Twoleftears- I agree if a system can reproduce a large orchestra accurately it will be an amazing system. It really is the ultimate test for a great audio setup. If it can do that right everything else if a piece of cake.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
Carey1110, Jay, Yes, I love Quad 57's. I gave that short violin piece to illustrate the beauty of the melodies. and this particular violinist's artistry. Many musicians have devoted themselves to other instruments whose sounds they like. There are great artists on all instruments, and great singers. We need diversity so all the great musicians on different instruments can create many combinations to make things interesting. Often the beauty of music which is written for string instruments is rearranged for other groups of instruments, because these other instrumentalists want to express the music on the instruments they play. Composers of orchestral music usually sketch their ideas on the piano first, and we often have both versions to listen to and admire. We learn more about the music by having both versions. Also, the fundamentals of melody, harmony and rhythm (timing) apply to all genres of music. I enjoy the voices of pop singers as well as operatic singers. Classical is a difficult language to adopt because of its complexity. But often multilingual people develop more appreciation of each language they know, so it is worthwhile to give patience to classical and learn at your own pace. At shows, classical is played as well as pop, rock, jazz. The presenters of classical may not know that much about classical, but they know enough to appreciate what it offers. Classical listeners can appreciate what a product does for their music, just as listeners to other music do the same. |
twoleftears, I agree that a full symphony orchestra represents the greatest challenge to any audio system. The minimonitor small speaker may be more accurate and satisfying for small scale music like chamber music and solo or duo groups, but only a large system can possibly hope to do justice to big scale music like symphonies. There is the Mahler 8th symphony which calls for 1000 performers. Did you ever hear that live, and did you ever hear an audio system that comes close to that? I doubt it. The ideal solution is 2 systems. A small scale one for chamber music and other small groups in a small/medium sized room, and a large system in a large room for the big stuff. You need a large home with 2 dedicated rooms. I have struggled with these issues for a long time. I loved my 1st serious speaker, the Maggie Tympani 1D for its huge wall of sound for big orchestral pieces. But then I got the little Rogers LS3/5a for its more intimate sound for smaller pieces. I never had 2 dedicated rooms, so I had to make a choice. My current Audiostatic electrostatic is a happy medium between these 2 extremes. It has 2 panels which make it more suited to large scale music, but I only use 1 panel which gives me more focus for the smaller scale music I mostly listen to. |
When someone has to throw 40k $ on a Gryphon Pandora preamplifier to get his system to sound right, there is a problem with the system to begin with. Think about it... FIRST, it means that someone really don’t like the sound of his dac. In this case, the super high msrp dCS Rossini should include a complete and satisfactory preamp section in it. It’s not rocket science, it’s only analog preamp section science. Someone really doesn’t need a separate preamp to make the dac sound right...to get more dynamics, sweeter tone, bigger soundstage, etc... In 2020, at these prices, you should get all that from your ultra high end dac or preamplifier with dac module included... SECOND, it means your amplifier is a very difficult diva to work with. In this case, the super duper Mephisto... The biggest challenge amp WC has encountered. ( yeah sure ) A real jem ? No it ain’t. It really shouldn’t be like that. It ´s just wrong to think the higher you get the more difficult it should be to set up things. This is plainly old thinking. In 2020, someone can have it all in a one box solution ! Again, it’s only audio circuits and some fancy casings craftsmanship... Sure it is far more profitable for brands to sell separate products, add to that selling fancy footers, interconnects and power cables... |
Maybe, but the more likely possibility is that the system is already satisfying but Jay just wants to make it even better. Many perfectionists keep striving to be even better. This is the noble human condition, and is actually a good thing, as perfectionists are humble enough to want to do better. If you heard student musicians at top conservatories, you would think that their playing is perfect already, so why are they wasting money and time on further education? The reason is that it could always be better. Competition is so keen that they must always strive to do better. |
pandora preamp is important to extract the best performance out of mephisto. although it sucks and it's the bane of this industry that for impedance matching, input switching and volume control one has to spend 40k. gryphon is in the best position to understand the impedance, load, characteristics curve of the power amplifier.so kind of the secret sauce and hence the premium being extracted out of the same. of course gryphon alone cannot be blamed and everyone does it. also from a mindset and psychological perspective the buyer who gets gryphon mephisto, even if gryphon sells a cheaper preamp , the buyer will be second guessing himself considering the chain of high end components in their system. |
rsf507, I also heard the Christine sounding clean, but it is hard to compare on computer audio. Getting a used Christine for $6K is very worthwhile. You still might want to try a new Benchmark LA 4 preamp for $3K on a no risk 30 or 60 day trial. goodsource, Any preamp whose output impedance is less than 10% of the input impedance of the power amp should work well. Even if Jay likes the combo of Pandora + Mephisto, another listener might prefer Christine + Mephisto, and so on. |
Techno, have no idea why you think the Mephisto didn’t sound good with the Christine, but I think most of us thought it sounded fantastic. But there’s always better. Most people buy a car and just drive it, while some buy many aftermarket upgrades to tweak and make it even better. That dosnt mean the base car wasn’t a good car to begin with, but most are built to meet a price point, even high end cars. There are custom car shops all over for this reason. Your fine with your base car, while others want to wring out every ounce of performance they can. They’re not wrong for that. Also check out what a simple maintenance is on a Ferrari Enzo. Does that cost make it wrong or bad? And Ferrrai offered factory upgrades when it was new. Does that mean it was bad as delivered? We seem to keep having this same basic convo, and if you don’t get these concepts, then you don’t understand what the whole thread is about. There are products that are more forgiving of the source and accompanying components, ie mask the flaws in such equipment. The Luxman is one of those products, and therefore can match well with more preamps, days, speakers, etc. Your comment is like saying a Formula One car is no good because it’s twitchy, hypersensitive to input, dosnt have a smooth ride on pothole filled roads, in the hands of the normal driver. In the right hands, which the right conditions, it will reward a gifted driver with unreal performance, but neglect it in any way, wrong tires, wrong pressure, incorrect suspension setup for the track, and it will become an uncontrollable diva. If you want something you can just get in, turn the key, be comfortable in most any environment and be a good value, get a Toyota Camry. Expecting a formula one car to be practical is unreasonable. |
@speedbump: I’m shocked how well you articulated that. I couldn’t have done it better. IF anyone does not UNDERSTAND the analogy you just presented, it leads me to believe that they simply should not be following this thread altogether because every intelligent conversation will go right above their head. They won’t understand it EVER EVER. I hope with the explanation you have given above that many understand more of what I’m trying to do. THANK YOU for this explanation. I am speechless at how you nailed it. |
Sorry guys, but a Gryphon Pandora preamplifier is no Ferrari... You get the whole thing that car...results and raw rare handling... Not with a preamplifier. It’s audio circuits and a fancy casing. Any respectable brand can achieve the same results in an ultra well made dac... Wake up, it’s an illusion the industry is playing everybody. |
speedbump6, I think your Ferrari and Formula One analogies are reasonable, but up to a point. Cars are cars, but music is music. Although I have never really heard the Mephisto, from Jay's comments and our hearing of it on his videos, I estimate that the M and my 2.5B SST2 have similar characteristics. I have tried various interconnects, power cords, various digital and analog sources with the Bryston as well as more euphonic amps. No matter what ancillary components I have used, the Bryston is always more enjoyable to me than the euphonic amps. I seek maximum clarity with information retrieval, and the Bryston gives me that. However, someone else who goes for mixing and matching of flavors may say that the Bryston would be more difficult to work with. Amp differences are much greater than cable differences, so the euphonic mixing and matching people would hate the Bryston and would never be able to get the Bryston to sound euphonic enough for them. From Jay's comments about the Pandora + M vs Christine + M, my preference would be the Christine + M. Just as the Gryphon amps are different, with perhaps the M being the most neutral, the Pandora might have a slightly euphonic character like the Antileon amp, so Jay personally likes Pandora + M the best. |
Exactly my point. Cars are cars. Music is music. You do not need a Mephisto amplifier and Pandora preamplifier to get the whole package. You can have the same dynamics and resolution with much less expensive gear. There is big time prestige of brand involved here. Not saying that’s bad. If thats your cup of tea, then blow your $ and enjoy the feeling of owning that kind of jewelry in your living room. But please don’t make us believe those Gryphon components are expensive because they bring the experience to another level. It’s not a Ferrari. It’s audio circuits...much less complex to build. Analogies are analogies, they work to a certain point... With audio / electronic and music, it’s a whole lot more subjective world... |
And planes are planes and trains are trains. And a bear isn’t a lion. Analogies still hold true. I’ve road raced motorcycles, cars, and done competitive shooting. Some of the best guns for that type of shooting would be lousy for normal carry or hunting purposes. The best racing bikes would be totally impractical in stop and go traffic, or any pace less than full out. Putting the best street tires on one would totally ruin its chances of a great performance.Tecno, a car is a box of bolts, wires, electronics, and metal, etc before it’s put together. How well it works depends on the quality of the components and how well engineered the design is to work as intended. These are all mechanical and electrical products built designed and engineered by people to perform a certain function. So yes, the analogies are absolutely valid. No one has denied that you can get great sound by spending much less than gryphon. Thats not the point at all. As with most things, there’s the law of diminishing returns. But if you are in search of that last 5-10 percent, and the nuances it brings, and have the pocket books for it, there are options. Most of my systems are not at that level, at least one is in the ballpark. I wasn’t considering price when I bought, I was looking at the results. I’d love to be able to spend much less and get equal results, would give me more money for my other hobbies. Viber, in no way would I call the gryphon euphonic. I own a few bryston products myself, so feel like I can speak about what it is vs what the gryphon products are. There are products even more detailed than the bryston, but some of those fall on the side of becoming annoying and not balanced. Yes, those details might be there, but they’re emphasized over other qualities that are also there, and no longer true to the original recording. The sound these gryphons are producing is too solid, not overly airy, not over emphasizing any one component of the music, to be called euphonic. You are zeroed in on a certain sound that appeals to you as an individual, and it works great for you obviously. I like many different types of sound, and find parts of each that I enjoy, though the Mephisto seems to have the best parts of most all wrapped into one. I find my krell and soulution systems to be more detailed than the bryston, so I personally do not consider the bryston to be the utmost in detail, though I do love what it does. It’s certainly not the smooth sweet sound of a Luxman. Of course, all these opinions depend on where you stand with your personal preferences, and we all have those. |
speedbump6, Agree with much of what you say. I have had a few different Bryston models over the years, and what you say is true, with the notable weird exception of my little 2.5B SST2. This is in a class by itself, with its detail and coolish tonality. I found the Krell 2250e to be almost as detailed as my Bryston, but other Krells were much less detailed, and more euphonic. I have no experience with Soulution. From reviews, the Soulution 500 series is more euphonic than the 700 series. When I told Bryston about my experiences, they didn't understand it, and kept to their statement that all the SST2 models sounded the same, except for different power ratings. The 4B is their most popular amp with its medium high power rating. Many people go for Bryston for its high watts per dollar value, reliability and relatively light weight. I bet that much fewer low power units were sold, and Bryston is too busy selling products to do the comparative listening I did. Euphonic is a relative term. Relative to the Mephisto, the Coliseum, Antileon and maybe the Essence are euphonic, according to reviews and Jay's findings. But things like Dag, Constellation, Luxman, Pass, Rowland are much more euphonic. Analogies describe some things in common, but cars, planes, bikes, guns are all different enough from each other, so analogies ultimately fall apart. Amplifiers have differences, but nowhere near the extent of differences between natural musical instruments. I can easily put amps into general camps of bright/cool/detailed vs dark/warm/less detailed. However, violins have a kaleidoscopic variety of tonal characteristics so I can't say which violin is brighter, more detailed, quicker in response, or many other subtleties of tonal complexity than another violin. I can't make good analogies when comparing violins for this reason. |
speedbump6 - I teach motorcycle track riding and enjoy target shooting, though I haven’t done either in quite a while (due to a crazy, excessive - stupid work schedule). Very true about purpose built machines and / or equipment. Those 2 hobbies require much more preparation and time to enjoy (not to detract from them) - one of the things I enjoy about music is there's hardly any preparation (I leave our system completely - though it's not operating now). |
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Techno, I do not remember it being said that magico were on the way, in fact I remember Jay mentioning that he didn’t feel like they would be as good as what he already had. I’d say posting that link is no more abussive than posting a thumbs down is. No names were mentioned, though it seems you have taken it personally. Maybe the question of who the same two who always post a thumbs down has been answered for one of them, lol. |
Once again speed bump, you stole the words out of my mouth. If you find the link above offensive, then you might want to look in the mirror and figure out WHY you find it offensive. The link posted doesn’t target a specific person. It is meant to address the negative behavior that occurs from time to time on here and clearly on my YouTube channel. I found the link informative and it explains certain behavior that occurs here repeatedly. Hell, it actually made me understand the WHYs of such behavior. |
When someone begins to search for the psychological profile of his followers because he mostly can’t stand a couple thumbs down, hasn’t his audio hobby probably come off road ( car analogy ...) a little bit too far ? Living with the criticism is and will always be part of forum thread (or yt channel ) sharing. |
Anyhow, moving on and away from the noise above: The Boulder 2110 vs Gryphon Pandora will push the boundaries to the extreme. As i sit here listening to the 2110 i can say it will be one of the most difficult decisions i am going to have to make. They COULD NOT be more different sonically-speaking. This will be about my personal preference between both and not about one being better than the other. It is more about choosing your poison and calling it a day. More amps are scheduled to come next month. I plan to use different amps to put both preamps through the motions and see WHICH ONE is the one that really does more for me even without the Mephisto in the mix. As i said, i am looking to improve MY OWN system. I am improving on the best version of what i have put together through today and we will see if this Boulder 2110 can win me over just like the Pandora already has. |
Quoting WC: Moving away from the noise above... that YOU started by posting the psychological link, and audiogon thankfully removed it. And speedbump, it seems audiogon is not of the same opinion as you...😉 Back on subject, will the Boulder 2110 like the Gryphon VIP cables ? I mean there are Gryphon supposed to be made for Gryphon... What if the Boulder outperforms the Pandora with the Gryphon cables ? |
I remember having heard those same exact words tecno, was a very long time ago, when me and my brother were quite young, lol. Always blaming the other for “ starting it”. You might try reading some of the other threads on this forum if you haven’t heard others characterize others. You might read back some of your own posts in fact. If I were to believe your previous posts, anyone who talks positively about expensive equipment is only trying to hawk product for those manufacturers or their distributors. I have seen on other threads where some will say people are just trying to justify the money they spent by praising it, though that wouldn’t work with Jay, he switches out gear more than some people change their underwear. So he’s obviously not married to anything he owns. If you haven’t had exposure to other forums, or other threads on this forum, I can see where you how you might come up with that statement. Some people detest companies like Microsoft, Apple, and Google, because of their power and wealth. They wouldn’t have that power and wealth though if they didn’t bring a good product to market that people want or need. I can see where the smaller companies may hate having to compete with them for sure. The biz I own is small, and it’s a tough world having to compete against the big companies and what they can offer. I don’t worry much about what they can do because of their money and scale, I worry about what I can do with what I have to make the most of that. I bring the same thinking to what I do in all aspects of my life, including my audio systems. I try to figure out what works best for my budget, and if Jay or anyone else can afford better equipment than me, I am happy for them. It has zero affect either way on what I can do, so why should it bother me? I’ve seen many threads on this and other forums praising expensive equipment, was wondering why you have chosen this specific one to bring negativity about that level of product to? |
He doesn't post anywhere on audiogon...it is easy to follow where else he has posted... Very little activity on other threads but he loves my journey :) and is really primarily focused on what I am doing. I guess no bad press is bad press ? I don't hate anyone, but I don't like it when I am personally attacked. I don't post on ANY AUDIO FORUM ANYWHERE. I am doing my thing and don't care to read what others are doing unless they share it here. If it is not shared here then I have zero clue what the rest are doing with their systems. I got way too much on my plate to be concerned with things I can't control. See, I will say it publicly HERE: if techno stopped being the antagonist and had more "normalcy" then we can start with a clean slate. I don't hold grudges (I've said this before) but when people just have it out for me then yes I gotta defend myself. It's the right thing to do when you attack anyone. |
I don’t post on ANY AUDIO FORUM ANYWHERE. I am doing my thing and don’t care to read what others are doing unless they share it here.That just proves that you are only interested in promoting your agenda. The majority of others here read a lot more than just your thread. They are here to learn about things. You are here to promote what you want to promote, not to learn about equipment or audio. |
Oh wow. You still alive man ? Oh thank you for continuing to follow and reading my thread. I thought you had tuned out and changed the channel. I guess you still read and only post when you are in position to say something to attack me. Cool though. I appreciate that you are STILL here reading. Yes I am here to promote high end audio and to sell massive amounts of gryphon and wilson to the greyhounds of the world. I can’t keep track of all the orders. I had to call the cops because the line is out to the middle of the street right now with buyers ready to buy my gear. Go ahead and begin the bashing of whitecamaross. We are all anxiously awaiting your next post to confirm that you still read this thread and that you also will only post to create narratives about me as you just publicly demonstrated. |
I for one don't have the time to read and post on most of the audiogon threads. Do I post on others occasionally - yes, but it's an exception and not the norm. I follow this thread because of the insights shared. Long ago, many brick and mortar stores closed (at least the ones I shopped at) - now we need to share experiences to gain understanding and insights of equipment. I don't agree with everything Jay does, but I respect him for all he does. We all have different values, we can all respect each other for their own values while still gaining the experience we otherwise would never be exposed to. Could anyone of us imagine doing what Jay does? Let's be honest. I certainly can't - I have way too much going on and not enough hours in a day. Even if we could do what Jay does - why attack him? Will anything positive come of it? How about taking a step back and viewing things from a long term perspective? No one will agree with everything. But does that mean we won't benefit from Jay and others sharing? Even though I don't always agree with the analogies - can't we choose what we like and leave the rest (what we don't like) - kind of like ordering at a restaurant? We can "order a - la - carte" and select what we like. Or - we can attack each other and pick each other apart, or (as I've stated before) urinate on each other. Result - we'll all have urine on us. How about benefiting when we can and respectfully disagree when we don't. And - lets realize, all this costs none of us anything! It really shouldn't be that hard, so let's stop the attacks and, if you really feel strongly - then constructively / nicely say that's not what you experienced. There are many things I question, but instead of attacking Jay - I would like to experience Jay's system with music I'm intimate with and see for myself. For the record, I respect ALL THAT JAY DOES even though I don't agree with it all. Remember all the work involved in what Jay does - I DON'T SEE ANYONE OFFERING TO HELP HIM WITH THE WORK. If we try really hard, maybe - just maybe we won't cause the thread to be closed / shut down again. Last time, I wrote the moderators and requested the thread be re-instated based on the merits - the value, insight and experience it provides and shares. More than any other thread on Audiogon! Enough with the attacks. It degrades this discussion and limits our ability to exchange experiences. And - I'm really eager to see what the heck this guy is going to do next! I just don't see how the heck he'll top what he's done! But - I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he will! |
@tjassoc Thank you for last post. You and a lot of other people are eager to see what I will do next. Most people don’t do what I do and that is WHY this thread has survived for 4 years. The bickering will continue unfortunately because that is the job of certain people. It’s kinda like when I was in the military: there was always one or two people who ruined a good thing for the whole platoon. I remember there were 2 who got caught eating candy (we weren’t allowed in bootcamp) and so the drill sergeants brought them front and center and told the whole platoon that we will be on the floor, doing push ups beyond muscle failure while we watch the other 2 people who screwed up actually sit on a chair and eat a bag full of snickers chocolate bars as they watched us do push ups. This is a TRUE STORY by the way. Soon after we were punished for them eating candy, you can imagine how pissed off we all were at those two. This is how drill sergeants get people to cooperate as one unit or else we all pay for the weak ones. They also know that we will probably be extremely aggressive towards such individuals behind closed doors. Those days are long gone though...but it was never frowned upon if you hated someone and went behind the building and went at it until both were separated by a superior. The next morning both showed up to work with black eyed and swollen lips and nobody would be ratting anyone out or be a snitch. Man I miss the good old days... Those days when if you didn't like someone , you went behind the building and knocked each other out and then the beef would be over. Nowadays, that isn't possible... everybody has a gun, not a fist. |
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the closer WC gets to audio perfection the worse the trolls. "experts" feel their authority threatened by empiricists i'd reckon. love the Boulder Jay. it looks amazing. after reading a review of the integrated 866 one understands how seriously they treat noise and the modularity of the pre really shows that. is it much noisier than the Pandora? i'm glad that youtube is working out as a way for you. you are doing something quite unique i believe and something that i personally find very valuable. you deserve some energy for it if nothing else! |
I just read a Positive Feedback review of the Core Power 1800 Mk II power conditioner (I have an early version), into a 20 amp dedicated line. And while I found that changing from the supplied PC to a Wire World improved the sound, the reviewers analysis was contrary (need to double check that after reading the review). My point being that sonic bliss, or lack thereof, can be well upstream of the amp, speaker interface AND which power supplies your kit has! Reviewer: Sam Rosen I also noticed that the Core Power Gold power cord enhanced this presentation. Removing it, and replacing it with a WireWorld Power cord (he didn’t say which model) brightened the sound of the system, and created a middle ground between no Equi=Core and the Equi=Core with the Gold power cord. Long story short, the Core Power Gold power cord may be incredibly effective on its own at taming a harsh top end and is worth experimenting with. https://positive-feedback.com/reviews/hardware-reviews/core-power-technologies-equicore-1800-mk2/ |
Jay, In the army, I don't know how the guys kissed and made up after hurting each other over the candy infraction. Well, maybe not kissing, but not continuing to be angry at each other is hard for me to understand. Doing tough pushups is unpleasant, but you don't get hurt as you would with black eyes. Young guys don't know how eye blows can injure the retina which is serious. Damaged teeth cost a fortune to correct properly, and many medical problems develop from bad dental care. I don't know how you do it financially, but it will be a blast to hear full Boulder vs full Gryphon, and 2110 + Mephisto vs Pandora + M, Pandora + Boulder amp vs Pandora + M. If you need to sell the M to afford the B stuff, it will be difficult to do these tests, because memory is flawed. Dag Relentless will probably be another euphonic amp like other Dag stuff, overpriced due to cosmetics and Dag's marketing prowess, and a big step backwards from the neutrality and resolution of the Mephisto. Don't waste the money. Block Audio is more "reasonable" but it is still euphonic compared to M, according to your previous findings. M is in a class by itself, so I don't think anything except possibly the Boulder will challenge it. |
@tweak1 interesting find. I will say that i do not like Wireworld powercords. I also want to share something with you all that i have not said before: i live about 15 min away from Wireworld and i have had several conversations with them and told them on multiple occasions that their powercords need help. Someoone needs to call 911 on their powercords. They need serious help with them and of course if i am as honest or blunt as i typically am, i get the eyes of the devil staring back at me which is how i felt when i told them. I offered to bring my Nordost Odin 1 so they can take a look and compare to their top powercord and they did not want to. I have a hard time putting "filters" on when what i have to say something that is unfortunately not good to hear. I pretty much told them that their powercords are waaaaaaay behind and their response was that they don’t plan on changing them because they cant seem to figure out a way to make them better.... |
@viber6: i am not sure where you got the impression that the block audios are euphonic compared to the mephisto? i don’t think i can say that because they were spectacular when i owned them. Block Audios were no joke and anyone who has the opportunity to hear them will be in for a shock. Have you looked at their linestage? it uses 3 powercords, battery powered, it can tell you the temperature of the block monos, etc. That is one insane linestage. I do not think i have seen another linestage with 3 powercords anywhere. |