Musicians in your living room vs. you in the recording hall?


When it comes to imaging, soundstage and mimicking a recorded presentation, which do you prefer?
Do you want to hear musicians in your living room, or do you want to be transported to the space where the musicians were?
erik_squires
Tough question.

I wish to be transported to concert hall.

But it is not bad if I feel musician in my listening room.

  • It will be more costly to invite them to my listening room.
"We developed directionality in our hearing for a reason, and it really works! (At least mine does, at the concert hall)." I guess, back when it was a survival skill: some wouldn’t have.
In my youth I had season tickets to Andre Previn conducting the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra in Hein Hall, a noted acoustical venue.  I also listened to live jazz in the local clubs, i.e Modern Jazz Quartet with Milt Jackson on vibes.

They are very different experiences, not to mention seeing Duane Allman just blow the house sown at the Syria Mosque in Pgh in 1971.

My point to all this is that replicating those experiences in your room is NOT simple.  The quality recordings exist, but trade offs must be made to maximize the sound you like best.  

The holy grail is making the all sound original in your room, an elusive ghost IMHO.

For myself, I maximize the intimate sound with my 3.6 Maggies, yet still enjoy cranking it up to listen to Duane work his slide magic.

Just one old guy’s thoughts



viridian wrote:

Neither, I go to quite a few live concerts, both classical and popular. I don’t hear imaging and soundstaging in the concert hall, so I certainly don’t want it in my listening room.



I'm always amazed when someone writes that.

If we are talking amplified music, well then ok.   And if imaging/soundstag isn't someone's bag, I get that too.


But this notion that unamplified instruments and voices don't image/soundstage, including orchestras, is really strange to me.  I totally get imaging/soundstaging from live music, orchestras included. 



This week I stopped to listen to several different busker groups playing on the street.  Every time I closed my eyes and whether I was near or far, they imaged like a lazer, totally easily to place, I could point right at them.


We developed directionality in our hearing for a reason, and it really works! (At least mine does, at the concert hall).
Post removed 
I want what is in the recording.   If its a live recording then take me there. 


If I had to pick: transported to the hall.

But depending on the recording, even in a "transported to the hall" set up, it can sound like musicians brought in to your room (e.g. dry, up-front recording).

The problem with seeking the transported-to-hall version is it tends to place an emphasis on soundstaging/imaging, especially creating the character of an expanded, deep space.  All too often set ups that seem to achieve this do so at the expense of a somewhat more wispy presentation.  All those far away instruments seem to lack palpability and impact.  (Cue everyone here "not in MY set up!"...)


I'm always trying to balance the two: soundstaging with guts and palpability.


No simple answer for me.  Small jazz & blues groups, solo guitar, piano or vocals - I prefer them in my living room.  Who wouldn't want to welcome Ella Fitzgerald and Joe Pass for a performance at home?
Orchestral, loud rock or big band - I prefer the big venue presentation.

     I agree with geoffkait that there's not a big difference between being transported to the venue and the musicians seeming to be playing in your room.  I believe the difference is subtle and based on small clues picked up on the recording mics that a high quality playback system is able to reproduce accurately, such as the decay times of musical notes and reflections off of venue room boundaries, that our brains process as clues to the venues dimensions and sonic characteristics.  
     If there's an absence of venue clues on the recording, I believe our brains process the given sonic information and creates a sound stage illusion that the musicians are playing in our rooms, instead.
     It should be noted that well recorded, mixed and engineered recordings, along with a high quality audio playback system, are both required for our brains to be able to create either sound stage illusion.  Good room acoustics and proper positioning of the main speakers, in relation to the designated listening position, are also critical in enabling our brains to create a solid and stable sound stage illusion.
     Lastly, poorly engineered recordings will only allow our brains to create two dimensional and flat sound stage illusions that are not nearly as involving, realistic or palpable as the three dimensional varieties of sound stage illusions.
     I actually consider the perception of a 3-D, solid, stable and palpable sound stage illusion as a primary goal of my system and the primary contributing factor to my enjoyment of my system.  It's a very immersive experience that significantly adds to my enjoyment of listening to well recorded music in my room.
     For a maximum 3D sound stage illusion effect in my room and system, I move my Magnepan 2.7QR panels between 5-7 feet away from my front wall with zero toe-in and move my listening seat exactly between them and between 3-4 feet away.  This typically provides a wide and deep 3D sound stage illusion with solid, stable and palpable illusions of the instruments and musicians distinctly located within this soundstage. 
      I've also found that my Audio Kinesis 4-sub Swarm type DBA system also significantly enhances the realism of this sound stage illusion.  The bass instruments like drums and upright basses are not only distinctly located within the sound stage but, when I focus on either, I'm able to perceive the varying pitch and volume level of each instrument emanating from the proper sound stage locations.  I consider this level of detail astounding and very enjoyable.  Achieving this level of detail usually requires a well recorded 24/96 hi-res FLAC file recorded direct to digital but it's truly impressive and enjoyable.


Tim  
   

  


 
  
Post removed 
Neither really. All I want is to hear the recordings as accurately as possible. I dont consider my system a substitute for live music. If I want to hear musicians in the flesh I leave my listening room and go out.
That's right viridian. In most modern electrified concerts there is not any imaging. But in smaller venues there may be like a jazz club, a choir in a church or a symphony orchestra will have wonderful imaging and loads of ambiance. A string quartet in a hall, imaging and ambiance to spare and a good recording will capture all of that and that is what I want to hear. 
If you do not go to these events you should. Close your eyes and listen to each instrument individually. That is what you are shooting for, the sensation that you are there at that time in that space.
For me, it all depends on the mood which in turn drives the content at that time. And in both cases, unfortunately I can tell the compromises that are made by the quality of my system and the room. 
Post removed 
“What’s the difference?”

The difference is that a setup where the room has a significant effect on the sound will always have some room influence - and this will always have some impact.

A good setup will present the recording space as presented on the recording. In many live recordings this will be the venue or for studio or close miked recordings it will tend to sound as if they are in your room or in front of you.

Phase accuracy, listener and speaker placement is important. In smaller spaces the best place to sit is near field in order to minimize the room.
I’m assuming the difference is one system provides all the sonic cues of the recording space and with proper setup of your speakers attempts to recreate that venue.

The other setup pushes sounds more forward, with greater presence and intimacy but at the expense of those smaller sonic cues being overshadowed.

I agree too that the mic’ing is a large determinant of this.
I have both between TW Acustic AC3 turntable and Esoteric 03SX CD player with Purist cables and MAGICO speakers.
Tried it both ways. Greatly prefer being transported to the recording venue. The problem with having the musicians there in your room is the mess they always leave behind. 
Both. Since my listening room is as small as a small venue I can enjoy both.

A listening room that is too small (like a bedroom) tends to leave too much of its own sonic signature. Same with a very large room like a gymnasium. In between is ideal - around 5000 cubic feet being optimal. There should be plenty of space behind the listener.
Hi Erik,

You’ll find the following thread from 2010 to be of interest, as it discussed exactly the same question:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/quot-they-are-here-quot-vs-quot-you-are-there-quot

I had a number of lengthy posts in that thread, but the bottom line in my case was (and is):

Almarg 9-5-2010
As someone who listens primarily to classical music, my goal is to duplicate as closely as possible the experience of hearing a live performance from a good seat in a good hall (less extraneous sounds from the audience or other sources, of course). Therefore I am in the "you are there" camp.


Best regards,
-- Al

Assuming the speakers and system have a neutral perspective, that might depend on how far away the mikes in the recording were. For large scale orchestra, I might like to be "there". For close-miked bands I like them to be "here".
The recordings I’ve personally done, take me back to the venues, in which they were made. That’s always been my goal, in the home. Long as my system accomplishes that, I know I’m recreating whatever ambient info is contained in my other media, as well. Of course; then there are studio recordings, with electronic effects, manipulated by someone moving knobs/faders, to create the illusion of a space and sounds expanding/decaying into it. If my system does the first correctly, I know I’ll experience, whatever that guy intended(and laid down). That’s my personal preference/experience, regarding the issue. Obviously; there are other tastes. Can’t wait to hear from those that have never heard, or don’t know how to listen for a, "sound stage" or, "sound field"(the ambiance/Sabine signature of a venue), and how live instruments sound in one. You know: the, "If-I-can’t-hear-it-it-doesn’t-exist" and/or the, "if-my-system-can’t-do-it-it’s-some-kind-of-distortion" contingent.