it is all about preferences... long listening sessions regardless of the volume level. Nobody is wrong or right for listening at low, moderate or loud volume levels because that becomes preference. I personally listen at all volume levels so finding a balance is key for me.
Right now, about 3/4 of the comments on my youtube channel are leaning towards the wireworld presentation. It seems to be more balanced for many people. Which one do you all like? |
I preferred Cardas to Wireworld. Thought the bass through Cardas sounded more substantial and also tighter.
Would have to listen some more to see if I prefer WW to ????
Again, that Luxman and Wilson combo is really nice. |
WC you are so right it's all about your own preferences. I for one want musicality over anything if it ain't musical I can't get involved and to me there's no SOUL to the music. I stated it way back when you were listening to the Audiomica cables I thought they sounded so musical in your system it was eery. I've switched from Cardas to Audiomica and now can listen for hours and hours and hours. Does it have the tightest bottom end? Who cares! Does it have the most extended top end? Who cares! It just makes my foot tap to the beat of the music and get lost into another dimension that puts a smile on my face. Enjoy your journey I still look forward to your posts. |
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Wireworld cable sounding better, more right somehow, just to me too.
Michélle |
The general feeling is cardas is meatier but lacks the air of the Wireworld.... You all wonder what Odin 1 xlr and Wireworld Platinum 8 Speaker cables sound like ? ... :) |
Wireworld is now closed...has been for about 1 month |
Wireworld has died.
Long live Shunyata. 😆
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People out of work wondering how they will pay their mortgages or rent or if they will be out on the street. Hoping they can feed their families.
I hope they and many others can reopen soon.
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Most likely the perceived air in Wireworld cables is due to attention to the inherent directionality of wire. Whereas Cardas apparently overlooks it. There, that wasn’t so hard was it?
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riaa_award_collectors_on_facebookWireworld is now closed...has been for about 1 month It is not completely closed. One of my dealers can have new WW product built and shipped to you.
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I just received a quote on Wireworld last week. The dealer told me they were open again. |
I would not touch that brand with a 10 feet stick. When they say it’s closed, the gear resale value usually takes a dive.
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Guys,
Audio Research, McIntosh, and JVC also closed doors in April.... Wireworld wasn’t the only brand that closed temporarily...
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Are you sure WireWorld is not closed definitely ? My sources say yes. |
Nope...call their number tomorrow...they are 10 min away from my house ... |
Well thats good news then.
Personally, I would still not want to be caught with cables and take a hard hit if they never reopen. But thats just me. |
WC,
For power cords, did you compare AQ Hurricane HC to Nordost Odin 1, with amplifiers or with Denali or Niagara 5000 power conditioners? It seems easier to find used power cords with 15A connectors. Getting 15A to 20A adaptors could work, but maybe introduce compromises.
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Well thats good news then.
Personally, I would still not want to be caught with cables and take a hard hit if they never reopen. But thats just me. If the cables in question are actually highly regarded and or sought after, and the company goes out of business, they might actually go up in value. |
Yeah sure, as if those cables are not enough expensive to begin with..... |
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Ayre KXR TWENTY Preamp with Luxman 900U amp is AMAZING. I might be detecting just a tad more brightness than i’d like, but it could be that it just needs to settle in for a few days. More to come on this amazing preamplifier. Could it be my top Solid State preamp of all time?
We will have to find out :)
PS. The response to my Cardas vs Odin 1 xlr has been incredible and i just uploaded it. Do you all see HOW you can actually hear a difference with just ONE SINGLE cable being swapped out? |
Whitecamaross,
I am glad that you are trying the Ayre KXR 20 preamp. I had suggested that you should try it a while back. I own this preamp and it is amazing. It is also John Atkinson’s (stereophile) all time favorite preamp.
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The difference between Ayre and Luxman:
Luxman is technology to the service of music.
Ayre is music to the service of technology.
Looking forward to learn the differences between those two preamps in WC’s system. |
Techno-dude.
"
Luxman is technology to the service of music.
Ayre is music to the service of technology."
What does this statement mean?
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I listened to the Ayre KXR TWENTY some more last night and i can say this is THE VERY FIRST preamplifier that has EASILY shown me the difference in sound quality between streaming (TIDAL, QOBUZ) and local files (flac, dsd, etc). i will expand on this later. |
whitecamaross
Good to see the Ayre in your system.
Nice video on Cardas v. Nordost.
Happy Listening!
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whitecamaross,
I have been reading your thread and watching your videos with great interest.
I have Alexia one's with all-esoteric digital and Audio Research Ref6 (soon to be SE) and GS150. I just purchased a luxman M-900u based partially on your enthusiastic reviews.
I noticed you have had a Ref 6 and SE in the past, but went back to the Luxman preamp to pair with the power amp.
Can you briefly tell me, how do you think I'll like the switch from GS150 to M-900u, and how well do you think the Ref6 pairs with it? Even if the Luxman pairs better, what are the differences. I could perhaps move to the Luxman in the future but would prefer to keep my Ref6 for a while if I'm going through with the upgrade. Plus I just love ARC.
Thank you! |
This could be a great question that i can answer on my next video. Look me up on Youtube. Luxman C900U vs Ayre KXR TWENTY shootout is happening this week. |
Awesome, I'm subscribed to your channel already! Thank you sir. |
@2fastdriving I have the ARC Anniversary 40 working with the Luxman M900u in my system, and I love the combo. They are feeding TAD CR-1's, which are pretty finicky. The ARC pre added the right amount of tube with the amazing Luxman amp. I'm guessing that the Ref6 will mate well, too.
I also have the C900u pre, and it is clearly just an outstanding preamp, as well, but not the right flavor for my speakers. Too much of a good thing in combo (the TAD's need some pull back from detail, IME). Now, the Luxman combo was so good together that it did get me pondering for awhile whether I should be looking for other speakers.... I just decided that the speaker change was too big of a "zig" for me and my room and all of that. |
whitecamaross - I forgot to mention that I very much like the Audio Research house sound: huge soundstage, silky lifelike mids, textured bass, airy highs.
I actually love the sound I get now with my GS150. The reason I am even making this change is to get a little deeper bass, a little more detail without getting analytical sounding, and definitely to reduce the heat in the room. The GS150 is like having a heater in my room.
jbrrp1 - That's great to hear! very promising. I don't want "too much" detail in my system, I like a tubey sound, but not too veiled. That's why I prefer Audio Research in general, I do love their house sound and I don't want the Luxman to detract from that, but support and enhance it in the lows. |
techno__dude:
I would definitely agree with your statements about service to music and technology for those two components. It will be interesting to see if WC comes to the same conclusions, after spending time with both. Some will prefer one flavor and others will prefer the other. I guess we’ll get to have somewhat of an opinion too, after we watch the video.
WC:
I watched the XLR comparison video. It’s interesting when you start with the Odin and then go to the Cardas - it almost seems muffled at first when going to the Cardas. So, I waited a while and then went back to your video and listened to the Cardas first, and then I listened to the Odin. While I can still tell the differences, this time I found that I kind of didn’t like some of the things the Odin did vs the Cardas. I can now understand why the Cardas would be preferred by some.
Dave
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whitecamaross
2nd Note-
Ayre incorporates the technology from your pre-amp into the company's Integrated amp (AX-5 Twenty). It is superb at its price-point.
Happy Listening!
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I understand how thezaks liked the sound of the Cardas when he listened to that first. Although I enjoy the greater purity of the music and get closer to the music with the Odin, especially in the background instruments with their HF overtones, I believe that the system’s overall purity is due to bypassing the preamp. When the Ayre preamp is broken in enough, I hope you do a video with and without the Ayre. You could use the Cardas straight from the DCS into the amp, and get more purity than if you used Odins from the DCS into the Ayre, and then into the amp. For purity, there is nothing as important as bypassing the preamp, assuming for that particular music such as this one in your video, you have plenty of volume.
For those who want the dynamics and bloom that a preamp adds, I will ask you to think about comparing the purity and delicate taste of freshly picked corn to several days later. There is no contest, and everyone would agree that fresh brings out the max in range and delicacy of flavors. For ultimate listening pleasure, think of the purity of the music as you would think of the purity of the taste of fresh food.
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So as i sit here tonight listening to the DCS VIVALDI connected to my luxman 900 u amp i realize that at this level there is a HUUUUUUUUUGE law of diminishing returns. I can HONESTLY SAY that having a DCS Vivaldi and using it as a preamp pretty much puts in your hands a dac that beats probably 60-70% of the preamps out in the market today and the 30% of the preamps that can beat this dac probably cost as much if not more than this dac. Right now, and although it is a preliminary feeling, i could easy sell the Ayre Preamp RIGHT NOW and any other preamp i have owned and use that money instead to buy the clock for the vivaldi and more AES, BNC cables for the dac to elevate it.
Here is what i have gathered after living with the DCS Vivaldi:
1.A WELL DESIGNED DAC is probably able to do a 2 men job: Dac & Preamp AS LONG AS YOU LISTEN within reasonable volume levels
2. If you need horsepower, big volume levels, your room is huge and needs to spread a ton of air in order to fill it, no dac will EVER best a well designed preamp when it comes to this.
In short, let’s say you have 30k to spend and you are thinking this:
1. 30k DAC
2. 15K PREAMP 15K DAC
3. 20K PREAMP AND 10 DAC
If you have a small room, don’t listen at pretty big volume levels, go with option #1 10 times out of 10.
If you have a relatively large room, big speakers, sit back pretty far, have other sources that you need to connect such as a turntable, etc then go for option #2 or #3.
I FINALLY ACCEPT TODAY that no preamp, HAS EVER bested a dac when it comes to the purity and detail at low level listening. EVER, EVER EVER and if that preamp exists, i have not met it and to be TOTALLY honest, WHY would i spend another 20,30, 40k to hear THE SAME THING that i am already getting at low volume levels? it is stupid. Save your money people.
In short, and the take away from this should be that your volume level and room determine what works best as a preamp.
I almost spent a pretty penny by buying some top end xlr cables to go from my dac into the Ayre and then use my odin xlr from the ayre into the amp, but i hit the brakes instead because i want to first convince myself that a preamp is indeed what i need to have here. Don’t be surprised if i end up moving forward with just a Dac and completely killing the idea of a preamp for me, my room and listening habits as of late.
Yes, i still own the Ref6SE, Luxman 900u preamp and now the Ayre KXR TWENTY so i have more than enough to make a decision when it comes to owning a preamp. If i decide not to, you all can be sure that i did ENOUGH testing and listening of my own that i just don’t need a preamp anymore. Granted, i have serious cables and a supporting cast for this dac that really makes it work that much better, but i need to feel like having all this money tied up in a preamp is indeed worth it because i am getting something i can not live without and this will be the exercise i need to endure over the next few weeks.
This Ayre Preamp will be the final nail in the coffin for me. If this preamp STILL does not convince me to keep it for at least a few months then i will sell all my preamps and close the "preamp" conversation for me. Yes i will still try a preamp here and there because i want to try whatever new preamps come out and nothin else. Remember, for me the investment is rather large and if a preamp CAN’T do MORE than what my dac already does then that is redundant for me and i rather put this money on something else like a second pair of speakers, etc. |
Well, if one has a turntable, that's a reason why someone would need a preamp. And many dacs, such as my esoteric k01x, do not have a volume. Many do, but are definitely not at the level of your dcs Vivaldi.
So it's a mixed bag, but I see your point. |
Very interesting WC. As you know, I am a big believer in less is better regarding hi end audio.
Never forget that the dcS dac is a reference ultra high end piece, with a very good preamp section build into it. Modern audio is undeniably going in that direction... Preamps with dac modules included, or dacs with preamp section included. This is why I own the C47 McIntosh preamp ( coupled to a Luxman M900u ). One piece replaced two , got rid of the extra powercord and set of interconnects. And the modern dac I got rid off was seriously no joke at 6k usd msrp.
AND also, market will keep developing better all in one integrateds. But thats for another subject.
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Next you should get the MSB and permanently retire the dCS :)
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@whitecamaross
WC, thank you so much for all your efforts and hard work. wow this is a legendary thread you have been running for so many years and you are giving us frank unadulterated end user view of the components.indeed very rare and valuable.
on a slightly different note if i may ask you. as of now, as per you, what are your top/best 5 pure analog only integrated amp say from a price range of 9k to 15k USD that you know of or tried.would be great if you can rank it from your perspective. |
If you get a clock don't get a Overpriced DCS/ESOTERIC one. Get the Cybershaft 021 while its still available. Costs MUCH less and will outperform either of the above for under $8000 all in and that includes power supply/footers. |
WC, you just came up with a very interesting conclusion about today’s best preamps. In the late 90’s, I purchased an Audio Alchemy (AA) CD player with volume control, to replace an early Telefunken CD player (which sucked real bad...). The AA CD player was feeding a Classé Audio DR-7 preamplifier/DR-9 power amp. The DR-7 preamp was one of the best SS preamp at the time, a two-piece design with separate PS.
Once I connected the AA CD player directly into the DR-9 power amp, there was no coming back and sold the DR-7 preamp. The DR-7 was subtracting some bass and low level details compared to the AA direct connection.
However, technology evolving at a fast pace, I was recently reconsidering this decision with my current reference system. I guess you just put the last nail on the coffin regarding this idea with your recent finding...LOL!
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Oh dear, DAC directly into poweramp, here I go again...
Shall I be mildly, or deeply, embarrassed not to call a dCS DAC my own?
Maybe my comment is targeted to folks that muck about below the stratospheric equipment regions...
Like I'm still using an ML 390S (it's actually a CD 'processor' not just 'player' mind you) with actually one very fancy volume control (not the bit stripping kind) i.e. the like that's used in most ML preamps, ML 38 onwards at least.
Some sort of very fine, 0.1 dB step attenuator and no Alps potentiometer either.
Maybe GOOGLE it if it warrants more interest.
So, of course what helps in my case too is, that I as well have to handle a tt...😉 Fine.
The point, of using my ML 326S preamp now in place of a direct connection from DAC to amp is that it simply sounds... BETTER in my scenario.
In the situation described it's nothing new actually, was also e.g. mentioned at the time by John Atkinson, if I recall correctly...
So - as always, IT ALL DEPENDS... on your gear etc.
Whereby in NO way do I wish to diminish WC's latest - epiphany on the subject. 😅
Michélle
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@dasign
I am glad that my findings helped you save money and make a decision. This is what I hope my thread can do for some of you. My findings are free advice and by no means are he final word but it is the final word for my own personal situation.
I will be posting more thoughts later on in regards to using dacs as preamps.
For everyone else, if you are contemplating to buy a dac to use as a preamp, check back here because I will be adding more information that will help you. |
WC,
I agree with everything you said about how any preamp is a step backwards for purity and your present system in a medium sized room. When you do the bypass test with/without the Ayre preamp, that will be the FINAL nail in the coffin for preamps. If you do a video on that, this will be educational for everyone.
As far as value for the money you will get by selling all your preamps, I would go for speakers. Maybe Mike Fremer's top Wilson, the Alexx I think, or the much cheaper GTA which is probably THE best value that excels at nearly everything you want. The rest of the DCS dac components are the icing on the cake, but the GTA is the best cake.
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Thanks Viber6 but GT Audio Works will be releasing it’s new Reference 3 speakers in about a month. In comparison to what you heard previously these are a major upgrade sonically in every department. The planar magnetic panel has undergone a major design change.
this design change has resulted in an absolute reduction in any resonance on the membrane.
You and any members on this forum are welcome to contact me as we are going to begin social distancing auditions once we have the speakers in our show room.
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I listened to the Ayre KXR TWENTY some more last night and i can say this is THE VERY FIRST preamplifier that has EASILY shown me the difference in sound quality between streaming (TIDAL, QOBUZ) and local files (flac, dsd, etc). KX-R Twenty is the best pre-amp I’ve ever heard. Lucky you! Your post makes me want to try another comparison of FLAC v WAV. I could not tell any difference when I listened ~5 years ago. But I was running Ayre QB-9 DSD > Ayre AX-7e > Vandersteen 2Ce Sig II. I’ve since upgraded every component in the chain Ayre QB-9 Twenty > Ayre AX-5 Twenty > Thiel CS2.4 (major upgrade of all passive parts, everything except drivers and cabinet). My system is now as resolved as any I’ve heard. Of course, I’ll be sad if I decide I need to convert my collection into WAV! |
WC , how would you compare the Lampizator flagship dac you owned to the dcS ? In preamp mode, if I remember correctly the Lampi was really something also.
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I really thought it was an incredible dac. I wish i still had it so i could compare it with my DCS. The best way to describe DCS is that it pulls a ton of detail out of the recording and puts it front and center while the Lampi worries more about engaging you and keeping you seated. The DCS is more my cup of tea because i am in love with the minute details found in recordings, but that is just my personal opinion.
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Update: Tomorrow's video will be EPIC. Is the Ayre KXR TWENTY still a king when it comes to solid state preamps? How much better is it from the Luxman C900U and can it elevate the luxman m900u? can it do a better job with it than the preamp designed for the m900u? i guess we will find out tomorrow. One last thing: ugh... well... Let me put it short and simple: there is ANOTHER WORLD CLASS AMP AND PREAMP arriving tomorrow. Yes, big, well known brand that will have to be thrown in the fire against the Luxman amp, preamp, and Ayre preamp. I believe we are headed for PLENTY of shootouts: - Ayre KXR TWENTY VS LUXMAN C900U
- AYRE KXR TWENTY VS (ANOTHER WORLD CLASS PREAMP)
- LUXMAN C900U VS (ANOTHER WORLD CLASS AMP THAT COSTS TWICE THE MONEY)
- FULL LUXMAN 900U SETUP VS (A 70K MSPR PREAMP/AMP COMBO)
It is about to get serious... but just remember, i do this madness for ME as well as YOU ALL. Once i am done with Luxman, you all will have proof of how good it is after seeing it go at it with many different brands. In my head, it is STILL the best bang for the buck and i am proving that to myself as well as you all. However, like all good things, everything comes to an end and the show must go on. I want you all to have enough substance and proof of how good the 900U is before i part ways with it. Yes, i will part ways with it. The only reason WHY i brought it in was to show you all how good it is since i already knew this. It will be sold soon so i can continue to push forward. For now, STAY TUNED in order to find out WHAT I have coming tomorrow :) |
