My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
I'm curious as well about the ATI AT5X... class d amps as well. I'm hearing great things about them. The ATI AT54X... amps are rated for 500 watts/channel, while the AT52X... amps are 200 watts/channel. I'm thinking about trying an ATA AT543... to see how it does for the front three channels of my HT. Dave |
As far as how it sounds for home theater, i will be very honest here and say that IF YOU ARE MORE HOME THEATER than music, do yourself a favor and buy class d amps. They simply do the job really well with plenty of power and dynamics and for very little money with no heat. The only thing that i warn you all about is that class d technology changes rapidly and the resale value really gets hurt. For example, if you were to buy a pass labs amp for your home theater instead of a class d amp, you have to accommodate for its size, heat production, weight, etc. It can be painful, but when it is time to part ways with it, you will certainly get at least half of the money you invested in pass labs (with a few exceptions of course), but with class d things are different. You buy a class d amp today and in 6 months there is a new class d module and now your amps lose terrible value. Buying class d amps is no different than buying a computer. Go to best buy today and buy a 3,000 dollar machine and then go back to best buy in 6 months and now your 3,000 laptop is worth much less because there is a better computer than yours that costs even less. Again, class d changes too rapidly and that is why i choose to stick with solid state and tube amps. Those technologies really don't change much so there will always be a buyer for solid state and tube amps. |
Update on my GS150: i have been listening to this amp for about 2 hours today and i can't put my finger on it, but i find it somewhat "bright" sounding. It almost makes you not able to crank up the music because of the brightness. That said, if listening a low volumes is something that someone would do all the time then this amp would reward you. However, certain songs seem to be a little too sparkly and some other songs sound fine. For example, i played some reggae to gauge the bass and low end punch and it sounded pretty good. Nothing really sounded bright, but when i play some Lynyrd Skynyrd, some songs can sound a bit shouty and not too pleasant. Again, these are my initial impressions so maybe things change with time. |
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GS150 update: i can’t believe how loud this amp will play. I can't even dare to crank it up as loud as it will go because it is already too loud. To those of you who think 150 watts isn’t enough, you may want to rethink that. I can’t even go past 30 on the volume on my audio research reference 6 preamp because it is scary loud. |
Update on my GS150: i have been listening to this amp for about 2 hours today and i can't put my finger on it, but i find it somewhat "bright" sounding. It almost makes you not able to crank up the music because of the brightness.Do me a favor Whitecamaross and tell me what your source and preamp are and a brief description of your listening room? If you've listed elsewhere in this long thread, I've missed it. Do you have a dedicated two channel room with no flat panel and instead (optimally) a semi-absorbent panel between your speakers on the front wall? With my three sources and my new Ref 6 and Ref 150se I am having no trouble with brightness. Two of my sources are turntables and my digital is an Aurender N100H into an Abbingdon Music Research DP777. I have the uppermost Wireworld USB (Starlight Platinum or something like that-came in quite the fancy aluminum case) into an UpTone Regen with separate linear power supply. I don't claim to be the expert of experts as to component matching but tell me your source, preamp and room description with cabling and I can make an educated guess as to why you're hearing brightness. ARC gear in general ever so slightly attenuates brightness, not the other way around, so something does not make sense. |
Sources are the Rerence Gamut CD Player, Aurender N100H going into a Oppo 205 player. I also have a Sony HAP network player. i don't have a dedicated room, but i have a fairly large living room. I sit 13 feet away from my speakers and the are about 9 feet apart. That said, i just plugged the GS150 into the outlet directly. I also might need to perhaps begin to play with the toe in of my Cremonese to see if that helps a little with the highs. |
Yes, the GS150 should be plugged directly into the wall. Still unclear on the preamp-are you running preamp-less? Are you running the GamuT as a cdp or are you using the digital out into the Oppo or some other dac? I realize that you've had many other amps in the same system but something has to account for the perceived brightness other than the GS150. I am sorry to sound critical, but I think you could do much better in terms of your digital front ends though I certainly think the N100H is great- just the rest.... The GS150 also greatly benefits from a Shunyata HC 20A PC and I saw that you're presently stuck with the stock cord. I am using the stock cord too right now but hope to get my hands on the Shunyata soon. |
I am thinking the same thing. i have been reading different forums on audio research tube amps as a whole and some say 100 hours break in, others say 200 hrs etc. My thing is that you also need to realize that it could also be your ears getting used to the sound and not necessarily the amp changing sound. That said, i am going to just let it play and play and i am also going to be bringing my mcintosh c50 preamp which is solid state and see what happens to the sound as a whole. Just to see if maybe the amp would benefit from a solid state preamp in order to smooth things out a little. Another preamp i am almost tempted to buy is the Esoteric C1, but it is quite a big investment without knowing what will happen to the sound. |
Ok guys. I am going to running a very interesting experiment in about 10 days or so. I purchased a monster krell 403e and since krell stated in the manual that tube preamps arent recommended due to the dc current tubes pass, damage to speakers can occur with krell amps due to krells own design. That said, I decided to bring a high quality solid state preamp for the krell. I just ordered the Jeff Rowland Capri s2 which is supposed to be spectacular. The goal here will be to do a shoot out of all tubes vs all solid state. Basically an audio research ref6 and gs150 amp versus a krell 403e with a Jeff Rowland preamp and see what combination will bring the best out of my speakers. Of course, the audio research gs150 still needs to be broken in so I will continue doing so. As many of you know, the krell 403e is dan agostinos design before he left krell and I’ve heard from several people that it actually is a much better amo than the current classic series amp from the agostino line. In other words, that amp is no joke. |
whitecamaross I am going to running a very interesting experiment in about 10 days or so. I purchased a monster krell 403e and since krell stated in the manual that tube preamps arent recommended due to the dc current tubes pass ...It isn't clear what you're trying to say here, because only a severely defective audio component passes DC. |
My point exactly. Break in is important and I have no plans of selling my arc gear anytime soon. Although I still find it a tad bright, it still sounds pretty amazing. Also, one thing that needs to be understood is that my mission here is to try and report to you all and disclose my battles and opinions about what I think about each component that sits on my floor. I'm not planing to marry any of this. I don't keep anything forever. The only component that sat in my living room the longest was the Martin Logan renaissance. Más much as I loved them, it was time to try something else. I'm clear on the fact that in order for me to improve upon my speakers it would take a lot more money and even then I'd have to begin to think about room treatments, etc. You all should just take my journey and write down my thoughts about a particular component you may be interested in and that I've already reviewed. Think of my thread as another source of information besides the typical lies of magazines that always claim every component is amazing. |
Hi Whitecamaross, the Rowland Capri S2 is a wonderful linestage... With proper break-in, it is incredibly dimensional, resolving, with just a hint of warmth... Break-in being the operative word. Capri S2, like other Rowland linestages that I am familiar with, take upwards of 600 hours of operating on actual signals to complete the major portion of breakin... With about 20% further breakin to complete over a total of about 1K hours since first sound. During the first half of break-in you are bound to exprience performance fluctuation.... One day sweet, and perhaps the next day harsh/dark/flat.... Observing this evolving behavior will be fascinating, Yet, venturing conclusions prior to complete break-in tends to be premature and prone to inaccuracies. Capri draws approximately 6W in class A. The device is sensitive to power cords... Avoid certain PCs especially designed for high power amps, as they might have some capacitance that might make Capri S2 caramelize the tone and microdynamics. Shunyata Alpha and Cardas Clear should work well. Regards, Guido
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Hi Guido, thanks for the feedback. It had read exactly what you described, but with jeff rowland 925 monos. With that said, i played about 10 hours of music last night on the gs150 and timer on the back says it has 19.2 hours total. That said, i just turned it on today and i find the sound "warmer" today. It feels as if someone turned down the treble a little (which is a good thing for me). Essentially 20 hours break in time so far and i now begin to ACTUALLY hear a change in sound. |
Hi Whitecamaross... Yes, you are right.. I have had the wonderful M925 monos in my system for a few years... Yes, I would say that my observations about Capri S2 break-in pattern also apply to the big M925 monos.... Somewhat elongated, though. My M925 monoblocks stabilized at about the 1500 hours mark. Amazing music they do make! I am not surprised at all by what you are experiencing on the GS-150. Seems to me that the first 500 hours of most devices I have had in my system have been rather bipolar... Thankfully all they need is more exercise... Lythium medication not needed for the component, and usually, neither for the suffering audiophrene who owns them. Regards, GUido |
Haven't read all the responses so if it's been mentioned my apologies. I think that you should see if you can get a Dartzeel NHB 108 to try in your system. By any definition it is considered one of the most musical amps ever made. Swiss build quality by a master designer. The Dartzeel's always resell when you can find one. If interested contact Jonathan Tinn at Blue Light Audio. He might have a demo and has always been great to me. Last word. In my humble opinion most people use far less juice than they think. Always remember that it takes twice the power to increase sound output by 3db. Too long winded I am but I think you'll love the Krell too. This series was great stuff. |
@whitecamaross & @4425 And to 4425s comment. I haven't heard the DartZeelstereo amp. But I did hear the mono blocks with the new preamp and Evolution Acoustics speakers. The source was a reel-to-reel tape deck playing Lines on My Face off of Frampton Comes Alive. All I can say was wow!!! I heard this at the Los Angeles Audio Show and it was one of three best systems that day. The mono's made such effortless power; they have a power meter on the front and they were making from just a few watts to over five hundred on peaks. It was really glorious. I know this is a different ballpark in terms of cost, but I would assume that the stereo amp would have a similar house sound. I kind of put it out of my mind since they are not in any realm of affordability for me. I can still hear that fine system in my head though. For reference, I really like ARC with Wilson. And I love all-Mbl systems too. |
35 hours into the gs150 and i think i will admit that this amp is transparent for sure. Some material sounds good and some other can be a bit bright at times when you crank up the volume around 90+ dbs. I am right now continuing this break in process a few hours a day. Time will tell what will happen. I also find it a tad congested at times when playing music with a ton of dynamics. After speaking to my dealer, he said it may be the preamp/amp combination. I may have to try either another amp with my ref 6 or another preamp with my gs150 and see which balance i like best. |
Hi Whitecamaross, at 35 hours into break-in, an amp is so far from its optimum performance that it is essentially impossible to tell what eventually it can do for living. Have you considered breakin in the device 24 7 using a break-in CD, or even better, a radio tuner set to some FM interstation hash? Let the amp run at low volume... DO not bother listening to it more than a couple times a week... In about a month it will start to show its character... In 2 or three weeks after that break-in will be complete and the device will show its true soul. G. |
Have you considered breakin in the device 24 7 using a break-in CD, or even better, a radio tuner set to some FM interstation hash?You must be a solid state guy! You can't do that with tube amps. They get too hot and should be shut down after 6 hours or so. A small sacrifice to pay, among others, with tube vs. solid state. There are some exceptions with certain tubes like the Nu-vista's employed by Musical Fidelity and low current pre-amp tubes but most power amp output tubes need to be shut down. |
Uck... Yes, I had forgotten the additional "suffering" of tuboholics.... Break-in calendar days is probably four times as long as solid state, and somewhat inpermanent... By the time solid state parts have stabilized have stabilized, tubes have started to sag... Nirvana is but a fleeting moment before the next tube roll... You can't win... Oh well, tuboholic audiophrenia is A Harsh Mistress *Grins!* G. amp has sta |
Nirvana is but a fleeting moment before the next tube roll... You can't win... Oh well, tuboholic audiophrenia is A Harsh Mistress *Grins!*No, I wouldn't go that far. With the Ref150se/GS150 in particular and most other tube amps in general, the tubes break in fairly quickly (within a few hours) and the rest of the amp takes about 200 hours or so, and each usage is successive without falling back as you suggest. My Ref 150se is supposed to go 3000 hours on a set of healthy KT150's so let's be conservative and assume 2000 hours. Beak in is the first 10% of the first set of tubes and there is no break in of any significance with successive tubes. This is based on my experience over 10 years time with tube amps. |
Yes, I admit it... I am poking fun at tubophrenes with my facile generalizations... I have experience with only two tube devices... ARC LS-2B hibrid linestage, and ARC REF3. LS-2B took about 800 hours to bloom and stabilize, and the single 6922 performed well for about 3K hours. ARC REF3 was a different story... Initial break-in about 500 hours. But while the 60H30 tubes lasted a good 2K hours before showing signs of sag, the 6550 in the power supply did take about 500 hours to break-in, but then at the 900 hours mark, the first audible sloppy signs of sag would creep in... So, nirvana was a relatively fleeting 400 hours per round... Not my cup of audible Heaven. G.
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Interesting question. Hmmm let me see. I would say that changing a preamp is far more of an audible change than changing amp. For example, here are 2 possible set ups with relatively efficient speakers: 1. Audio research reference 6 preamp and emotiva sa250 amp 2. Oppo 105d as preamp and a pass Labs amp 350.8 i would say that if the speakers are the same, meaning something of about 93db+, the first set up may best the second set up. |
Interesting question. Hmmm let me see. I would say that changing a preamp is far more of an audible change than changing amp. For example, here are 2 possible set ups with relatively efficient speakers:I've come to this conclusion as well-for a few years now-a great preamp is more important than a great amp. This is particularly true when all other gear is at a very high level. With a very basic system-even though high end-there is less reason to focus on the preamp-it can be often be bypassed altogether with a DAC or similar that offers volume and input control. And at the very very high-end, some folks with great systems prefer minimalistic passive volume controls. Harry Weisfeld of VPI for example claims the best preamp is no preamp. But for most systems.... |
An excellent amp typically withstands the test of time. For example, you can grab a pair of pass labs 600.5 monos which are at least a 15 year old design and pretty much kill a ton of new current amps. That said, with preamps it's very different. New offerings tend to dig deeper into the music and paint you a better picture. |
Whitecamaross,thanks for response!I have noticed more of a differenceiin switching preamps more than amps also.Im stuck with a Intergra 80.3 processor that I use for both for awhile.You said earlier that you used a processor also for awhile.Did you ever get good sound using one or is a dedicated 2 channel pre worlds better? |
@whitecamaross - have you had a Theta Casablanca IV or IVa? @corvette01 - the Theta CB IV is my favorite processor (have not tried the IVa), and the McIntosh is my second favorite. I've also had Krell, Arcam, Marantz, Onkyo for HT. Back when I did 2 channel, I loved my Pass Labs X1 (SS) and the Cary SLP-05 (Tube). Dave |
best processor i have ever owned is between the bryston sp3 and mcintosh mx160. These 2 are just on another level. UPDATE: I just plugged my krell 403e evolution and my lord talk about bass control and attack. Amazing overhead with gobs of horsepower. It feels as if you can crank it up and never run out of steam and things do not get fatiguing at all. I am attributing it to the preamp since it is tube based. I gotta tell ya, this krell evolution and audio research combo is lethal so far with my sonus faber speakers. if you listen at low volume levels, the gs150 may be the meal ticket, but if you like to put the pedal to the metal, the krell may have edge since it has nasty horsepower. |
whitecamaross..you have given honest and amazing input. thank you! you assigned the krell duo 300 a favorable grade. do you have experience with the top krell illusion preamp? i am awaiting delivery of the duo 300 amp and illusion pre-amp. i will run them thru martin logan 13a’s in conjunction with a meridian 808.2 cd player and auralic vega dac.....also,running very good MIT cables i haven’t auditioned the krell stuff. this is a leap of faith. your thoughts? thanks mike |
Sorry to hijack this thread, but I see we diverted into processors just a bit. I do have several comments (I’m sure this belongs in Home Theater section, but several of you are talking about this here). Bryston SP2 - (Class A discrete audio) This was my first major processor upgrade from an old Sunfire Theater Grand. The Bryston was an extraordinary upgrade. This SP2 model had a lot of attack and detail, however over time I realized that it didn’t really have much decay or fullness. Also, I always felt that I had to really turn it up to hear stuff or have good impact from movies. Krell HTS 7.1 - (Class A discrete audio) I switched over to this from the Bryston after reading a long posting from a guy over on AVSForum which had the HTS on his short list. This was back in 2005 and I would probably consider that guy the "whitecamaross" of processors for that time, lol. The Krell was amazing and sounded so much stronger than the Bryston. The entire sound spectrum came across much stronger and had so much more impact. Everything "sang" as well. I loved this processor for 10 years. Emotiva XMC-1 - (lower cost op amps) after moving over to a set of Emotiva XPA amps (which I loved and were excellent), I gave this processor a shot from all the hype that was coming out of this item. The sound was nice, but it was somewhat closed-in. It also did not have the resolution and "separation of instruments" that the Krell had. I would say that this is an excellent choice for someone who is under budget constraints. I have no idea how this compares with the likes of Marantz or Anthem. Theta Casablanca IV - (discrete/opamp) My brief experience with this processor did not work out for me. I really loved the configuration of the processor and the idea that HDMI is a pure passthrough. Engineering design approach looked very good. However, I just could not get the processor to sound good in my system. The audio output stages are all solid-state and are not Class A circuits. The Extreme card appears to use some sort of resistor-ladder or resistor-switching circuits in the I/V and output stages. The Supreme II card uses a fully differential op amp for I/V and output. The sound was extremely clean, but it just did not "sing" like my Krell HTS 7.1 did. Knowing what I know now (after about 2-3 years of R&D and experimentation with different types of opamp/discrete analog circuits), I think the Theta processor would mate well with a warmer amplifier that has a high bias into Class A (i.e Pass Labs, Parasound JC1, Aragon 8008/Palladium/Iridium, etc.). I had very strong/fast Class AB amps and they just did not work well with the harsh solid-state sound of the Theta. Bryston SP3 - (discrete Class A audio) I took a shot at this. Like the Theta, it also had a passthrough HDMI (no video processing). I tried a lot with this processor. However, in the end it was just too laid back for me. This coincides with Whitecommaross experiences that Bryston has changed it’s SP3/Cubed product generation to be more laid back. The bass response of this processor was just outstanding. There was so much low frequency energy in the room that it was shaking ceiling joists and my projector frame. However, all the action, voices and music just did not cut through. There was not enough of an impact for me. Everything seemed too far away or laid back. I also felt that it seemed that I could never turn it up enough for impact (just like the older SP2). Bell sounds came across excellent and natural, however. I think part of the root cause is the Bryston approach to circuit design. The Bryston has a very large main power supply. However, after the +/-24V and +/-15V voltage regulators, there is hardly any capacitance (only a 10uf post regulator). There are no power capacitors surrounding the analog circuits so the Bryston circuits do not have enough "immediate" voltage to respond to the very fast transients of the mids/highs. In comparison, looking at the Krell Class A discrete circuits, you can see that each analog circuit (equivalent of a single-channel opamp) has about six 47uf capacitors mounted right there. This give the Krell the extra muscle to respond to the fast mids/highs. Krell S1200U-3D - (Class A discrete audio). This is the processor that I have finally ended up with and that I love dearly. I probably should have kept to Krell because I loved my HTS 7.1, but I wanted to see if I could get something better. This carries the same sonic signature of the HTS 7.1, but now I can support the hi-res bluray audio (TruHD/ DTS-MA HD). I will say that the Krell processor (and their low-end preamp) have an undersize power supply. I ended up soldering a additional 15,000uf into to each of the +17V and -17V power supplies, and an addition 10,000uf to the 5V digital DAC ref power supply. This completely fixed the lean bass and upper mid shoutiness/forwardness of the Krell. The bluray audio is amazing now. So much that standard DVD dolby digital sounds dirty/grainy to me and satellite DirecTV dolby digital is just horrible in comparison, lol.. I did not try McIntosh processor, but I did really look into it (I may have tried the MX121). The overall McIntosh architecture design is excellent and they make a very good power supply. However, it is still op amp based circuit and I was also scared from the many reports of firmware bugs that McIntosh never fixes In comparison, I found a firmware bug in my Krell S1200 earlier this year where it was incorrectly applying Dynamic Compression to DTS-MA movie soundtracks. Krell had this firmware fixed and emailed to me within a week!! (which was totally surprising from Krell and even for a discontinued product!!). I did not try the Classe SSP-800 because it also had op amp architecture, but it was on my short list if the others did not work out. I do not care about 4K, dolby atmos, DTS:X, or room correction. |
The duo 300 and preamp should be very good. I had the duo and it was good. That said, I will be very honest and say to you the pass Labs 350.8 Kills it especially with Martin Logans. Logans sound AMAZING with pass labs. I've said this many times. I wouldn't even try anything else with them. Trust me on this. |
