You have the right to not agree with my critical side of this thread. May I remind you that I ´ve also written positively numerous times.
A forum thread is for exchanging opinions, may they be positive or negative or just neutral. Maybe a blog where have complete control would better suit you ( ego).
Let’s get back to topic, for once. |
Your negative criticism is "constant " as ron17 had mentioned. Case closed. |
Your credibility took a big hit when you trashed tube amps and compared a Chrysler product to a Ferrari. I’ve had a CARY Audio 300B amp for 25 years and it sounds AMAZING!! |
May we have the pleasure to read you on the M400s. If you don’t mind stopping the constant off topic brawl... I seem to be able to exercice enough positivism to suggest returning back on course, again.
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Some can be stubborn when the truth is in the front of they eyes. But just won’t admit it. Maybe you need to take your own advice techno-goob |
Go find something better to do with your time T Dud. You've been trolling ever since you first posted and worn out your welcome. No one on the thread wants you here. |
@whitecamaross Our friend BluMartini had a question earlier in the thread about Plinius. (Due to the pre-occupation with tdud he had to open up a still unanswered thread)
I am looking giving the above Plinius models a shot mating one of the above amps with PS Audio PerfectWave Dac, BHK Preamp and a pair of Focal Sopra lll's.
Interested on any thoughts.
Thanks blumartini01-14-2020 5:22pm
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Sure,
So I’ve always said that I believe plinius is one of the best bangs for the buck considering what they sell for on the used market.
I believe they have the highest price/performance ratio. They are well built, they have excellent high frequencies with great musicality.
I don’t really dislike anything about plinius other than the fact that they run extremely hot.
If you want bottom end control then grab a plinius sb301 mk2 , but If you value highs over lows then grab the sa103.
Those models have been discontinued so they should show up on the used market at very good prices.
Also, those amps benefit tremendously from good powercords so don’t be cheap. Buy a great powercord for it. There’s also a modification you can do to the outlet that will enhance its performance ( I don’t know the details on this ).
I’d take a plinius over parasound, bryston , nad, theta digital, new krell amps, McIntosh 601, 611, 1.2kw, mc452.
Don’t disregard the plinius line of amplifiers.
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@whitecamaross
Congrats on acquiring the D’Agostino M400’s. I recently auditioned them in my system and was blown away. I believe you are in for a sonic treat and my hunch they will out-duel the Pass amps. Enjoy
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@jonaiken
Thanks for the feedback. We shall see soon ! |
@chazzzy007
Thanks for the follow up post. Did you own both the SA-103 and the SB-301? I was looking at trying one or both of these out curiosity. I had the Plinius SA-250 Mk lV in my system before and really loved it overall as it did almost everything I need and never mind especially for the amazing value to ear proposition, "WC hit it on the head". I owned a SA-250 MK lV and it also ran hot in both class A and A/B but not scorching as I gave it plenty of breathing room. Not totally sure but I am guessing that the SA-103 will be more like the SA-250 with less power so I'm thinking of trying the SB-300 1st. and give it a run as a consideration for an in between/2nd. system as I 2 fall in and out of love with my toys and move on to the next greatest adventure.
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Heat issues aside, the only negative I believe I've heard from WC on the Xs amps is that they really hit their stride after 5-6 hours of use. That means shorter listening sessions might not have the utmost sound quality (unless the system is left running prior to the listening session).
I suspect then that if the m400's hit their stride quicker and have nearly as good sonics, then they have a good chance of displacing the Xs amps from their throne. Of course, if they are better than the Xs amps, then it's a no brainer.
Dave
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Good points Dave. I'll be sure both are on stock powercords and with 5 hours of playtime. |
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Appreciate the videos, but a video to announce another video isn’t very interesting watching. |
Me thought that was finally it... :(
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I arrived at 3am this morning ... I posted that video to show that I'm going to be doing the video and to communicate something after not posting any videos for a week. Cut me some slack. |
I was not negative. Just thought that was the long awaited shootout.
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Thanks WCSS!
should be a great shoot-out video! 👍 |
I enjoyed the video in much the same way I have enjoyed the the spectrum of posts here. Some give comparative/substantive feedback. Others simply set the stage. That’s been the nature of this thread since its beginning. But perhaps the youtube ‘thread’ is supposed to be different... |
My small amps don't get very hot, so once they are broken in I listen as soon as they are turned on. There are no signficant changes after they are on for a few hours. I think few people keep power guzzlers on all the time, so for practical reasons they want the amp to sound good nearly right away. Let's hear how the Dag and Pass compare soon after turn on, and what sonic characteristics change when on several hours later.
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WC,I apologize if you've spelled this out already and I missed it, but I was wondering how the info will come out on your equipment going forward. Will you comment here first and the video comes out later? Or will the video come out first and then discussion to take place here after that?
Thanks,Dave
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Fun stuff WC. Thanks for sharing. Can’t get over the difference in size of those two amps. Sounds like pound for pound the 400s are really impressive. Very cool to hear Fink’s Trouble in the background. glad you are still using
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Very thorough review WC BUT man play some music. I want to hear the system more then listening to you the entire 20 minutes.In the future perhaps you can give us your thoughts on a piece then play music so we can hear what your talking about.
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WC with all due respect. It is a waste of time reporting differences when one amp is sitting on the floor and the other is on a stand never mind using stock power cords. In your words its like comparing cars on the track with one fitted with all seasons and the other high performance tires. |
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Interesting personal account. As far as upgrading your recording equipment, you don't need fancy editing, etc. Just plan ahead and rehearse A/B matching of sound levels to allow for different gain of different amps. Don't go by specs because different tonal balances will affect subjective SPL. Do it by ear. Choose a brief 1 minute excerpt that illustrates your points. But the best external mics with placement in the sweet spot as you would listen is the most critical factor. Some people have good computer audio and would appreciate hearing for themselves the subtle differences you find. The sound still wouldn't be as good as sitting with you live in your room, but the opportunity to replay the A/B tests as often as you want would be invaluable. Even with friends doing live listening, there is a limit on how much patience friends have with each other, bending over to change connections repeatedly, etc. That's the value of high quality recordings. |
Wow, that is a damn fine video. It was exactly like how your posts have been on this site which is why the thread was so popular. Honest, straightforward, assessment of strengths and weaknesses and direct head-to-head comparison. Very well done. Keep it up.
What I liked about the presentation was the emotion and energy. To be honest many of first three videos sounded like you recorded them after being awake for 18 hours straight - you sounded kinda tired on first three vids. But with this fourth one you were not doing background crap or a history lesson -- you were getting into what you do - review and compare amps!! That came thru big time and was so much better. Thanks! |
@whitecamaross, that was a more than excellent review... You really captured the differential character of the two devices...
The two of us may not listen to the same music genres, yet more and more we seem to feel/grok alike when it comes to tonal character.
Saluti, Guido
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Thank you guys for all the feedback. I will say that yes i don’t have the "bubbly" personality that some youtubers have, but maybe it is because i am a former military man? kinda hard to go from being structured and all business to an all picturesque personality (at least for me).
i tried to be as raw as possible which i know it is not necessarily a good thing for some of you, but some do like it.
That said, i do understand that there are things that i could have added such as:
-Fuses
-more stands
-stillpoints,
-metal blocks on top of the amps (or whatever they are called)
-10 different sets of power cords ( in order for me to drive myself crazy and never really end a review because i will be trying powercords 24/7)
- different outlets
- different fuses on the circuit breaker
-etc
-etc
-etc
-etc
However, please know that i simply CAN’T also go through that because that also becomes a trial by itself. That becomes an entire new journey which i haven’t really done. If i were to now use this stand, that stand, the other fuse, this powercord, the other powercord, then when does it end?
i can’t sustain that "tweaking " aspect.
Do i think that putting the pass labs xs300s on the floor just like the momentums would have had a different outcome on my findings? probably not.
I want to pull a product out of the box, give it ample warm-up time and then put it through its paces. Maybe it is my fault for not being clearer, but i won’t be embarking on tweaking other than maybe a power cord change (Nordost Odin 1) or XLR and that is about it. I am essentially taking the car the way it comes from the factory and taking it to the track. I won’t be putting on slicks, suspension, exhaust, supercharger, etc in order to see how fast it can go. That is for the person that has the time and money to do so. I will continue to give you the raw results and it is for you all to decide if YOU want to embark on the expensive tweaking journey if you decide to buy any of these components in the future.
I am simply reporting on the "raw" potential of a component. Let’s face it, how many times have you all read a review and did not even know if the amplifier reviewed was also sitting on the floor? did they always mention they did a fuse swap? no right? a different outlet? so for all we know they are doing the same thing i am doing here and we don’t even know, but i am just being open about it which is something that can’t be said about many magazine reviews. A lot of these tweaks are left unknown.
So going forward, remember, i am reporting on RAW potential. At the end of the day, at turd is a turd even if you polish it right? I have not seen an amplifier that went from being garbage to being an world class amp just by doing a fuse change and a power cord swap. You should be able to quickly detect if something is indeed special and this feeling is exactly what will make you feel the need to go the extra mile by refining it using tweaks.
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Well I think you hit the exact sweetspot with the Pass/Dag video in terms of content and detail. Best way I can describe is it seemed like a compilation of your posts on this thread - raw as you say - which will be what garners support.
My opinion but playing music is not needed. It’ll never sound decent and then people will just quibble about it. Plus it’d be boring.
People either will decide whether they trust your opinion or not. Most reading here already do. If they don’t trust what you’re saying, they won’t take your advice, and that’s fine. But playing music that won’t come through quality wise isn’t going to change their minds. They’ll just find a new thing to bitch about.
You hit it right here with this video. Giving your honest opinion on two pieces. It won’t match everyone’s, but that’s okay. Just like the 180 pages of this thread. Bubbly personality not needed - just the emotion that came through in 4th video of you doing what you love - comparing high level equipment- that's all you need |
Actually, WC, equipment stands and racks, do have an enormous effect on the sq of gear, and I can pretty much guarantee, anyone owning the level of amps you own, and are reviewing, will not have them on the floor. I also want to interject, that throughout the video ( well done, btw ), I heard some descriptive words of yours that were contradictory between both amplifiers. The bottom line, however, was, that you preferred the Pass. And, the most famous statement of yours, which you have said 100s of times......" I can easily live with this, and just allow the music to flow, and be happy ". Well, this has not been true, yet, nor will it ever be. It is part of the sickness you have ( lol ), and the fact, it is still not about the music, but the equipment, and the entertaining journey, you and your followers, are on. I also feel, music playing, will not matter, so, leave it as it is. Continue to enjoy, your journey. Always, MrD. |
WC,
I agree that this was an absolutely terrific review, and I appreciated your honesty and the journey you took us on. I think adding music would actually take away from this raw discussion on the two amps, so I like it as is. As you mentioned, you could always do a separate video with music. Plus, if you had music on this review, you might have a few pages of folks complaining or praising your music choices, it's too loud or too soft, etc, etc.
Much appreciated and thanks for the privilege,
Dave
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@kren
@thezaks
@mrdecibel
Thanks for your comments above ! |
Very nice review WCSS.
In the future I would like some A/B footage of both amps, /pieces of equipment playing same pieces of music. Maybe 2 to 3, 30-45 second spots that highlight the differences you speak about. |
The Pass XS300 are a muscle car, plain americain. Big block engine, old tech, heavy.
The Dag Momentums are a Porsche. Lates tech, smaller minimalist package. Like Ayre audio. No feedback design.
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Actually WC a good amp stand has a profound effect on the sound vs a amp sitting on the carpet. In your case the Pass had an advantage.
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Now that I think of it, the powercords on the momentums are better than the spaghetti - like powercords I had on the xs300. I believe the PCs I used on the pass labs are as thick as an Ethernet cable. Not kidding either. |
Yes, amp stands and many other tweaks have profound effects on the sound, but they are unlikely to change the basic character of amps. Your preference for one amp over another is unlikely to change. As WC just implied, the thin power cord on the Pass didn't take away from its muscle character, the way he described in the video.
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Overall very nice first effort WCSS.
Bravo! 👏👏👏 |
Please if you want to use the medium of video, use some visual information to keep the interest. Make it an interview so that the nonverbal aspects are conveyed and the questions are guided by a storyline. Get a camera person to make and select the shots. Otherwise, a podcast is equally effective. |
Has anybody here compared the bnc digital output to an USB output from a dac ?
Tonight I randomly decided to go out bnc from my aurender and into the bnc input on my dcs vivaldi and I was just listening to random music as I was typing on my laptop and well I got caught in the music for no reason ... Mind you, I wasn’t trying to compare anything but there was this cool feeling with the music that for some reason I don’t remember feeling when using USB ? Thoughts ?? |
Do you mean USB input vs BNC input?... to the DAC from your source. You are using analog out from the dac to the pre or amps right ?
I have usually found the SPDIF( whether it be BNC/Optical or Coaxial) to be better sounding than the USB in most cases.
It usually depends on how well the Asynchronous implementation of the USB is done, which is the use of the clock in the DAC not the clock from the source to remove jitter
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that is correct. For some reason, i am finding the BNC connection a little more musical than USB. However, i don't know if it is just that i may not like the tonality of my USB cable as much and things could be totally different if i used a different USB cable. Right now, i will investigate a little further throughout the remainder of the week. |
Did I just heard ( in the video) the Neoliths were rolled off speakers ?....
I don’t remember WC writing about that important flaw when he had them. It is like MAJOR.
Like I said before , we really have to wait the gear is long gone sold to learn the flaws of it. My guess is in a year or so, when the Alexia 1 has been replaced and is long gone and sold, we will know they were kind of loose bass wise... 😉 |
FYI.... a pair of Pass XS 300 listed here, for 49K, if anyone is interested. The ad states, to be from a Pass dealer, purchased for his own use. Also, some claims in the ad, that tighter tolerance components were used, specifically, for this particular pair. Could be verified, I suppose, with obtaining the serial numbers on these, from the seller, and contacting Nelson, and his team. |
@mrdecibel
yep, that’s a great deal for someone. Don’t worry about warranty with Pass Labs. You can buy with your eyes closed. They dont give a DAMN how old a product is because they don’t believe in their components failing and often times they fix components FOR FREE even if they are out of warranty. Amazing company in terms of customer service.
Also, I remember Reno Hifi wanting around $63,000 for a pair... However, let’s be honest here: Most people don’t have the budget to buy that amp even at the $49k price point. It is like selling a Ferrari to someone who lives in a $150k apartment. This is why it is amusing to me that some people think i am marketing my stuff so i can sell it... yea... let me tell ya, there are tons of people running to the bank to buy my pass labs xs300s or even the momentum m400s... most have that kind of cash laying around under the mattress.. funny funny though when an individual or individuals here think that way though, it really makes me crack up and laugh hard.
If you all only knew the stupidity that some buyers have when it comes to buying ultra high end. Things like "oh that is a great price, let me ask the wife" or " the wife hates that color" or " i can’t buy it because the power cord it comes with isn’t long enough (no kidding on this one either)" or how about wasting so much time texting and going back and forth for weeks to only be told " oh i did not know it was that big so i will pass on it"... really? so you have been texting for weeks and it never occurred to you to go to the manufacturer’s website to look at the dimensions so you can measure? yea....
Let me tell those individuals who love to keep making stupid comments, there are lots of buyers for this kind of gear.. They are lined up outside my door as we speak because of the 4 videos i have posted. :)
Ever wondered, or has it even entered in your head WHY i am able to buy audio components so rapidly? because i don’t waste dealer’s time... i don’t burn their clock for weeks to not buy anything. They don’t have to give me a full presidential speech as to WHY i should be an amplifier as they do with most of you. I dont care to hear that speech. I will do find out HOW GOOD it is after we strike a deal. It is common sense men (and kids who linger here).
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....most of you......
Maybe we like to get the presidential speech, maybe it’s part of the fun of buying something expensive MOST OF US can only buy once in a lifetime. |
So sad that someone’s system sounds so bad they have to spend all their free time on these forums trolling other people’s components.
***(in between picking up their girlfriend from school of course)***
Sad, very sad... |
