2. amps-preamps
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My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:

Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005

With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:

ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)

NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)

Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)

rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)

cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)

parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)

lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)

McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.

butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)

pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.

classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)

Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:



PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.

Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.

Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?

Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.

 It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.

Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.

Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.

Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.

Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.

Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.

My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.

That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!


128x128jays_audio_lab
20,890 responses 
thezaks
712 posts
 
I agree with viber6's points.  I also agree that it would be interesting to hear a different recording to compare these two amps.
Dave
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
V:

I just call ‘em as I hear them without being a slave to subcategories of sound quality, like clarity. Whichever on balance sounds the best will get my vote.

In that shootout the Dag sounded awful, IMO, in reproducing the bass guitar, as I noted that night. That is not how the song is supposed to sound based on strong familiarity, and therefore I judged it profoundly inferior. It was so lacking that it didn’t matter what the treble sounded like. FWIW WC said he agreed (if I recall) in the immediately following post.


On subcategories, I don’t care if my football team had fewer rushing yards or time of possession if they won the game. Like the score on a football scoreboard, overall sound quality on balance is what matters, not building blocks like rushing yards or clarity.

Myself, WC, and 80% of respondents (which in audio preference is near landslide) agreed on the Gryphon in that shootout - when I said previously “Gryphon was better” that’s what I mean: 80% judged it better. It may have been the most lopsided shootout based on results WC has done.


You and 20% preferred the Dagostino and that’s fine. Again, I am not attempting to change your assessment method (I couldn’t care less).
mrdecibel
3,062 posts
 
" Sultan’s of Swing " is a very processed recording, and anyone arguing how it should sound, is simply being ridiculous, imo ( no offense folks ). Another thing.......If only the amp stand was the " variable " during this comparison, I would pay attention to the implied results found by everyone....power cords, as we know, and particularly, at this level, play a big part of a product’s performance ( in this case power amps ), so a true comparison, is flawed, twice. When I evaluate a component, whatever it may be, I need to do it, with as few variables as possible ( generally, the singular component itself ), to make a fair and honest judgement, of my findings, and this , with many years of listening experience and education. Besides, we are all different, in our hearing, our wants, likes, and needs.....so Enjoy !
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Haha, only WC controls what he plays. 
When he plays something popular, people complain. When he plays something obscure, people complain. So there is no way he pleases everyone with music choices 
viber6
2,445 posts
 
Very flawed analogy about a football game.  You seem to believe that all the audio subcategories you can think of have equal weight.  In football or any game, a great team does have everyone contributing high ability.  But in audio, clarity is not merely a subcategory--it affects everything, like R/L separation, depth, tightness at all freq, etc.  And yes, balance.  If the whole freq range is in balance with clarity, that is the ideal.  Live music is about clarity and balance.  What good is balance in an audio system, if clarity in all freq ranges is equally mediocre?  There is the familiar argument that neutrality is not enough, when the whole freq range could suffer from mediocre clarity.  In fact, my narrow electrostatic speakers have greatly reduced output below 100 Hz, but the superlative clarity lets me hear accurate overtones of 50 Hz fundamentals, so psychoacoustically I hear more bass musical information even though the low fundamentals are way diminished.

 If I were to make a game analogy, I would say that clarity is analogous to all-encompassing skill, and depth or other subcategory is analogous to what clothing the players wear or what the cheerleaders do.  The game will be won by whoever has the most skill.  The cheerleaders cannot give an incompetent team the win.
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Easy to nitpick an analogy, but I guess we just agree to disagree. You certainly won’t bring me around to your minority view, and I have no interest in trying to change your mind. Cheers,
viber6
2,445 posts
 
One other point before we close this discussion.  Outside of audio, do you think that clarity is less important than other matters?  Do you like politicians who lack clarity and mislead people?  Phones nowadays have internet, flashlights and other apps, but the most important function-- sound clarity-- has deteriorated, making it harder to get the message across.  Isn't it annoying to say "what?" to someone who is mumbling their words with low clarity?  Music delivers a sound message in the form of words in a song, or several complex instrumental rhythms interacting with a melody.  The message must be as clear as possible.  I don't believe this is a minority view.
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
I don’t know why I’m taking the bait once again, but last response from me and then let’s move on.

Clarity is important, yes, of course. Nobody will dispute that.

But it is not the end all. It is but one sub-component of sound quality. There are numerous others. They together make up sound quality (which everyone will admittedly judge differently).

Clarity may be nearly perfect, but if the timbre is off, as it was (IMO) in the Dag demo of Sultans and which I pointed out on this thread immediately, the overall sound quality (in that demo) is poor. The very incorrect timbre (IMO) was so notable that it overrode anything that clear sounding (bad timbre) clarity could attempt to salvage.

Were I not so familiar with the song I’d likely not have noticed. That’s why intense familiarity with music when critically reviewing is important. (no I’m not saying these fun little exercises WC gives us are critically reviewing, impossible given the playback restraints, but they are entertaining to listen to, insightful even given the limitations, and much appreciated)
speedbump6
760 posts
 
That’s strange, as I felt it was the best audio recoding in terms of quality to date. 
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
No issues with the recording quality, that's not what I'm saying. (other than it is still just a YT vid and we aren't in the room like WC is and we use typically low quality reproduction methods to play it - but we've said that forever).

I thought the Gryphon sounded amazing.  Just didn't like the timbre of the Dag.

Just my opinion.  That's what I heard.  Surely others will disagree - that's the nature of the hobby.  Not claiming to be a super expert.  

FWIW again, WC also acknowledged that the Dag sound was off and pointed to a power cord mismatch - so I know I'm not completely crazy (in addition to 80% or so of voters picking the Gryphon).  It's an individual preference thing and nothing wrong with that.
viber6
2,445 posts
 
On another subject, obviously youtube videos have poorer sound quality overall than the original source.  However, if a system has bloated and excessive bass, then the YT video played on small speakers might have less bass, which would make it sound better in only that one aspect.  Ironically, the tonal balance may be better in the video than the live system in the room.  Of course, the clarity and total information content would be inferior in the video.  I hope WC gets the Maggie speaker, which I am familiar with, having heard many models over the years.  Whatever speaker is about to be unveiled, he is unlikely to immediately get rid of the Wilson, so it would be nice to compare the new speaker with the Wilson on the video, with the same other components and music.

Maybe WC and other listeners familiar with the sound of Wilsons can talk about the specific differences between the system sound of the Wilsons vs the videos, rather than saying the obvious, "they don't compare, etc."
speedbump6
760 posts
 
Karen, it also doesn’t exclude you from being crazy, lol. I believe from the way Jay said it, that the intention is not to replace the Wilson’s, but rather to have another option at a more reasonable price point to show how that might sound. I might even add a set of Tekton double impacts at 3k if I were going to demonstrate different levels. I believe good sounding equipment can make even reasonably priced good quality speakers sound pretty sweet. Even though they would be different brands, still a good way to show the law of diminishing returns to some extent. Could show where the best places to spend are also. 
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
I’m hoping for Spendor but I think it’ll be Klipsch based on WC comments on YT last vid.  I’ll guess Cornwall 4 to be extremely specific. 
If Klipsch that will be very interesting. 
Hard for me to see WC liking Klipsch sound based on his past preferences with speakers but that’s why it’ll be interesting if it happens. 
Perhaps he will?  But I doubt it. 
mrdecibel
3,062 posts
 
Speaking of Tekton, if you read those threads, many folks, including professional reviewers, replaced 30K speakers with the DIs. Now, you have models above those, in which DI owners, have upgraded to. If WC does get the CW 4s, I feel he will be hearing a speaker, that can still use some work ( damping the horns ( mids and tweets ), cabinets, woofer frames, and a few other tweaks, that I know, will get them to another level ). I am guessing the Tekton Ulfs or Encores, as WC wants something that is changing the market, and Tekton, is that company ( yes, this comment, from a Klipsch Heritage guy ). Tekton has the 60 day return, so he will only be out the shipping cost back. This is my guess. Anyway, he is late on the reveal, so, let us get back to the man himself......WC......BTW, I am still, yet to hear the DIs, and up, and that is fine, as I am very happy with the musical performances I hear, with each moment I listen......
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook's avatar
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook
981 posts
 
You can have my Tekton Encores MR D  :)   Not sure what I was thinking. Almost as Tall as me and 145 Pounds each. My back cringes just looking at the unopened boxes....get em outta here!! LOL
mrdecibel
3,062 posts
 
@riaa.......that size and weight, would not bother me........you might be the only person who has the bigger audio equipment addiction, over wc......he, at least, " opens and plays ", with the gear.....lol......
ron17
607 posts
 
Knowing Jay for many years, no way he would take advantage of a return policy to review a speaker then send it back for a refund...not that kinda guy.
mrdecibel
3,062 posts
 
ron, I disagree. There is a return policy, for a reason. WC would send them back, within the return period, if he did not like them. He does hold on to some stuff for more than 60 days ( the Wilson's, as an example ). He does borrow gear, on occasion. Only a handful of folks, based on all that I have read, have sent back Tekton speakers.
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
https://youtu.be/lebgHgVvjTs
ron17
607 posts
 
What I'm saying is I don't think Jay would ever buy a speaker for the purpose of reviewing it knowing he was going to send it back for a full refund less shipping.....Sounds a little unethical to me.  
grey9hound
1,112 posts
 
Wow,
Those sound Freaking Awesome.!
The best sound yet IMO
Clarity , fullness and dynamics in spades !
At least that is what I hear on my computer system
mrdecibel
3,062 posts
 
You TEASE ! 
speedbump6
760 posts
 
I have the ulferberhts myself as mains and center in the home theater and have ordered the moabs for rears. 
mrdecibel
3,062 posts
 
Tekton is my guess, although, not hearing them, I can only base it, on how they are described, by those who have heard / own them.
mrdecibel
3,062 posts
 
Ron 17.....anyone who buys a product, with an in home trial, and a money back guarantee, is doing exactly that ( reviewing and analyzing ), except, they are doing it, for themselves. WC is a human being, and you are making him sound like he is not. Just my opinion, again.....no need to harp on it any more. Always, and Enjoy !
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Whatever they are, not in same zip code of the DAWs. To be expected given cost difference I suppose, or at least not surprising. 
Compared to DAW, sounded smaller and also more sluggish (not as agile). Just my opinion. 
mrdecibel
3,062 posts
 
Nothing I have heard on WC’s videos, compares to what I am hearing in my own listening room. I am sure, this is due, to the limitations of YouTube, and, my laptop system. The Wilson’s, no doubt, sound more open and spacious, than these do....so far.......
grey9hound
1,112 posts
 
@kren0006
I am not sure what you are listening to , but sluggish ...NO Way .
They are Very Clear with fast transients and very Dynamic. At least that is what I hear
mrdecibel
3,062 posts
 
Yes, grey, I am with you, as I cannot fault them, with transients and dynamics. But, as Kren says, they sound much smaller.
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Well I am listening just on an iPhone at work. Haha, gimme a break!! I’ll give it a better listen when I have time.

Edit: ok here is what I mean. Listen to the fingers sliding over the guitar strings. They are really prominent in this recording. Now go listen to that same portion in vids where DAWs playing. Big difference - much crisper. Also when the lyrics start initially I sense a bit of sluggishness in the presentation.


The best part of the song (IMO) actually comes about 20 seconds after the video ends (unfortunately) and I wish WC would have let run a little longer because that riff that we just miss is really awesome with dynamic swings. Oh well...



Just my opinion though. WC asks us to tell him what we hear. I won’t fault anyone for disagreeing if you hear it differently. It’s all good
grey9hound
1,112 posts
 
They don’t sound smaller to me , but they do not sound as 3d as i have heard from his other speakers . They are more forward sounding.,But with some Sistrum Apprentice platforms under them , better placement and once broken in , I’ll bet they open up and sound more dimensional. If they are Tekton , they do much better with 3d sound if toed in some
grey9hound
1,112 posts
 
Edit: ok here is what I mean. Listen to the fingers sliding over the guitar strings. They are really prominent in this recording. Now go listen to that same portion in vids where DAWs playing. Big difference - much sharper. Also when the lyrics start initially I sense a bit of sluggishness in the presentation.

IMO I call that FULL  sounding, instead of being thin . They are still very sharp and quick with the transients , but Full sounding .

kren0006
1,859 posts
 
I probably wasn’t clear and didn’t describe it well.
What I meant to say is the guitar string slides are really prominent in the Keith Don’t Go song (I said recording above but meant that to mean generally not just in this particular video of mystery speakers- can see why my statement was confusing when I reread it).

With the mystery speaker they don’t sound nearly as crisp vs the DAW, but that’s just one example.


Stated another way, they sound much more realistic on the DAW

jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
A couple of things :
-I really don’t like taking advantage of manufacturers who allow you to do in home trials when I know I’m only interested in hearing the product and and then return it. To me, I would only do this if I know for sure I am contemplating buying it for myself (which isn’t the case).
- The speaker I played today is NOT BROKEN IN, improperly positioned (did this so you all couldn’t see it on video) and needs more tweaking.
The purpose of this, is so we can start from the bottom with it and gradually get it to sound better and better as we go forward so we can watch it "evolve" before our eyes. This is the only way we can appreciate the journey. NOTHING, NOT ONE SINGLE COMPONENT hits the ground running in ANY SYSTEM PERIOD. I DONT CARE HOW MUCH EXPERIENCE YOU HAVE. Anytime you introduce a new component (especially speakers) you must slowly begin to make changes and tweaks elsewhere in order to maximize its performance.

Lastly, the intent here is so you can gauge how good a sub 10k speaker can sound (after we take time to fine tune it ) with some of the finest electronics available. It was never intended to battle my Sasha DAW, but rather show us what 10k can get us so we all can say " wow, yes it’s not the Daw but damn for 10k I would be damn happy with that performance".

kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Sure, makes sense. Didn’t expect it to compete but some here  and on YT said best ever (which is fine if that’s really what they think) and I’m thinking, uh let’s not get carried away here - it’s fine but not close to DAW to my ears. 
Will be interesting to hear it improve. 
Might be fun if you list 5 options and let us guess what it is. 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
TRUST ME, IT WILL IMPROVE 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
https://youtu.be/cp6VIBpZfdE
viber6
2,445 posts
 
I like what I hear so far.  The sound is leaner, crisper and less full than the Wilson.  The guitar twangs are particularly tighter.  My tastes in music are away from deep bass, and towards small groups like chamber music, string instruments like guitar, violins, etc.  Maybe the smaller sound with thinness is exacerbated by the small computer speakers on my iMac.  I get the feeling that the overall sound in WC's room is fuller than on the video heard on my computer.  I'd like to hear from people who know Wilsons and can compare to what they hear on their modest computer audio.  Still, it is premature to compare the new speaker to the Wilson, because of positioning and break in effects.
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
Sorry, not feelin’ it.
They sound small, thin and muddy to me.

They performed worse on this song than the first, by a significant margin.  Just my opinion of course 
grey9hound
1,112 posts
 
Interesting.
I say Full.....Kren0006 says Mud . But he also says thin . Isn’t thin the opposite of Full ?
I think It is impossible to be thin and muddy IMO.. Isn’t it ?
Look at the chart.
Fullness and mud are right together at the beginning of the Midrange
250Hz to 500Hz
https://external-preview.redd.it/h-M9EjIW2B0J1EX2w0Wo4fTRwznpLHnFFVExS8wZNvE.jpg?auto=webp&s=fb91a0e866666dc1bdd3a04bd4f70e8c59282a15
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
By muddy I meant the opposite of good clarity. 
So unrelated or at least not inconsistent with the thinness I perceive. 
Don’t take it personally. Just one person’s opinion 


grey9hound
1,112 posts
 
No, I was not taking it personal.
I was just trying to point out that what I heard was different than what, I thought,... that you heard.
But too much muddiness or Fullness could take away from clarity.
kren0006
1,859 posts
 
I think after 50ish videos I’ve just really become a fan of the Wilsons (in addition to dozens of in person positive experiences with the brand).

So that switching to almost anything else will sound like a downgrade to me.

Lots of YT comments saying similar things (don’t sell the DAWs).
It’s all personal preference. No right or wrong.

And swapping speakers naturally gonna have waay more effect on sound quality contrasts than changing between two good amps or two sets of good cables.
viber6
2,445 posts
 
What fun! The new speakers are not seen, but are likely closer to the side walls with wider separation than the Wilsons.  What I am now hearing is more brilliance (than the Wilson) in the upper midrange and HF, but relative muddiness in the lower midrange and bass aka incoherence between top and bottom.  The muddiness will go away once the speakers are away from the walls, closer to each other.  The Wilsons are optimally set up, so that gives them the advantage for coherence in all freq ranges.  The new speaker, being cheaper, probably has smaller midrange, bass drivers and cabinet enclosure, which gives it a smaller, thinner, less full sound than the Wilson.  If they are Tektons, the midrange drivers are actually very small, like tweeters.

Pending better setup, my impression is that the new speaker does better overall in WC's modestly sized room, whereas the Wilson would be more enjoyable to me in a much larger room than in WC's present room.  The new speaker might be lost in the larger room.  Since I like small scale music, I would prefer the Wilson in a larger room, but since WC and others like big, full sound, they would prefer the Wilson in the present room compared to a larger room.

I agree with grey9hound's remarks about "full, thin, muddy."  To solve the problems of which sized room is optimal for a speaker, grey's past mention of the importance of the Lyngdorf room correction system is particularly apt.  This might outweigh the intrusion of electronics from the Lyngdorf.

Break in is a factor, but most important is proper positioning of the new speaker, so the Wilsons should be out of the way while we evaluate the new speaker.
unreceivedogma's avatar
unreceivedogma
963 posts
 
I’m quite happy with my NY Audio Labs‘s Julius Futterman OTL3s, modified to triode. They’ve been going strong for 35 years.  
justmetoo's avatar
justmetoo
381 posts
 
This lot sounds worlds appart from the Wilsons. Seriouly unlistenable to me.

Yes, I’m sure it can be improved - by how much? Who knows...

Though this is so bad, it can only get better - one hopes!

Sorry to be so ’in front of the waggon’ about it.

Michélle 🇿🇦
viber6
2,445 posts
 
I had the Futterman H3AA OTL with the beam pentodes in the early 80's.  I saw him at his bench then.
viber6
2,445 posts
 
justmetoo,
I pointed out the positives and negatives.  Wait until they are optimally positioned.  Playing with amps and cables should wait until they are positioned properly.
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
What if I told you all I have 2 more pairs of speakers coming ... All under 20k MSRP....and by the way , I do this to keep things fun and entertaining but to be 200% transparent with you all, I ALWAYS ALWAYS lose my @ss off with speakers. I have ALWAYS lost money on EVERY SINGLE SPEAKER I have owned and reviewed. Speakers ARE NOT something I want to keep doing because the logistics suck and they take a lot of space. They are the least favorite thing for me to swap out.
Even if I am losing or bleeding money on speakers, I still don’t take advantage of those smaller companies doing in home trials.
Speakers are the greatest and biggest improvement you can make but they are beyond difficult to sell once you are done with them. Wanna know why ? Well here are s few reasons that you almost always hear from potential buyers:
- spoke to the wife and she hated the color (that's a lie...that is the buyer not telling you the truth )
- they don't fit my space 
- hate the shape 
- don't have the amplifiers for it 
- they don't go with my decor 

That said, if your response to those answers above is " how about if I lose -5k-10k  in order to close the deal ?"  Then all of a sudden the buyer magically made them fit, or the color isn't too bad or the wife loves them ... Yep...these are facts :)
thieliste's avatar
thieliste
820 posts
 
If you don't want to keep on loosing on speakers you might want to choose a reference level speaker that you like very much and be done with speakers for many years.That's what i intend to do for my new rig next winter.
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