How does Rowland compare with the 3 in that video, wcss?
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
kudos for trying a $12K integrated with a $100K dac and $37K speaker. most people who would buy a 100K DAC with sneer at the 12K integrated and would instead have separates and if they would try integrated would get a much pricier one. now would be curious how much of that same synergy could be maintained with a 10K DAC. |
Great monster thread here. Lots of nice opinions on the top Luxman integrateds and separates - any thoughts about the slightly smaller 507mkii. This is described as having the identical preamp section as the 509/590 - and preamp is where the magic happens. It just has one less output stage than the 509, but this may be a good things as I easily subsist on a 30 watt tube integrated with volume <10 o'clock in a medium sized room with monitor type setup. Considering switch to SS. The Pass integrated also look very nice. Thanks, |
I’d love to know what the secret is to hearing subtle changes in amplification ( assumed to be level matched or all bets are off) over You Tube; kind of a stretch but maybe I’m not doing it right. Do you run your laptop into your high end home systems, listen over phone transducer, pc desktop speakers? Thanks 🙏 |
I agree with dpac996 - how are we supposed to identify a system's performance listening through our desktop electronics and speakers? The best desktop computer's audio performance is no match to an even moderately high end system. Laptop audio is even worse. And there's the recording equipment (microphone, A/D convertor, internet transmission, and many of other potential variables). And whitecamaross's system has some of the best components! I like when whitecamaross tells us what he experiences in his comparisons, his likes and dislikes. This is PRICELESS!!!! Who has the time to do what he does? Shelping equipment, setting things up and optimizing performance? I am very grateful for whitecamaross's honest feedback. I hope I'm not sounding like I'm attacking anyone because that ABSOLUTELY THE LAST thing I want to do, I just can't honestly give feedback on a high end system's performance without listening to it directly - and I'd REALLY would like to one day listen to his system :-) |
@tjassoc thanks for your comment above. You bring up an interesting point which is that yes, most of you listen to my videos or just youtube videos in general using your iPhone/android with headphones and yes i am talking about the cheap 20 dollar headphones that come with the phones. Then there is another group that has a better set up to listen, but honestly how many people do you REALLY think that is? I am not opposed to eventually getting a better mic system/ recording equipment , but i gotta put things into perspective. WHY am i going to offer you an expensive steak cooked to perfection and you are going to drench it with BBQ sauce? |
In accordance with tjassoc, I think it would be useful for you to give a quick 2 minute take on your findings at the end of each video, because the differences are best heard by you in your own room. The videos heard on inferior equipment are much less revealing, but they do have the advantage of being able to go back several times to try to describe the differences. To avoid bias, we can stop the video 2 min before the end so we are not biased by your findings. Then when we have formed our own judgments, we can hear your conclusions. The best of both worlds. |
Guys it's the music.... You can't use any song you feel like playing on YouTube. It is copyrights. Usually the artist does not have a contract with YouTube where they make money from it. For instance, Fleetwood Mac is highly protected and YouTube won't allow any videos with their music. If the artists isn't making $$$, then YouTube can't play it. It's business at the end of the day. Sometimes the artist doesn't want just 25 cts for each time their songs play. Sometimes they want 1 dollar instead and YouTube gives them the middle finger. As simple as that. |
WCSS--since we are all spending your money, how about anything from Soulution and https://www.sony.com/electronics/projector/vpl-vw995es? Apologies if you have already done these. |
Right now I have to get my speakers repaired but when I / we listen to our system, I leave our Pass XA-200.5's (and entire system) on continuously. Our system sounds drastically better after being on (not in stand-by) for 24 hours. Plus - it also allows you to listen and enjoy great music anytime you want :-) Without trying to offend anyone, I invested thousands of dollars in a music system to enjoy the best reproduction of music possible - saving electricity is a relatively low priority. |
It’s probably fair to point out that WC never intends to keep an amp for more than a couple months. Some of us keep our equipment for 20 years, and therefore may be more concerned about longevity than if we knew we were going to sell our amps within a couple months. Not a criticism, but an important distinction. |
To be honest here, MOST PEOPLE that i have spoken to have never owned a component for 20 years... I mean, that is almost unheard of nowadays, but i guess there is still a possibility there. I also want to point out, if you are going away on vacation for weeks or if there is a thunderstorm, etc then yes unplug your amps. Let me just clarify on something: IF you are a REGULAR user of your system, DO NOT unplug your stuff, but if you are the type that listens every 2 weeks because you travel for work, etc, etc then yea i can understand you unplugging things. As far as the Niagara 5000 vs Denali 6000T, i will be talking about this during my next video which will come tonight. |
Thanks for your recommendation that for clarity, go for the AQ Niagara 5000 plus Hurricane power cord feeding it. "Emotion" means many things to different people. In my case, when I hear more clarity, that leads to a better appreciation of the intricacies of the music I love. Greater love and appreciation=emotion. Also, more snap/sizzle (without excessive volume) = more excitement, that type of emotion. |
I have a LOT of experience with MIT cables - like 20 plus years. Man, I'm old :-( Anyhow - to me, they sound natural. One has to hear live music to make that comparison. With a high quality system, you can hear the artist's performance and the venue it was performed in. And - no, I am not associated with MIT in any way other then being a consumer. I did find a cable I like better, and became a dealer. Honestly - after trying to help people get their system properly set up (including room treatments) and performing to it's best potential, I gave up trying. Most of us have no idea how many people have pretty decent equipment that is poorly set up. How in heck will they determine any component's performance? Many dealers included! Last time I invited a friend over - he was in disbelief how our system sounded. I couldn't make the investment we made without getting lifelike performance. Just my 2 cents. |
12:23am and i am in such a battle right now. The luxman 900u preamp with odin 1 coming from the dac and silver 8 wireworld xlr from the preamp into the gryphon along with wireworld platinum 8 speaker cables sounds INSANE. Fast, clean, clear, crystalline, big, detailed, dynamic as HELL, but it does not have "soul". It just gives you the facts, without any sugar coating. I then proceed to swap out the odin 1 xlr and replace it with the cardas clear beyond and i hear fullness, smoothness, musicality and SOUL... BIG SOUL in the music, but lacks the dynamics, ultra resolution of the odin 1. It is SUCH A DIFFICULT choice to be honest. Some could argue that "the facts" are what they want and others could argue "musical and emotion" is what they want and NEITHER ONE is wrong. Neither camp is really wrong because it is a matter of taste. I am so blessed to be able to have both here, but i just CAN NOT pick one over the other. I JUST CAN'T guys. If i am in the mood to listen at low-mid levels, the odin 1 xlr is just the ticket to indulge in a massive amount of detail and resolution, but if i want to just floor the gas pedal, cardas just takes you there as smooth as possible without making you turn it down, but you lose the feeling of the road (speed bumps, pot holes, etc are all absorbed and vanish). |
Really enjoyed your last two videos WC and love the 3rd teaser. I hear my preference but I don’t think holding my iphone to my right ear does it justice ;). Really amazing you are also then getting to do the combo described above. Running Odin myself I can understand how going into the high 80db-c avg and above could make me want to switch out a couple cables (for me this would be less than 5% of the time). I also have experimented w the cardas clear beyond pc. Not sure your comparable low/mid/high volume levels though. I do hope folks keep posting their thoughts on the thread here. It is such a great community and obviously all are welcome. I understand why switching over most/all commentary ultimately to utube may be beneficial. Sounds like some regular contributors have already migrated over. will miss their contributions. Keep enjoying the music! |
WC, Your choice would be easy once you accept the fact that very loud listening distorts the music. Even most live, unamplified music is at natural modest volume levels. All of the music on your videos is most lifelike at modest SPL's. But when certain pieces are too loud, it is unpleasant. In my first row seat at a live, unamplified concert, I cringe briefly when it is too loud, but then love the crispness the other 99% of the time at the low to moderate SPL's. The more accurate component at moderate SPL's will give more excitement than blasting the whipped cream/veiled type of sound. As I wrote above, getting the most natural detail and resolution serves the appreciation of all the subtleties of the music, which is EMOTIONALLY rewarding. |