the same as Jay’s.
But that's also the reason we are here. To learn how to optimize each of our systems. 🙂 |
Uh, I do listen on a good headphone system : )
Viber actually has a conundrum, because WC was clear that #2 had better clarity, Viber’s North Star, yet Viber chose #1, which WC also described as "warmer than neutral". I guess maybe because it had better high frequencies, per WC’s video comments - that could make sense I guess for his choice? I dunno, don’t want to speak for him. I also thought, as I commented on, that #2 had better clarity even throughout the blind tests. Not that either choice is wrong, of course, both great dacs |
Jay
Interesting that what you describe between both DAC's is what i heard via YT. What is interesting is that your YT videos are that good that i'am able to evaluate the DAC's to such a level.
Maybe i had an edge as i'm familiar with the Wilson speakers and MSB DAC and together they produce a sound that i enjoy and there was a familiarity and comfort to the sound. The sound must have been amazing in the room to feel and hear air turn into music.
I would like the Wilsons to stay for awhile we know the sound and it would benefit us in evaluating new electronics brought into the room, it would give us a baseline.
Great work! |
Thank you.
Some people will hear what i heard and some won't and that is because there SO MANY variables in the mix. It's difficult to always nail it with what i heard in my room. |
chazzzy007,
Like kren0006, I also used headphones. Be careful with turning assumptions into conclusions.
And, kren0006 made an interesting point that viber6 preferred #1, which had less clarity according to WC.
Dave
|
Less clarity and warmer than neutral is what WC said about #1. Though #1 did win 6 or 7 of the categories (can’t recall exactly how many dcs won, but to me personally (only my preferences, not saying those are absolute : ) those 3 or 4 were the most important so I felt good with what WC told us and my choice, especially given cost difference between dacs) |
kren0006,
You raised good points that I thought of also. Usually Jay and I have similar assessments of the objective qualities of any component, even from my primitive computer audio going against his ultimate in-room listening. I agree with his findings that dac 1 has more HF extension, articulation and spatiality, which are usually indications of greater clarity. So I was puzzled to hear him say that dac 2 has greater clarity. I think nearly everyone agrees that dac 2 has more body and richness of tone. These are characteristics of midrange enhancement. How to resolve this conundrum? I believe that the midrange is more dominant than HF for dac 2, whereas dac 1 gives more HF and less midrange. Since the midrange is the most important core of most music, that could be why Jay felt that dac 2 had the greater clarity. I like great midrange also, and many times I liked dac 2 for that. But chazzzy and I felt that dac 1 had more subtlety and nuance, at the slight sacrifice of tonal richness. Dac 2 definitely has more comfort factor, which is the beauty of its midrange.
My decades of experience with many components is that if something new has more HF than my reference, the midrange may be sacrificed and thinner on the new, so at first the reference is more comfortable and still seems right and better. Then I find that as I get used to the new, I hear more HF of course, but the midrange and bass are both focused better with greater clarity. Then when I go back to the reference, I don't like it as much anymore, as it is veiled by comparison to the new.
Both dac 1 and 2 each have something to offer, and I wrote several times that I had trouble distinguishing them. They are very close in quality, as you say.
Since you preferred dac 2, Rossini, and 4425 said that the Bartok is nearly identically sounding to the Rossini, then the Bartok would be a great purchase for you. As for me, I would go for the Chord TT2 which opm says "The chord sound is very sharp, fast, and for me it has the best soundstage of all the dacs I have heard." But who knows, if you can audition both the Chord TT2 and Bartok together at home, you might like the character of the Chord. It is much cheaper than Bartok. |
Yeah that’s what I’m thinking Bartok could be a good match for me, especially if I get Wilson speakers. I didn’t know Wilson voiced with dCS, which WC mentioned, so that was new info to me.
We’ll see. Still a lot of money and would for sure want to hear in person and in some comparisons in person |
If you like DCS after hearing it next to the msb, you should purchase a dcs. There is no need for you to get out there and listen to others. You’re a DCS guy which pretty much makes you a Wilson guy too. If you’re going with Wilson, go for DCS. There’s no point in hearing more dacs unless you want to spend big dough then venture into MSB. |
opm,
Thanks so much for your comparison of Chord and Bartok. I found a review that found the Chord TT2 was more precise than the Bartok. Another review was by a professional violinist who thought the Bartok was more resolved than the Chord DAVE. Perhaps the TT2 has a sharper, faster sound than the DAVE. Just because the more expensive flagship is SUPPOSED to be better, the tonal qualities of the cheaper may appeal to someone better. This is a great lesson in the fact that every product is unique, and careful auditioning is needed by the buyer. An honest dealer is an asset, who has the experience to know the attributes of each product, and is not just a salesman who says the expensive item is better. Sometimes, not always. "Better" means different things to each listener, depending on his preferences. |
Haha. When I purchased my last set of speakers, I did detailed auditions (we’re talking 30 minutes to an hour each, sometimes several hours across several amps, sometimes over 2-3 sittings) of 20-25 speakers all around my budget. But I keep my stuff a long time. Maybe that’s why what you do is so fascinating to me - I couldn’t just buy on impulse like you do.
But you’re probably right. That’s most likely where I’d end up. |
Great video WC. I liked the descriptions you provided for all 10 categories.
Heart out to all those affected by today’s tragedy in Miami |
kren,
I don't know what speakers you currently have, but if they are on the rich and warm side, and you warm the sound with Pass/Luxman type electronics, you might like the Chord TT2 better than Bartok. With the HF emphasis of the XLF, even with gold bullets in the SR cable, it is clear that the Bartok would be your choice. For the Wilson models in your price range, who knows? Careful matching is key. As Jay says, you can play it safe with Bartok and Wilson. But then the sound might warm up more than you anticipate, and you might want to get less warm amps than Pass/Luxman. I wonder what amps Wilson uses for reference?
The synergy journey is endless, because changing one component alters the synergy, which means you have to redo the whole system. My approach is actually much simpler--I go for detail/clarity in every component on the long march towards the pure transparency of live, unamped music. |
@viber6
"This is a great lesson in the fact that every product is unique, and careful auditioning is needed by the buyer. An honest dealer is an asset, who has the experience to know the attributes of each product, and is not just a salesman who says the expensive item is better. Sometimes, not always. "Better" means different things to each listener, depending on his preferences." Yes, I totally agree. |
@kren0006
"When I purchased my last set of speakers, I did detailed auditions (we’re talking 30 minutes to an hour each, sometimes several hours across several amps, sometimes over 2-3 sittings) of 20-25 speakers all around my budget. But I keep my stuff a long time." I did much the same with my new(er) system and it paid dividends - bravo to you for taking your time. I plan for the amp/preamp-dac/speakers I purchased to be with me at the end. The source will probably change, but the Evolution system I purchased works so well for MY needs. I had five years of search and I still love to listen each day, for as many hours as I'm given. |
chazzzy,
I hope I make it to 96 3/4 years of age with good enough hearing. My mother past 70 claimed she "hears perfectly" but when I measured her hearing with the Audio CD (fantastic tool, get it) she was good to only 7 kHz. Since the highest note on the piano has a fundamental of 4 kHz, she had useful enough hearing to enjoy music. My dad's left ear at the time was deaf above 2 kHz, and he noted much less musical enjoyment. That was from riding to work with the windows open on the highway, I believe. Be careful with your drums, etc.
Awards to you for being correct about the identities of dac 1 and 2, and all your observations. Your experience with the Bartok was helpful to me, thanks. |
