Musical Surroundings Phonomena II+ -OR- Moon 110lp v2 -OR- Parasound ZPhono XRM Phono

With your existing table and those price points, I'd go for the something in the middle.

Choice of phono cartridge will make more a sonic difference.

"nearly twice as good" 

Not the expectation to have with audiophoolery.

Maybe look at the MS as being more competent with the next table upgrade.

At that point you're looking at something $2-3K+

@tablejockey

the middle is the Moon - I guess?

However, there are two approaches:

1. I go for best fit for the Rega P3 for now

2. I go above the P3 "grade" and then later upgrade to a P8 (I hope) and then my phono stage I bought now will be OK for the P8?

Figure out what is wrong with your current rig before buying new gear.

What you describe is most likely a setup and/or a mismatch problem.

Could be something as simple as cleaning the stylus - if you are lucky.

DeKay

I don't know if anything is wrong with it. Maybe it just has its limits?

Something is wrong.

List all of your year with specifics and maybe someone here can help figure out what.

My TT/arm are approx. 50 years old and my phono preamp retailed for <$200 - this setup plays everything without a hitch.

DeKay

@dekay 

I am just generally confused, shouldn't a better equipment improve the sound (in general, if setup properly)?

My current phono stage is in my Musical Fidelity A3.2

Do you have a source aside from vinyl?

If the sound of it gets confused with more complex music then it could be the amp/speakers.

If this only happens with vinyl playback then something is amiss with the analog gear.

A P3 with a decent cartridge mated to an MF A3.2 should sound quite good with all types of music.

DeKay

@dekay 

that's exactly what I thought, testing CD vs vinyl. I will do it now and post results shortly.

"My current phono stage is in my Musical Fidelity A3.2"

The phono stage in your amp will be "bettered" with a stand alone unit.

How much will only be found out by hearing all 3 at once in your setup. 

With your existing table, I wouldn't go beyond the Moon, based on it's age. The latter Rega designs are improved and noticeably "better".

If it were me, I go with the Parasound, since It essentially will do everything the MS will. Get a $500 new flavor cart at some point and be done with it.

Any curiosity after that is a step up to a new table and next level phonostage-more wallet opening.

By then, you'll want an amp and new speakers too.

@tablejockey you mean the P3's age? It's one year old.

I want a lot of things and I am in no danger of getting them :)

" It's one year old."

Oops! I owned a P5 when that series was relavent. When I see "P3" I think the series from the 90's early 2000's.

The Rega line is great for what it is. I guess it's a sign I'm showing signs getting on in age.

Mr @dekay

I tested 2 different albums, very different quality.

The vinyl is way more laid back, deeper bass, less treble, more airy with a bigger soundstage

The CD is full of highs, screechy but musical, forward - and tiring.

I definitely felt there was something lacking with the turntable. The vocals are pulled back too much. I have no idea if the phono stage will fix it, but when I switched, the volume of the analog source was half of what the CD’s, same amplifier but the phono preamp of it, which should/could be quieter

Grisly:

Sorry, but I don't know what to add/recommend @ this point based upon your responses.

DeKay

thank you DeKay, I understand

I'm back:

Just looked @ one of your system pics from a previous thread and wonder if you still have it set up this way.

Pic shows a less than sturdy looking table with the TT setting on top of an amplifier (subwoofer placed directly below the amplifier).

DeKay

@dekay 

I will post a new picture. I now have the TT sitting on a cabinet

Check out the following thread with attention to the posts by caterham1700 regarding a DIY Ikea Lak Rack.

Without all the fuss (also the way the legs are constructed has changed over the years making the build much more complicated) I suspect that a stock Lak coffee table may work well with your Rega.

You could also just try the Lak side table if you won't use the extra shelf space (of the coffee table) for other gear.

Drilling the legs and installing adjustable spikes should add some benefit, but you would have to reinforce the holes with 2-part wood filler or something similar (I'd just try it stock to begin with).

Caterhan (Ken Lions) designed and manufactured the custom shelves I use for my TT/CD decks.

Ken always supported the use of light and rigid support for unsuspended decks like the your Rega.

Others are correct in that a better phono preamp should sound, well better, but I prefer to get the most out of what I'm using before moving on.

DeKay

thanks DeKay, do you think my current cabinet is a problem?

Not certain.

Many Rega TT posts mention the use of light/rigid wall shelves or light rigid racks.

As the Rega wall shelves have hiked quite a bit in price and I'm not certain if the less expensive Project wall shelf (said to be good) is still produced I figured that a Lak table would be a good/cheap light/rigid experiment.

The side tables sell for $15 here (coffee table $40).

I made 2 Lak's (one TT platform spiked - one rack using brass cones) when I had 2nd full systems in the spare bedroom and liked them.

I used to find the end tables discarded on the street in my neighborhood (just checked and I still have 3 left in storage).

You could even try something like this (instead of spikes).

DeKay

thanks DeKay, I will definitely look into these options. I "thought" the Rega feet do some of the/a decent job of isolation. 

One should really have their TT on a good solid foundation and isolated from foot falls and vibration. Lack of detail is more a cartridge issue, alignment, VTA (nonadjustable but you can get shims for Rega TT)  tracking force all plays a part. 

Jerry:

I'll add keeping the stylus clean to your list.

I've been using the original Magic Eraser for years now, but my arm has an up/down lever (don't think I would try it manually).

Before that I was using a travel sized ultrasonic toothbrush with replaceable batteries (just touched the stylus with it) and a stylus brush - the Magic Eraser works just as well.

A dirty stylus and/or groove wear on LP's is a common cause of what the OP describes.

Grisly:

What cartridge do you have (see a few options supplied by Rega with the deck)?

The light/rigid approach is geared towards draining vibration off/away from the Rega (not isolating it).

This approach also works with my sprung/suspended TT as well as the CD deck.

Instead of buying one of the expensive recommended light/rigid racks I purchased a bolt together steel rack and mig-welded it into a one piece "rigid" unit.

I also ended up with zero fill in the hollow legs after experimenting, but the rack is located outside of the living/listening room.

DeKay

DK: you mean this?

I have the Elys 2 MM. with maybe 300 hours on it.

I thought my Rega feet had a spring but it's just a piece of plastic. Short term I couldn't squeeze in another piece of furniture, so I am thinking I could put rubber under it or isolation feet. like something under $35 and see if it makes a difference.

I did listen again to Dylan, ELO and Van Morrison with 3 seconds delay on CD and vinyl and found the vinyl to lack some detail. I cleaned the stylus and.... I'd be wary of aligning it, just yet, I would need to learn how.

Yes, that is it (ones sans any added cleaning agents).

My original pack of them has a finer grain than later one's, but no-one has complained about the later variation(s).

I stick a slice of it down to a small piece of thick paper, but have a tonearm up/down control like the one in the following video.

I would not trust my doing it solely by hand @ this point in time, but I'm 68.

Lot's of info here in the forums on the best way to use it.

DeKay

Nice! I ordered some, Magic Eraser bath tomorrow!

I made some gains detail-wise, by re-setting the arm and putting rubber feet under the rigid feet.

I also received a Musical Surroundings Phonomena II+, connected it and sounds absolutely bad. I know it shouldn't so I must be doing something wrong.

Double check to make certain that you have connected the new phono preamp to the "line" inputs on your amplifier and not to the "phono" inputs.

Set the gain to the lowest option and set the loading to 47K, or whatever is closest to that, and run it for a few days.

Keeping the gain setting low (your cartridge has extremely high output specs) try the loading options just below and just above 47K to see if either sounds better.

DeKay

thanks DeKay!

@grislybutter I just picked up the same Phonomena ll+ used from a local guy.  Definitely check the settings and make sure the gain is at it's lowest setting - all dip switches down I believe.  I have a Rega p6 with Exact 2 cart with similar high output to the Elys 2.  The Phonomena ll + is quite dynamic, maybe too much so for the Rega carts.  I do like what I am hearing for the most part but I seem to be getting more noise (clicks and pops) even in the lowest gain setting.  Loading is best at 47K for me so far.

@pkatsuleas

I did screw up the settings, back to fixing it!

So, yes, I found the details. It's super crisp and bright. Is there a way to tone it down to more neutral with the load and gain settings?

@grislybutter 

I am a relative newb to vinyl and still learning about load, gain, different carts, etc.  But I don't think there is much more you can do except put the gain on the lowest setting and play around with the loading.  I bought the PH ll+ because of it's flexibility and MC cart capability.  I am considering trying the Ania MC cart sometime in the future.  But, I may have to look for a phonostage that's a little more tame!  Still experimenting and listening. 

I will say that keeping your vinyl as clean as possible will definitely help reduce noise.  I've become somewhat obsessed with dust, humidity, etc.

@pkatsuleas 

yeah, I am on the lowest on the gain :)

I agree with you, the vinyl has to be clean. I have some that sound absolutely terrible from the most anal, recording quality obsessed musicians.

Time to learn vinyl clean for me on the cheap. 

@grislybutter 

Best of luck!  Vinyl takes some work with many variables to consider.  But, I've heard it sound fantastic even on my modest system.    

@pkatsuleas I love the sound, especially the vintage sound, that CDs can't recreate. All the imperfections, background noises, everything that brings it alive.

@grislybutter sounds like a set up issue. Did you use a good protractor to check your cartridge alignment? Overhang, zenith and VTF are pretty much the only settings you can change with the Rega P3 if I’m not mistaking. Make sure your overhang is correct. It impacts the sound quiet a bit.

@audphile1 

I set it as described in the manual. I have no idea how to change with the rest and if I tried, I would absolutely mess it up.

I wouldn’t worry about your Rega alignment - Roy Gandy doesn’t believe in such nonsense 😉 as long as the 3 cartridge mount screws are in place & your Elys 2 is tracking @ 1.75 grams. The anti-skating slider behind the tonearm rest can be set slightly under 1.75 for optimal results if the turntable is level.

I would though, try listening for minute differences in tracking force +/- .02 grams to see if it has a preference over the recommended 1.75 grams. Tracking force is like a one-knob tone control where you tweak for optimal tonal balance. Too high VTF equates to bass heavy & vice versa.

With the Musical Surroundings phono, the pair of 4 dip switches are only for gain or volume. The pair of 8 dip switches are for loading.

Since the Elys 2 has a lot of output, 40 dB (all 4 off) will most likely be your best setting. The next level to add volume is 44dB (only 4 of 4 on).

From memory, only position 1 of 8 (capacitance of 200/300 or 100/200 pF) and 8 of 8 (resistance of 47/100 kOhms) is relevant to your Elys 2.

More capacitance and less resistance will soften the tone & vice versa. FWIW, realize that 47kOhms is the Elys 2 standard for positions 8. Positions 2 ~7 off.

That’s all you’ve got. Hope this helps!

@boothroyd 

what are you, a magician? Everything you said is spot on.

I did lower he slider away 1.75 and it did improve the higher frequencies a lot. 

I did level the turntable, and always check that first.

I need to learn more about gain and loading to be able to ask informed stupid questions :)

Man this is hard. And fun.

@grislybutter 

Glad it’s all coming together for you 👍

Yes indeed, it is most enjoyable fun 🎶

I sold my JC3 Jr. after comparing it to the XRM. The XRM is actually quieter and I couldn’t detect a difference otherwise. 

@dekay @boothroyd @tablejockey  and all

I have been using the Musical Surroundings Phonomena II+ for a week now and the difference is significant, detail, tone is much improved, layered.

It confirmed that (in my current chain) the weak link was my phono stage in my integrated amp. Now I just have to find the best phono stage in my price range

Just for kicks try the MF onboard phono again.

The sound of the MSP II improved with some adjustment you made to the TT (I'd be curious as to how the MF sounds with this adjustment).

DeKay

I did listen to the MF with the changes for a couple days before the MSP arrived but I'll try again

You changed the anti-skating setting (for the better) after you were running the  MSP II.

DeKay 

you are right.

But I stopped listening to it and switched back to MF because I didn't get the settings right, for a couple days on the MSP.

Lots of incompetence on my part

OK, got it.

The MSP II reads to be more upfront/exciting.

DeKay

it is more accurate too. There are sounds that are simply not "read" by the MF. High frequencies mostly.

After my 2 months long testing 4 subwoofers and 1 phono stage, and my limited budget, I need to decide which one I need more. Given that I never really enjoyed any of the subs, maybe should test other phono stages. This one seems a bit harsh.

Try Sutherland KC Vibe MkII. Quiet, smooth and natural sounding. No harshness there at all. 

thanks @audphile1 I see that that’s what you have (besides other models). I will look into it