My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
I support your praise of an amp that "stomps" on much more expensive amps. You have described the qualities of the Plinius in enough aspects to support this. But we still don’t know if the Titan stomps on other amps for characteristics other than soundstage and bass dynamics. You can remain silent on this until your buddies do their listening, so you don’t bias them. Then you can do a second shootout between the winner and the Plinius. If the Titan is the winner in most of the core aspects of music, then the shootout between the two relatively cheap amps--Titan and Plinius--would be useful. I am guessing the Titan will be preferred for some aspects and the Plinius for others. Make sure volume levels are matched for all A/B tests, so your Sat EVENT will be most fruitful. If you do the second shootout, you will all be up into Sun AM, or whenever you terminate the contest due to tired ears.
This beats all the audio show reporting and the New Year countdown! Maybe I am a game show host wannabee.
Titan has incredible resolution. It has very clear mids that never sounds muffled. My preliminary feeling and a SHOCKING FEELING is that the titan could have more of what the Neoliths need. Again, this is only my gut feeling right now but I won’t know until tomorrow. Stay tuned
Sure there are more detailed cables than the Dominus , but there comes a point where too much is TOO MUCH. If you can’t turn it up loud (Reference levels )and listen for extended periods before it becomes too fatiguing, then to me it ,is too much to take. Sure it is very impressive to have Huge detail, but it gets fatiguing very quickly.I’ll take Musical over hyper detail all day
AGREED. What you describe is my experience with Nordost Valhalla cables long ago. When I referred to greater detail on top with some cables vs. the Dominus, I was not talking about elevated midrange or treble levels ..... but rather resolution. And in fact the Dominus has a midrange preference which can be addicting but at a cost of resolution in this range as well as in the trebles. To move to other ICs in particular, there is a much greater presence in the silence between notes. The talents of percussionists and pianists for example, begin to show. What once sounded like a blob of singers on a stage now allows for individual distinctions of sound and stage placement. This is what I meant by detail when I moved on from the Dominus and I should have instead used the word, resolution ..... and clarity.
As for being able to play at louder volumes, I can do this like I did before with the Dominus-loaded system for hours, but because of the greater refinements, I don't need to play as loud to get out the content of the performance like I did previously.
You can make a judgment about the sonic character of preamps by using any decent source, such as phono system, or even a plain CD player playing good recordings.
Ummmmm, No! If the "decent" source is dimensionally flat, has poor frequency extremes performance, is dynamically constricted, etc., there will never be an opportunity to hear the differences of two high performance lines stages in these most critical areas. This is one example that we often don't realize how impressive components in our system can be until we resolve a weakness elsewhere, such as that dreaded "decent" source.
A great sounding recording played on a modest phono or cheap CD system will sound better than an average sounding recording on the most expensive, prestigious equipment.
Not necessarily. There will be pros and cons in either case. It depends entirely on the exact differences between the great and average recording and the mid-fi vs. the higher performance/resolving system. It's like saying a drive along the northern California coast and redwood forest in May in a 1971 For Pinto running on 3 cylinders would be preferred over a drive through a snow blizzard in North Dakota in January in a 911/4s. Neither of these scenarios to the vacationer or serious car enthusiast would be of any interest any more than your two scenarios above would be to an audiophile.
jafox, Agree with much of your above 2 posts, especially the 8:13. Of course, when I said, a "decent" source, I meant that it has no limitations in freq response, dynamics, etc. Otherwise, it would be the weak link and everything would sound mediocre using the relatively poor source. Conversely, a great, clean recording through the car radio sounds better than a murky recording through a good system.
In 8:13, you make 2 very important points. First, I've not heard the Dominus, but components I know with midrange preference because of comparative HF rolloff show loss of resolution in the midrange and HF. This is because HF contain harmonics of the midrange fundamental, so any HF rolloff will subtract these harmonics which are part of the tone of the instrument or voice, therefore less total information revealed, such as the precision of the percussionist. Second and even more important, because of greater resolution, you get the total content of the music at a lower volume level than needed with a less resolving component. If you need to turn the volume up to loud unnatural levels to get more out of the music, that tells you that the component is not as revealing. This is another form of distortion because louder than natural is not true to life (this is an axiomatic truth). You expressed this very well--grey9hound, take note.
WC, Thanks for spilling some of the beans about the great resolution of the Titan. How are the highs? Well, I guess you will have to do a single blinded test with your buddies, since only you will know which amp is being played, unless your wife does the switching so that you can be blinded also. I should further clarify what I mean by a great soundstage from an accurate amp. Say the recording stage is 50 feet deep and there are 10 rows of musicians from front to back. The accurate amp will reveal the exact 10 layers of depth which is 50 feet. If an amp makes it sound like 300 feet depth, that is not accurate or true to life, and each of the 10 layers will sound fuzzy and bloated. (This is like magnifying any picture--it is blurry, so you enjoy the picture more at its smaller size. I know you like big screens for movies, but that works only if the resolution is greater for the bigger screen.) You might even hear only 5 layers, with several layers being amorphously gelled together. Big depth of field, but what good is that if everything is fuzzy? So hopefully the Titan's great resolution is letting you hear more layers each of which are precisely focused with great clarity, not blurred and magnified. ,
In my set-up the 5Se has imaging in spades, wide, deep, three dimensional and highly focused that draws you into the musical performance. The lower octaves of the vocal band are fully reproduced. The image was also layered allowing you to hear the front to back and side to side space between performers and instruments clearly. Replacing the ARC with the Luxman produced a smaller image in all respects. Vocals sounded thinner, the sense of space and layering were far less evident. Violin for example sounded textured and palpable on the ARC and far less so on the Luxman. The Luxman had better resolve of the lower bass and that was the only area that it bested the 5SE. The group of listeners ranged from very experienced to little experience listening to music and when asked which pre. was better the votes were unanimous and when asked my most important criteria - which one draws you into the music the ARC was also the clear winner. Now this is the critical footnote. The Luxman or the ARC may be the better preamp in ANY given system. In mine it is clearly the ARC. In a different set-up, it may be the Luxman. That's the synergy of the cast of characters in any system. The Reference 40 had similar characteristics to the 5SE. Notable differences were the lower bass had much better resolve. Images were far more three dimensional and more focused. The decay of notes to the lowest audible levels of the performance was also easily followed where the 5Se masked those qualities. Just better in all respects. I should also add that the 5SE and the REF 40 had Synergistic Research fuses installed otherwise they were stock.
gtaphile Much Thanks! for sharing. I concur- the ARC Ref5SE is very special at its price-point on the demo/used market. How much does the Ref10/Reference 40 cost in comparison? Happy Listening!
Let’s remember one thing: audio research has always been awesome with many different amplifiers. In my opinion, the Luxman 900u preamp is made for the 900u amp. The one amp that sounded amazing with the 900u preamp was the Rowland 925s. I still think there’s no better preamp than the ref10. I say it not only because of what it does, but because it works amazingly with many different amps. I said it before, I think only the replacement of the ref10 will be able to unseat my ref10. When I first heard it in my system, it took SECONDS for me to know i was listening to something special. Every other preamp I’ve heard sounds smaller, soundstage Is collapsed and just doesn’t engage you. Even if some of you might call it “euphonic”, it is one hell of an euphonic experience let me tell you.
ref10 avg street price is around $15,000 but expect that to go up to about $17k now that the retail price went up. Audio research can’t come up with a better preamp.
Viber6 ... Take Note You said you like to hear upfront .. Live... presentation. Reference level loudness would be just that. It is not un-natural. Now you seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth. I did not and do not say that you HAve to turn it up loud . I said it CAN be turned up loud and give a "LIVE" presentation... without fatigue. Still sounds great at medium levels. Of course everything is system dependent
grey9hound, Agreed. But live classical music and a lot of jazz (I don't know about rock) has levels of 20-100 dB, mostly 30-90. With electronics with enough HF, those very soft sounds will have enough resolution, and as jafox said, the music can be more satisfying at lower volumes than are needed if electronics are less resolved, which is accompanied by HF rolloff. Other people describe the "pop" of an amp, which is another way of referring to more HF transients. In your case, you have said that you like to crank your music loud, probably louder than I would listen to. This is because your electronics are rolled off in HF, compared to mine. I are saying that if your electronics had more HF balance with more resolution, you could be satisfied with reasonably loud levels a few dB lower than you currently listen at. This is true of even some tube electronics, as I experienced with my Theta preamp when I got better spec tubes from Roger Modjeski. Resolution was improved over the wide band of freq, and HF were more extended.
Viber6 You are just wrong.... period . I never said that Ii like to crank my music That is not the way I listen . Well .. maybe occasionally. I said that you CAN with the Purist Audio Dominus cable ... without fatigue.. My electronics are NOT rolled off. Please stop telling people how their system and equipment sounds , when you haven’t heard their system or equipment. Also can you explain what better spec tubes means .They all have a set of voltages and currents that they operate within.Some may operate towards one end of the spec or toward the middle . some offer lower gain .. at the expense of higher plate current .. etc. Way too many operating parameters for a vacuum tube . i guess it depends on what you want from the tube. Lower Microphonics is always preferred . Is this what you mean ?
Ok guys, the amplifiers have been on since yesterday morning. The dac and preamp are on idling as we speak until the shootout starts at 3pm. No excuses of anything not being warm enough or ready to go.
Do you have an example of a preamp that meets your criteria "Someone can get that same euphonic and large soundstage for a lot less than what ARC ask for it"
My experience is also that a preamp provides the attack, dynamics, pace and decay to the line level signal that is missing when a preamp is removed.
Do you have an example of a situation where one "will loose micro details adding it in any chain system, as opposed to a straight connection the Lampi Pacific offers". presuming that you mean any quality DAC.
i Don’t believe what techno has been preaching actually exists. I just think he thinks there must be something like what he describes but we are all still hearing crickets.
My experience is also that a preamp provides the attack, dynamics, pace and decay to the line level signal that is missing when a preamp is removed.
+1 gtaphile My experience echoes this as well. I find the line stage to be the most important link in the chain...because so few models excel here. Lots and lots of great amplifiers, speakers, sources, cables, etc., but so few GREAT line stages out there.
+1 i still can’t find a dac that can unseat a top end preamp. Of course if you are using a 2,000 preamp and your dac is 30k, you might want to use your dac as a preamp but if you have a killer preamp, it won’t be easy to find a dac that can beat it. The preamp just digs deeper into the incoming signal and amplifies it even more. It’s like you using your naked eye to look at a diamond and then you put a magnifying glass on and look at the diamond again. You’ll notice far more details with the magnifying glass that the naked eye can’t capture.
To add to the foregoing comments about the benefits a preamp can provide, without a separate preamp some DACs will not be able to drive some power amps to full power.
The Lampi Pacific is a case in point, when paired with some of the power amps that have been mentioned. It has a specified maximum output voltage of "6 V pp" (i.e., 6 volts peak-to-peak), which is 2.12 volts based on the usual "RMS" (root mean square) way of defining such things. The Pass XS300 that has been discussed, like most Pass amps, has a specified gain of 26 db. While the XS300 is capable of 300 watts into 8 ohms and 600 watts into 4 ohms, a gain of 26 db applied to an input of 2.12 volts means that the Pacific DAC would not be able to drive the XS300 to more than 225 watts and 450 watts, respectively, into those impedances. And that would be with the volume control at max, and with a recording whose peaks reach very close to "full scale," i.e., to the maximum possible digital value. Some recordings are engineered such that they fall several db short of doing that, which would mean that more than half of the XS300’s power capability could not be utilized with those recordings, even with the volume control at max, if it were directly driven by the Pacific.
Knowing the Ref6 has had pot reliability problems, I would not touch it at retail price. Lazy and greedy engineers, a dac module should have been included. If McIntosh and Classe can do it, so can ARC. Talk about pushing the insult...
@Techno, why would you want to put a DAC in a high end preamp? That’s the one technology that needs to be upgraded over the years and somewhat depreciates quicker. Sure, you could go with the approach of the McIntosh integrateds by adding in an upgradeable DAC but who knows if they will even support it down the road. Only reason to really upgrade a pure preamp (no DAC) is for the sound preference not functionality.
I would not want to make an absolute statement about the benefit or disadvantage of eliminating the linestage from the audio chain.... It all depends on the DAC, the linestage, the ICs, the power chords, and ultimately... The tone concept of the listener.
So, I would not say that a linestage is always an audible requirement, nor would I assert that one particular DAC is THE ONLY DAC for which a linestage is not beneficial.
For instance, I have sold my beloved Rowland Criterion two-chassis linestage a couple years ago, and since then have been happily driving the M925 amps directly from the Roland Aeris DAC + PSU. I feel no reduction of authority, attenuation of transients, dampening of harmonics, flattening of sound stage, reduction of resolution, or increase of intermodulation... On the contrary.
On the other hand, the original presence of the linestage in the chain did yield an overall presentation which was just very slightly softer, and perhaps euphonic, which for many users might have been preferable... So, as usual, it all depends.
Besides, in the future, I might very well decide to reinsert a linestage.... One never knows what the future brings.
Guidocorona makes the most important point that the line stage makes things softer, attenuates transients, reduces resolution, all of which means euphonic, which confirms my experience. It doesn't matter what the source is. I am glad to hear WC's honesty that he loves the ref10 and that it is "one hell of a euphonic experience." As almarg said, the benefit of the additional line stage is getting more gain which is needed for some recordings. The user is willing to accept some euphonics in return for the extra gain. A great line stage will have minimal euphonics so the benefits of the extra gain outweigh the minimal dose of euphonics. But with many recordings, the extra gain is not needed, and then you can hear the superiority of the passive stage with volume control, such as mrdecibel's Luminous or the Music First that I heard. This superiority is in the areas of purity, clarity, overall information retrieval without harshness.
grey9hound, I don't remember the details of Modjeski's tubes I used many years ago. He found variability in tube production, so he matched tubes for consistency in certain parameters and had several grades. Any device, whether transistor, tube, resistor, cap is made with tolerances aka variability. The highest grade was the most expensive in accordance with the rarer consistency of the specs and tighter tolerances. I got his top grade, which greatly improved the clarity compared to the stock tubes in that Theta preamp. Microphonics is a good guess. The best SS manufacturers do the costly weeding out of unmatched transistors, the analogous thing. This is a major reason why I have found a few low power amps to have greater clarity than their high power siblings, because high power amps need more transistors which means more opportunity for additive distortion.
In your case, you have said that you like to crank your music loud, probably louder than I would listen to. This is because your electronics are rolled off in HF, compared to mine. I are saying that if your electronics had more HF balance with more resolution, you could be satisfied with reasonably loud levels a few dB lower than you currently listen at.
This is all too general. Whether in the past or with my current system, I often played music LOUD simply because it sounded awesome. I wanted that extra bass presence in the room, or I just couldn't get enough of other instruments or musicians for a specific album or track. If there were times I was looking to compensate for a system's shortcomings, it was due to mediocre dynamic contrasts or some valley's in tonality, typically the lower mids or upper mids. Increasing the volume for added highs will never accomplish anything as the increased level in the rest of the band will mask anything one was looking to achieve.
Guidocorona makes the most important point that the line stage makes things softer, attenuates transients, reduces resolution, all of which means euphonic, which confirms my experience.
Another general statement very flawed. Guido's comments are specific to the Rowland products he was using. The result showed the shortcomings of that line stage, extra IC, PC. My experience has shown very different results.
jafox . I agree wholeheartedly . I could play it loud because it was Awesome Sounding .. just as you stated..It had nothing to do with anything lacking. . . There are very few cables that can play at those levels,with the clarity coherence and tonal balance of the Dominus. It is the quietest cable that I have ever used ....Oh and BTW, It... hands down... has the most detailed and textured bass from any cable that I have ever heard. That is why I said that the Dominus cable is my all time favorite . It is very impressive.
Ok guys, the shoot out has ended. We listened to several songs through the titan at massive volume levels and it did not disappoint. The soundstage was immersive, dynamic, excellent bass control, zero compression, great highs (more on them later) awesome mids and just everything was there for me. Everyone was very impressed with this amp using the ref10 as a preamp. We then moved on to the block audios and we repeated the same songs. The immediate response from people was “no contest this is far superior, incredible liquidity, more clarity, better highs, Fuller sound”. I think everyone here unanimously chose the block audios over the titan. The blocks just exposed the superior highs it possesses and although everyone was content with the highs of the titan, the blocks just showed you how much better things can get. Result: first win for the block audios.
Soon after that shootout we started to do the dac vs ref10 through the block audios. We started with silver 7 rca cables to connect the dac with. The ref 10 easily bested the dac but later I decided to use the platinum 8 rca and try again. The immediate impression was “holy cow” the dac is now beating the ref10. We used a couple of songs and everyone chose the dac over the ref10 when using the platinum rca on the dac. However, my argument was (still is) that the dac doesn’t really always best the ref10. There are songs where the dac simply can’t give you enough volume and the ref10 can. There are also situations where the song isn’t well recorded and the ref10 makes the song pleasurable to listen to and the dac won’t do that. Sure, some can say “I prefer the dac because it’s true to the source or the recording etc etc” but the truth is that this is bs. NOBODY wants for any song to sound like poop through their expensive rig. We all want for things to sound their best. Some say the ref10 is euphonic some others can say the dac is True to the source. However, know that the dac WILL NOT ALWAYS work well with amplifiers. You have a much more difficult job finding a set of amps that work well with the dac. This is not really the case with the ref10. It will be more compatible with more amplifiers than the dac will. The ref10 allows you to keep switching amplifiers and sources while keeping things working find but with the dac you have less opportunity to try more amplifiers because it may not have enough juice to make some amplifier sing. i love the larger soundstage and fullness of the ref10. Anyhow, towards the end I ended up showing my friends songs where the ref10 outshines the dac and after they heard them they agreed with my point: the ref10 will forgive you far more and present you with more opportunity to enjoy a broader range of music even if it’s not well recorded.
""Guido’s comments are specific to the Rowland products he was using. The result showed the shortcomings of that line stage, extra IC, PC. My experience has shown very different results."
Not quite.... I would not want to venture that there were problems in the preamp that I had.... There is really no right and no wrong in having or not having a linestage.... There are so many variables involved that it is not even funny.... Eventually, the only thing that matters is the preference of the individual user for the particular setup, in the particular room, for the particular music selection.
I much prefer to avoid absolutes or commenting on equipment that I have not used. It is much more interesting to report and explain our own experiences in detail... Inevitably they will differ in perception, tone concept, and music preferences... Sometimes subtly different, and sometimes radically diverging. <span lang="fr">Vive la difference!!!!</span>
Sounds like it was a fun and educational get together.
Interesting that though you really liked the Titans that after a full warm up of both amps you are back to the Blocks as your choice. And you found many others hearing the same too.
@jafox appreciate your comments.
It would be appreciated if the contentious dominance of some posters here would be ratcheted down. The conversation is suffering from all the postulating. WC, digging on YOUR thread.
@guidocorona "There is really no right and no wrong in having or not having a linestage.... There are so many variables involved that it is not even funny.... Eventually, the only thing that matters is the preference of the individual user for the particular setup, in the particular room, for the particular music selection." (Fully agreed) I refer to this as system synergy and it is always arrived at by trial and error, not postulation.
We finally all agree that if the dac has enough gain to drive the amps, it can sound better than with an ARC pre in the chain.
And we also agree that with a nice Ref6 or Ref10 in the chain, someone can be sure to have enough gain to play anything ( plus additional inputs) And if the euphonics that it brings makes the owner happy plus the pride of ownership, so be it. Amen.
I’m glad some of you found my findings interesting. In my current journey, I simply can’t see how I can sell my ref10 and use the dac as a preamp. Why? Because I go through a lot of amps and I’m sure there will be amps that I won’t be able to fully test with just this dac. I have to use about 95% of the dacs volume in order to compete with the ref10 at only half the volume....
The Coincident Line Stage Mk II will be a better more truer to the source preamp than the Ref 10 at a fraction of the cost. Unlike the Audio research it uses point to point wiring not circuit boards uses true transformer based volume control and the most linear signal tubes ever created 101 dht’s. However the stock tubes were replaced with Psvane we replicas. In comparison the Audio research sounded as if it had a sock pulled over it. The CLS has incredible transparency prat and organic sound.
WC, Enjoyed the synopsis of the amplifier testing. The Titan may have lost the Gold Medal. And the Block Audio Monos sure deserve it being Class A for 200 watts. But it must be cool to have the Titan around for all out blasting sessions at high decibels. Not sure how much you paid for the Titan, but if it was relatively inexpensive, it should be a keeper for the times when supercharged power is what is on the menu. Even if the Lampizator had enough gain.... there is what you have said about the ARC Ref 10 making a majority of songs sound better. I'm sure purists will say different till they are blue in the face, but there is no substitute for a proper preamplifier. Also having XLRs going into the amplifier does have it's advantages. Usually the noise floor is lower, and the detail is greater with XLR connections. Anyway, it looks like you have one heck of a true SOTA system going on, and I think the Neoliths blow away the MOST speakers at the same price point. Me, being a Martin Logan fanboy my whole adult life, am very pleased that you are taking this journey with my favorite speaker, regardless of price. Thanks bro.
My pleasure bigddesign. indeed today we hit peaks of 108 dbs with the logans and the titan. I wish those people who don’t believe there’s an electrostatic that can play loud with dynamics could have been here. I would have given them the remote control and my iPad and let them blast their ears off with any decibel level they choose while the back of their head vibrates against the chair. Oh before I forget, that was 108 dB without any sort of compression or lack of slam. First time I get to hear my neoltihs play so loud that I just made me realize (as what one friend said here) where the hell do I go from these speakers? There isn’t really anywhere else I could do. If had bought the magico m3, I would have probably been told today “can you turn up the bass? Can you turn the treble down a little when you crank it up? “
Witn the Neoliths: if you love bass and fullness, check. if you love huge sound, check. if you love mids, check. If you love sound that comes behind your head, check. That said, this is NOT THE SPEAKER for those of you who complain about everything. If you are the type that will say “ nah that 80 inch oled is too big for my room or nah I bought the 6 cylinder camaro because the zl1 camaro eats too much gas or nah I chose to marry the raggedy looking girl because the hot one requires me to pay for her hair and nails and pretty outfits for her to look hot for me all the time, etc etc “ then DO NOT GET THE NEOLITH. It’s not a speaker for the whiners or those of you still wearing diapers.
WC, We never really knew which cables were used in which positions during this testing . We did get that the Platinum 8 were used with the Lampizator when being used as a pre-amp, but other than that we don’t know the speaker cables or what was feeding the Lampi (source and cable) When the REf10 was in the loop , which cables out of the Lampi, into REF10, then which cables to the amps from the Ref 10 ? Analog in and analog out on the REF10. that is 2 sets of cables just into and out of the Ref 10.... right ? You have a lot of variables due to cabling requirements....., unless i missed something.
Speaker cables: wireworld platinum 7 on the highs and wireworld silver 8 on the lows (Both are the same length) Balanced cables coming from the preamp are wireworld silver 8. Usb cable is platinum 7. Powercords on the blocks arre 10 dollar stock power cords and the powercord on the dac is the silver 7. Powercord on the preamp is the shunyata sigma nr.
Thanks WC. My take away is that it is a lengthy exercise to find a great preamp for one's system and it is ecliptic journey to build a system where one can remove the preamp.
whitecamaross OP1,386 posts01-10-2019 9:56pmSo right now, I went back to the block audios and they sound great but they don’t seem to wow me as the titan fidelity was doing earlier today. However, they have been unplugged for over a day and I remember when I first got them I wasn’t impressed. I became impressed until the next day. They sounded totally different so tomorrow night might be a great showdown as well as Saturday. Both amps will be fully warm Saturday afternoon before the shoot out. I want both to at least be idling for a full day. The preamp and dac will be on 3 hours before the shootout begins. My buddies will jot down their impressions on paper and each person will listen alone without anyone else in the room so that nobody is biased. Once each person listens to about 3 songs through each amp (their own selection) then the next person will go inside and do the same until we are all done. I will then collect their notes and see what each person decided and their opinion on the amplifiers. I will be sure to post what each one of them wrote down on paper. .
....any notes taken by anybody . How did you keep score ? . ..Still no songlists...curious I am curious as to some of their adjectives used to describe things . Any pics of the dudes with their jaws hitting the floor ? I am a little surprised that everyone was in agreement on what they liked . That is curious.. look at your first sentence in the above quote. BUT........Of course, the Block Audio amps......have to win... they cost more ...Right
A lot of these shootouts between amps, should they be conducted blindly with same sound level and cables, would result in no clear winner most of the time. Not saying it all sound the same, sure some are a little clearer, larger, more dynamic, etc.
WC, my next move should be a change of speakers as they are the weak link in my rig right now. The dac will have to wait. ( my lastest move beiing the upgrade of the power cable on the Lux M900u to a Shunyata Alpha NR)
Your new years resolution was to grow thick skin. I sure hope it works. If I was the OP in this thread I would be having serious considerations of closing it. What seems to have been an audio journey of discovery with the gracious act of communal sharing has unfortunately attracted too many trolls. Why can't some of you just read the man's posts and personal experience with out questioning his hearing, his motives, his judgements. and the enjoyment of his equipment?? Just to let you know some of us here have enjoyed following your crusade without judgement and wish you continued luck.
WC, Thanks for sharing. I think the ref 6 will give you the volume you need, plus a little of the euphonics that you like, with either the Lampi or Lux DAC. It will give more precision than the ref 10, according to your descriptions, and still give pleasure to bad recordings. Ref 6 should be closer than ref 10 to the Goldilocks happy medium between the extremes of ruthlessness and muddy euphonics. The Neo is warmer than the Magico you liked, so you can benefit from swinging a little more to the ruthless extreme than you would for the Magico, for the goal of getting more clarity from many recordings. Despite my preference for the ruthless type of sound, I don't think of it as ruthless. Rather, I can take any recording, get the most clarity from it and then forgive the occasional flawed moments. For example, I have an early digital 1987 recording of a popular piece which is crystal clear/exciting, but there are a few spurts of harsh digititis. I prefer this recording to other smooth analog recordings of this piece which put me to sleep from the sonic point of view.
WC, I am curious how you had all the amplifiers powered on for over a day after your past comments of limited circuits. Did you run extension cords to other rooms to run these on other circuits or have you recently added more 20A circuits to your music room?
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