"159 voted so far and 69% are leaning towards demonstration 2. Is the entire world correct for choosing #1 or is the minority of 31% correct?"
WC, did you mean to say "...for choosing #2..."? I think there will not be any "correct" at the end of the day, because "correct" for each person is based upon their preferences. I think that, if anything, it shows which presentation the majority of the folks lean towards, and which presentation is in the minority.
Dave
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70% choosing one of these two is a surprisingly (to me) large majority |
jays_audio_lab OP4,135 posts06-18-2021 6:16amNow it’s a matter of knowing which is which... Heads might roll on the floor once you find out 😂 Yup. People tend to assume that MSB is known for an organic but softer possibly less detailed presentation of music and that DAC #2 is MSB. MSB is actually DAC #1 and dCS is DAC #2 |
Let's wait and see... The next video will include vocals... Tomorrow at 10am ET. Then the final video will come Monday at the same time. |
Listened again.
Bass is muddy in demo #1, song 1. Marimba or vibraphone in song 2 is muddy/jumbled with demo #1, clean and clear with demo #2.
Demo #2 sounds like I’m sitting right in the middle of the performance.
Demo #1 sounds like the performance is playing around the corner in another room, through an open door.
I’ll take demo #2, final answer, as to first video.
I'll predict that demo #1 is msb; demo #2 is dcs. |
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Short excerpts--8:50 on demo 1, 17:50 on demo 2. Small differences, took me several times back and forth to realize. Again, I hear demo 2 as more dynamic, demo 1 compressed by comparison. The greater focus and snap I hear on demo 1 may be an artifact caused by compression. This raises the issue of whether we are hearing just the different conversion technologies, or superimposed internal Rossini/MSB preamp stages. Since I prefer direct without any added preamp stages, I suggest that after this exercise is done, it would be nice to A/B just the dac's direct, using a transparent passive preamp, to really tell what's what. Since Jay doesn't have a passive preamp (mrdecibel, we need to use your Luminous passive preamp, lol), an alternate plan would be to use the fixed outputs of both Rossini and MSB, if they are available, feeding the same outboard preamp stage (Pandora or whatever).
Another wild guess--the slight compression of demo 1 is from the cheaper Rossini electronics; the more expensive electronics of the MSB gives greater dynamics in demo 2. Kinda ridiculous to call the Rossini a cheap, budget component with compromises. They are both expensive, and should have any problems solved. I remember Jay said that the Rossini was audibly inferior to the Vivaldi. Maybe the Vivaldi has superior gain stage electronics. A fairer matchup might have been Vivaldi and MSB, but I am still thankful for all the effort Jay has done, since nobody is funding his great R & D. |
I don’t think anyone really knows which video is which for sure.
I have deduced that WC prefers dcs to msb by stuff he has said on videos or written.
And usually our tastes are similar, so since I find #2 so much better than #1, it leads me to think #2 may be dcs.
All that said, if #2 is msb that won’t bother me at all. I’ll simply be happy to know which I prefer.
I’m actually kinda hoping #2 is msb because the msb discrete dac is less expensive than dcs Bartok.
On other hand if msb reference beats the much less expensive Rossini maybe that doesn’t tell me as much as if Rossini beats Bartok (which would be a more definitive statement on preferred house sound given the big msrp difference) - ie if Rossini at half price beats reference that’s a safer leap for me to assume I’ll prefer Bartok to discrete. Will try to compare them directly of course, but this great starting point |
kren0006,
Did you A/B Rossini vs Bartok? You seem to want the Bartok--what does it sound like? |
No I haven’t heard either, or the msb discrete. But they’re (discrete and Bartok) in the price range I’ll be looking down the road and are probably the two manufacturers I’m most interested in. That’s why I’m so keen about this shootout.
I’ve heard both brands have a house sound that transcends the models, so even tho this shootout has neither of the exact dacs in my range, still incredibly useful and probably the most relevant heas2head I’ll be able to hear. Rossini is above where I’d want to spend for this system.
Realistically it will be very difficult for me to compare dcs to msb in my system or even at a dealer bc none near me and dunno if there even are any dealers that sell both brands. Probably there are but I haven’t seen who that might be
Edit: in my post above I said “if Rossini beats Bartok” but I meant “if Rossini beats msb reference” (for me in WC’s shootout) |
I am embarrassed to state this publicly, but I could not find where I am supposed to cast my vote for the DAC I preferred. Consequently, let me say here that I definitely preferred #2 over #1. That said, now let me rile some feathers by stating that, for me, this experience was similar to when I heard the Wilson Alexx V vs the Sonus Faber Aria II. The Aria II affected me (in a most positive sense) in a way that the Alexx V could not. |
In what way ? What did the aida 2 do that the alexx v didn't ? |
I am going to depart from my colleague Viper on Dac #1. He seems to have been swayed by the masses and joined the Dac #2 crowd.
On the guitar piece I hear more air around each instrument and voice. Now that could be due to an inferiror clock leading to less information and detail which gives the appearance of a deeper soundstage. I don’t think that’s the case though because I also hear more subtle detail and separation thru Dac #1. During simultaneous parts voice and guitar remain distinct and clear. On Dac #2 during the same section there’s a slight blurring or muffled’ness when voice and guitar play their parts simultaneously. There is much less separation and air around each player in the musical piece as interpreted by Dac #2 as well as less detail.
Once again to my ears Dac #1 is a very clear winner in a different section of the video.
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In the recording industry Demo 2 DAC i believe would be called a little dirty a trait sought after for rock to hard rock. This is not a bad thing.
Each DAC with a cable change could have a different personality from what we hear in the videos. Demo 2 could sound like Demo 1 with a cable change and vice versa. With DAC's at these performance levels it's so important that each component is matched to another component to get the desired results one desires.
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chazzzy,
No, I am still with you about demo 1 being best for me, for its clarity, detail, focus. I merely speculated that the greater bloom and dynamics of demo 2 could also be rephrased by saying demo 1 is a little compressed by comparison. In other areas of audio, I have seen lots of compression in later releases of old Columbia LP's. Bass and dynamics are compressed mainly, so HF are more dominant. The body of trumpets is reduced, making the trumpets "spit" more on those compressed LP's. These are gross effects, and the compression I hear in demo 1 is MUCH less, very subtle.
To briefly digress a little, another example is classic tube sound vs solid state. A low powered tube amp often has explosive dynamics and fullness, whereby a SS amp sounds pinched by comparison. I never understood why this is the case, which many people note. Possibly the increased dynamics and fullness of tubes and tubelike SS amps is a manifestation of a particular type of distortion. Often, rolled off HF enables toleration of higher SPL's to give the appearance of greater dynamics. Today's great SS amps are not compressed, or maybe they still are by comparison to great tube amps. Whatever the reasons, I still prefer the clarity, detail of SS amps, but I am honestly bothered by the dichotomy. Very dynamic amps seem to sacrifice delicacy of detail.
I liken demo 2 to a very slightly more dynamic component which sacrifices a little delicacy of detail. It took several hearings for me to conclude this. As Jay said, this shootout is quite challenging. |
rh67,
I agree that since the differences between demo 1 and 2 are small, a change of cables could make demo 2 sound like demo 1 and reverse our preferences. I think Jay is utilizing our comments to help him decide which dac to keep, only because he needs to be prudent, financially. Before he sells one of them, he should experiment with different cables, if he hasn't done so already. |
jmeyers,
Even though we have different preferences, I find your comments objectively accurate, truthful and useful. Although I have never heard the Alexx V or SF speakers, from what I have read, SF has a warm personality and Wilson goes for clarity/detail. Likewise, I hear demo 2 as analogous to SF, and demo 1 as analogous to Alexx, but with much smaller differences than the two speakers.
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I played Private Investigations from the YT VEVO video through my MSB DAC to try and get a point of reference. Based on what I heard, DAC #2 seemed to line up more with how my DAC sounded (many generations older than Jay's DAC). I thought both DAC's sounded pretty good, but I felt DAC #2 had more Tonal Density, and better definition on the outer edges of the Soundstage. |
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First time I ever actually listened with decent headphones and my Audioengine D1 Dac/headphone amp. Personally, when D2 started I really liked the sound of the solo drums better, but once the music started I found D2 to sound generally more steely on the vocals and background instruments. So my preference would be D1 in this particular system. |
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I'll take what's behind DAC door #2 again.
Might just be me, but I feel like I'm hearing a sight imbalance towards the right channel with DAC #1 on both videos. |
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With this video Demo 2 is the one for me that sounds more real and clean.
First video Demo 1 this video Demo 2. |
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I posted a separate poll for video 2. Please vote now ! |
Video 2 is more difficult for me to decide. This AM I listened on my work PC laptop which has a more tinny, bass deficient sound than my home iMac desktop. I just listened to the iMac. For the male voice, I listened at 5:26 and 12:39 for demo 1 and 2, respectively. For the female voice, 1:29 and 9:23. Both voices are on the husky, dark side compared to many other male/female voices.
With the lighter PC sound, again I felt that demo 1 was more focused and lean than demo 2. I agree with golfnutz's description that demo 2 has more tonal density, which many reviewers would alternately describe as having more saturated colors, and I describe as warmer.
But on my bassier iMac, I had more trouble telling differences. The female I could tell had the same relative difference between demo 1 and 2 as on the PC, but after many back and forth trials, I could barely hear a difference on the male voice. Blinded, I would probably give up in being able to hear a difference on the male voice using the iMac.
This confirms how I find it much easier to discern HF differences between components than lower freq. On video 1, the abundant HF content of the music let me more easily zero in on the differences.
Jay, if I can't get the system to register my vote, put me down for demo 1 again for video 2. |
Jonathan Valin prefers the Soulution DAC over the MSB Reference.....and just the other day a person posted on What's Best that he had both in his house at the same time and preferred the Soulution.
"All I can say is in the context of my system the 760 was much better overall ( better dynamics, better resolution, similar tonality…fuller sound overall). The difference was bigger with lower volumes and I dont use a dedicated preamp, so maybe the output stage explains some part, but even at higher volumes the soulution was better."
Of course, using a $30K+ preamp plus another $5K cable in the chain might turn the tide.....and maybe not.
It never ends......why spend so much money on something that will be outdated soon? I wonder how good the $3300 Musetec DAC is compared to the $72K Soulution.....hmmmmmm. |
ricevs,
Thanks for this info. Do you have a link to Valin's review of it?
BTW, I ordered the Rouge Audio Studio N-10DM and will keep you posted on that. |
Viber,
Very glad to hear you are still trusting your ears.
They are quite experienced. 🍻🍻🍻
Jay,
Great choice of music here on video 2. 👍 |
His review is in the magazine only at this point.....not posted to the Absolute Sound website.....maybe later. Get someone to read it to you.....you know, a bedtime story. |
And you believe what Valin says? Oh the stories! |
chazzzy,
As a drummer, you are more familiar with lower freq sounds than I. Do you also play HF percussion--cymbals, triangles? How about midrange instruments like wood block, vibraphone? You probably favor tight skins on your drums which obviously create tighter, less distorted sound. My former orchestra on a tight budget had an old deep bass drum that was boomy and loosy-doosy. My overall impression of demo 2 is akin to very slightly loose skin, which creates more quantitative dynamics but less tightness and accuracy. Let's see what you find on video 2.
On my violin, I am more middle of the road with my shorter bridge. A tall bridge creates too much tightness and tension in the strings, which requires more pressure from both hands to get a free, natural sound. |
I've gone back and forth a number of times on just song 1. (No song 2 at all) Once again to my ears these are very different presentations. I've listened to each DAC maybe 7 or 8 times in different sections of the Hanne Boel music. My brain now hurts. 😄😄😄
I will have to return to Jay's channel for more listening later today.
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I wanted to respond to Jay’s question regarding my preference of the Aida II over the Alexx V -- recognizing it is a digression from the thrust of this thread currently. While I am somewhat of an audiophile and do actually get a kick (from time to time) listening to how equipment impacts the sound rather than listening to the music, I primarily listen for personal enjoyment. There are three selections I typically choose to "test" a system: Peggy Lee’s "Is That All There Is", Ludovico Einaudi’s "Life" (from his album "In a Time Lapse"), and Led Zepplin’s "Dazed and Confused". Each was streamed from Tidal. The other equipment was generally [for Aida II] Audio Research preamp and power amps; DCS stack; cabling unknow, but obviously high quality and [for Alexx V] Spectral for preamp and power amps; DCS stack; Transparent Audio cabling.
I listened to the Alexx V recently at a high-end audio store. The sound which I heard was a perfect rendition, with extraordinary definition. I marveled at the clarity. My thought was that, if one wanted to perform an autopsy on a performance, this was the speaker (and associated electronics) to utilize. I heard the Aida II at the most recent AXPONA. Dazed and Confused was the last track played. I can say without hesitation, that song/music/performance was the greatest audio experience of my life. Led Zepplin was there, live, and playing their hearts out -- just for me. When the last note played, I was standing there silent and then just exclaimed "Holy crap!!"
Now how could it be ever better than that? |
Great questions Viber. 👍
As a musician I am listening for many of the same things you are. With live music there are certain subtle harmonics and overtones that when reproduced properly give music life. Spatial ques and the like also help bring you "there". (One also has to have a system capable of reproducing those queues harmonics and overtones as well and that is part of our audiophile journey) Those properties jumped out at me right away on DAC 1 in video 1.
As a drummer I like a healthy a middle ground between tight and loose skins. There’s a sense of power you get thru those deep overtones that give a solid foundation to build the rest of the music on. You can engineer some of that back once you edit the tracks but it’s not the same.
Bonzo did it so right back in the early days of Zeppelin. His drumming has such a great feel of raw power and yet he is also amazingly elegant in many of the things he does. There have been many outstanding drummers thru the decades but John Bonham is still the GOAT and IMO it’s not even close. |
I don't believe much of what anyone says......he he. However, there is also a third person on the Whats Best that preferred the Soulution over the MSB......a trend?
What I would like is an A/B with the Select, Vivaldi, all out Ares Cerat, all out tweaked Lampy, monster TotalDAC, Soulution, Wadax Reference and whatever else is the "best". Then I would like to see the best of the best A/Bed with the lesser Gods like the Musetec, etc. to see how much most of us could buy. I mean, how many people buy those top tiered DACs? Jay, will you do this for me? The Wadax is a mere pocket change $145K. Robert Harley thinks its the cat's meow. |
I’m not buying that stupidity.
I told a friend of mine behind closed doors that we are at the mercy of the streaming services. How can you ask a DAC to make you vodka or tequila if all you’re putting in it are grapes? It can’t...all it can do is make you wine that might be a little bitter or sweeter depending on the grapes but it’s STILL WINE.
The law of diminishing returns is huge with DACs probably even more than other components.
Don't go out spending a zillion dollars on DACs. I own two of the best dacs so my opinion has a ton of weight.
Find something balanced for your system and don't look back. Switching dacs is as stupid as trading in your car in each year for the same model over and over. Dumb move. |
My 10 yr. old Lampazator DAC still to me sounds as good as anything i have heard in the 3-10k price range. Every year i try the so called latest and greatest within the price range given and not one DAC has sounded better.
I can afford to pay more than 10k but honestly can not justify paying more than 10k for a DAC. |
Don't blame ya.
It is also very system dependent. The more revealing a system, the more you gotta step up your source. However, there is a cap that we reach if we are mainly streaming. That's what I want for people to keep in mind. |
This was close. To help with the comparison I downloaded song 1 on Qobuz to get a baseline reference. I also favorited Hanne Boel and saved her albums. Wonderful choice Jay or whoever recommended this song and artist. Well done!
My initial instincts after a number of a/b back and forth comparions is to check the box for DAC #2. In my mind this was fairly clear. The luscious tonality, coupled with a vivid, and bold presentation would win the day for DAC #2. As I was preparing to cast my vote I went back to listen to DAC #1 one final time… and decided to hold off. I pondered things and then thought about calling this song a draw. There are just too many things both DACs do well. So I went in for one final listen to both DACs.
The baseline Qobuz download was just too similar in many respects to DAC #2. On the original there is a thumping deep bass in the drums, as well as a very forward guitar ‘singing’ alongside Hanne Boel in ‘duo like’ manner. DAC #2 captures this in a manner superior to DAC #1 So once again I was ready to click the box for DAC #2 but before I cast my vote for DAC#2 I went to listen to DAC #1 once more to record some notes of it’s admirable performance. A loss albeit a close one to DAC #2.
To my ears the presentation for DAC #1 is just a bit more laid back. The drums and guitar that are quite forward and bold on DAC #2’s presentation are more recessed here. DAC #1 is different than the reference Qobuz presentation I hear thru my headphones as well. DAC #1 simply does not capture the guitar and bold deep bass of the drums like DAC #2. What is also different though are the the subtle guitar harmonics and decay I hear. How they gracefully linger and then subtly fade. Such beautifully presented music. That little ‘something’ that catches your attention as you hear something previously unnoticed is here. As I continue to listen, the drums though not as bold, also have a slight resonance as their overtones hang in the air for a moment or 2 before decaying. To my ears the air around each instrument as well as the vocals are also superior to DAC #2. When comparing this to DAC #2’s rich, vivid, bold sound I understand what made me want to vote for DAC #2. However to my ears that ever so slight ethereal quality just seems to be missing. That little something that takes a piece over the top into SOTA. At any level I think what we all look for is that missing 3-5% in performance that takes us to the next level and that’s when I decided to cast my vote for DAC #1 once again.
To my ears DAC #1 simply does the little things we want a top notch piece of gear in a system to do. Song #2 was a close but definitive victory for DAC #1. To my ears there is just that extra bit of air, decay, separation and because of these things an elegance and delicacy in it’s presentation that carries the day once again for DAC #1. And this in spite of DAC #2’s pleasing performance in other areas.
In closing this I wonder how the presentation of both DACs would change for the better with a more upscale amplifier? The Essence is good but not anywhere near the best in the Gryphon family. Therefore I will be petitioning Jay for a rematch thru the Evo Antileon once the dust and discussion on this shootout clears over the course of the next few weeks. Would either or both of these DACs performance better in the areas they are lacking?
Halfway thru the shootout the Scoreboard reads
DAC #1 1.5 points – DAC #2 0 points
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chazzzy,
Your changing preferences parallel my experience on this A/B project. This is a difficult exercise. There is a large price difference and we all want to make sure we come to reliable conclusions. Yet the differences between dac's are surprisingly small. That's why we are having trouble deciding and voting.
I have felt for decades that digital component differences are much smaller than analog component differences. Phono cartridges are transducers like speakers, and their differences are as great as speakers. Digital technology is more sophisticated, and even budget CD players are excellent whereas budget MM cartridges are really bad compared to MC cartridges.
On balance, we seem to agree that demo 2 has a richer, bolder, more dynamic sound compared to demo 1. If you evaluate drums with their predominantly dynamic bass tonality, demo 2 is definitely more true to life. But for upper midrange/HF instruments, or in the drum case, the subtle brushes and taps of the snare drum or cymbals where HF are important, I feel that demo 1 is slightly more accurate and lifelike. In a large space, spatiality is fully revealed with more HF presence, which I believe is more accurately done with demo 1.
Guitars and pianos can be confusing to evaluate. In a small room, they sound big and more bass dominant, so if someone likes the sound of those instruments in a small room, then demo 2 would be preferable. But in a larger space, these instruments are more HF dominant and show their sparkle and brilliance, so demo 1 would be preferable.
For me, demo 1 is still my choice.
Regarding better amps, I did post that in the comparative videos, the Antileon is more accurate and lean than the Essence stereo. I suggested to Jay that the Antileon would be better for this A/B than the Essence, but I guess he was already deep into the preparations so he stuck with the Essence. I also think that eliminating the Pandora would produce even greater clarity, so using each dac direct would show the demo 1 and 2 differences even better. Each dac has its own volume control and preamp stage, so SPL's can be matched that way. I don't see the value of superimposing two preamp stages with the added veiling. For those who like the extra dynamics from preamp stages, the XLF is efficient and dynamic enough so extra preamp stages shouldn't be needed. |
Jay,
Another issue to discuss which you mentioned is fatigue. I see your point that a less revealing component lets you listen longer without fatigue. But in my case, if I hear dull/veiled sound, I don't want to listen for any time at all. If my power quality is poor, the sound is so veiled that I turn the system off after a few seconds, and just go on to non audio activities. But when the system is exciting with great detail and revelation of the music, I am happy with just 20 min of listening. Also, I have observed that extended listening gets you used to the sound, so exciting things initially have less excitement later. This is true of live music as well. Even with everyday experiences, when you first open the door and go outside, the first breath of fresh air and sunlight create the most impact.
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When it comes to the Antileon Evo, you will get a ton more fullness and bottom end but remember the antileon is a darker sound. This is what made the antileon one of the most sought out power amps: it is more forgiving than other Gryphon amps. Do we want forgiving?
Some say the Antileon Evo might be the best amp that Gryphon has ever made but that is for each person to decide.
Currently, I’m listening to the constellation centaur monos with great results but they don’t slam or hit the bottom octaves like Gryphon. Actually, no amp that i have owned has deeper bass than Gryphon - period.
Constellation has this way of gluing you to the chair but if you value massive dynamics then it’s not for you.
I also can not try the Antileon Evo with my system because i don’t have two dragon powercords for it and i don’t think it’s fair to use hurricane powercords on it because they are not at the level of the dragon which is what I’m using with the Essence (antileon needs two 15a and essence needs one 20a)
In short, if i wanted to do the same exercise with the antileon, I’d need to buy two dragon powercords with Msrp of $9800 each. Pretty crazy eh?
I can tell you that the entire point of this shootout is to see what each DAC does with constant variables.
Imagine if i had to buy MORE powercords or line conditioners just to make one dac get close to the other one? I mean, WHAT do we say to the person that is saving their money to buy the msb or DCs? Do we tell them that their DAC sounds just ok because they are using stock powercords?
I’m not exactly content if i buy a component that costs a lot of money and then i also need to spend tons of money on cables or else it sounds like garbage?
That’s unacceptable in my book.
Let's say i bought the 100k msb select dac and i took it home and then i find out that the msb reference beats it because I'm using 2 ultra high end PCs on the msb reference? I'd be pretty damn pissed off. You mean to tell me now i gotta spend $20k on top of the $100k just to best the cheaper reference with upgraded powercords?
That SHOULD NEVER BE THE CASE!
That said, I've seen it and heard it in my room how some cheaper models outperform the more expensive siblings by adding upgraded powercords.
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Well I agree that video 2 is more difficult to differentiate between the presentations than was video 1, but I still prefer demo #2 on video 2 as being better than demo #1, but by a much smaller margin than I did with video 1. |
@jays_audio_lab Jay, remember that in this hobby a large increase in amount spent does not equate to an equal ratio of SQ return. Therefore, if one has to add a power cord to a piece and said power cord is about a third or more of the price of the electronics, that will in no way guarantee that the electronics will increase in SQ by over 30%! In most cases (maybe all) a increase in cost by as much as 90+% will buy one an increase in SQ by maybe 10-15%! Seems like this ratio holds throughout the pricing structure of this hobby..for whatever reason?
I do realize that folks aren't necessarily willing to accept that fact! But there you have it. |
Jay,
I defer to your experience that Antileon has a darker bassier sound than Essence. My only basis for comparison was your casual video of the Antileon with the phone mike. I couldn't evaluate the bass, but did hear more focus in midrange/HF with the Antileon.
Right now with these A/B's, demo 1 and 2 are so close that with cable swapping, preferences could change.
The stereo Mephisto was the best Gryphon amp you had. It was nice that it only needed one power cord. Try the stereo Boulder 1161 against the stereo Essence at similar modest prices. The 1161 offers a decent amount of power and might be best bang for the buck.
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We are voting on the DAC that compliments the XLF's, Gryphon electronics, SR cables and Jay's room. DAC #2 sounds more refined while remaining highly detailed. The XLF's (to my ears) have an extremely detailed, slightly forward and tilted up tonal balance. DAC #2 takes that slight edginess away from the presentation and to me is more musical. Two videos and two #2 votes for me.
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@viber:
Gryphon mephisto also needs 2 powercords.
@ron17:
yep - the entire shootout is simply to let people hear how both dacs sound with the rest of the supporting cast. Of course, if i had different speakers or cabling then maybe things would be different. |
I agree Ron.
What I’m hearing is that DAC #1 seems slightly rolled off compared to DAC #2, especially on some of those cymbal splashes on the 2nd song in Video #1. DAC #1 seems like it has a lighter presence (some use Airy as a description). I like DAC #2 for the tonal density (less airy). As well, I believe DAC #2 has more detail. |
