MSB select II vs all dacs ?


Wherever I read I see unanimous praise for the MSB Select II. Of course this DAC is super pricey and out of the reach of many (including me). I wanted to know for anyone who has heard it have you also heard a DAC that approached it in sonic performance? One name that was thrown around by a few people I know is the  Rockna Wavedream. Anyone make that comparison?
smodtactical


smodtactical OP
MSB select II vs all dacs ?


I have an MSB Discrete R2R ladder dac, and direct into any of the amps I have, and it makes PCM RedBook CD (any vintage) sound great.
Rich full bodied mids airy transparent highs, huge sound stage, slamming tight deep bass, pinpoint imaging and depth.
The sound no matter how loud you play, just washes over you, instead of trying to burn laser holes in you.
It made me realize all those old/new CD’s that always sounded fair and I didn’t play that much, are now sounding like they were done yesterday, (those new and old that aren’t compressed that is).

Cheers George
Yeah you should check out Holo Audio May, Mola Mola Tambaqui, and Metrum Adagio.
Just wanted to say that my own experiences with Bob and worldwidewholesales has been positive. I never felt pressured, and all of the advice that he gave me turned out to be 100% true. It started when I was comparing various USB cables (between my Aurender N100H and Hegel HD30) DAC... some of the cables I was auditioning were over $2k... and Bob suggested that I try the Inakustik USB which was just a few hundred dollars with a no-risk trial period. He assured me it would sound better than the cables I was using and when the cable arrived my ears heard exactly what he had said. Same thing with the Inakustik power conditioner. I know that all sales persons, naturally, are interested in selling. Of course. However, all of the advice that Bob has given me has been accurate, and I never felt pressured in any way with him trying to "close a sale". I think he's a music lover just like us and has personally auditioned a LOT of gear and sharing that experience might come across as "not listening" to some folks, but for me, he was always open to hearing about the particulars of my system and listening preferences and his advice was tailored accordingly. 
To me all the digital is very good at this point and allows one to enjoy music through digital.  Everyone is different and their systems and preferences are different.  Hard to generalize for me.  My experience is that it is more individualistic depending on someones entire equation, including budget.
@rhapsody From everyone I have talked to the rockna is far superior to yggy2 but I have not heard either so can't personally comment.
Yep, definitely not grinding an axe here either, this is the truth. Ask around and you quickly find out about his interactions with others, mainly US dealers. I know of two US dealers who recently expressed interest in carrying the Rockna line but flat out decided against it after a conversation with him. IMO, he's seriously holding back the brand in the US. I had a Rockna from one of his dealers here in the US, but returned it, in part because of him being at the forefront of support for it- not thanks.

Lastly, people need to know, he is not from nor does bob reside in the US, and therefore has an extremely limited and short-sighted understanding of the US hifi market and customer. 

People just need to be informed. What you do with the information is up to you from here. 
@jc51373

My experience with Bob - worldwidewholesales is very similar to yours. He reminds of used car salesman back in 90’s, just like them he would make up lies or say anything in order to close a deal to his advantage.
I've dealt with Worldwidewholesales in a transaction, Bob Neil is not an honest fair guy to deal with. He flat out doesn't listen to the buyer needs, could care less what you have in your system, could care less about anything but talking about himself. He tells you what will sound best, because he's A/B tested XYZ amount of brands, he knows more than you. To the new audiophile this tactic likely works, or to the person looking for a deal, since he undercuts his own dealers all the time. Ask Bob at Rhapsody about him, he dumped Worldwidewhoesales, even though he loved Rockna. That should tell you alot.

 The attitude he displays here, is the same EXACT attitude he displays in a business transaction, so caveat emptor when dealing with him. Any positive feedback he likes to parrot having is a direct result of what I said earlier. Undercutting his own dealers, and selling to those only looking for a quick deal, not the right piece of equipment. Don't expect someone who will listen to your needs when dealing direct with Bob. 
I ALWAYS hear great things about the Schitt Yddrasil at $2499.  I've never heard it and have now idea but even at it's price point it is worth investigating.  I think the Yggy is more different than say the Rockna vs one being better than the other.
The Rockna is a very good sounding dac.  I now use the Aqua Formula xHD at $17K and love it. SO many good DAC's now. I actually never hear about a "bad" sounding dac.

Over the last year I personally have come to the conclusion in my system(s) that the server, the network prior to the server AND vibration control all are more important to me vs. what DAC is used.

Again, just my opinion from my experiences, doesn't mean anything to someone else in their rooms, systems, ears etc.

Just revisiting this thread. It seems pretty much everyone loves the rockna wavedream, esp sig balanced. So for under $20k has anyone heard a dac they enjoyed more?
i wanted to add my perspective on the Taiko Audio Extreme server, to what Bob from Rhapsody posted above. the Extreme server is a game changer.

and also agree with Bob that the MSB Select II is also the best digital i have heard.

the combination of the Extreme and the MSB Select II in my system makes for remarkable digital performance. and i would add that the Extreme server is better than other servers by a larger, more obvious margin, than the Select II is better than other dacs.....if that makes sense. the Extreme is like a punch in the nose obvious.

the musical advantage of the Select II is more subtle.....and is more apparent over time as everything is just more real, flowing and nuanced.

of course, i’ve not heard everything out there....and especially not heard everything in the context of my system. YMMV.
It is also noted in this thread that Rhapsody.Audio is a dealer for the distributor, WorldWideWholesale.

To clarify Rhapsody.Audio  WAS a dealer for Rockna and In-Akustik but as of a few days we are no longer a dealer for either brand and we have no affiliation whatsoever with WorldWideWholeSales.
Latik-The Aurenders are great, especially the N10.  If you are enjoying music via streaming then why opt to spend more $$$ on something new.

in_shore  Yep, the source as very important back to the Linn proclamation in the 80s still holds true.

I personally was very surprised in the streaming/digital world how drastically in my room/systems the server and connections from modem to the server and the server connection to the DAC made more of a difference than when I switched DACs.

Anything that I have ever said about this to anyone was always in the context of my system and what I had experienced and really has nothing to do with what others might experience in their systems.

I've NEVER done any direct comparisons between any of the DACs mentioned in this thread.


I wholeheartedly agree with ‘prominence on the source / network server’ part. That’s why my Aurender N10 is been the reference for over 5 plus years. There isn’t anything else out there that I seek or desire anymore.

I couldn’t have asked for a better digital streaming setup than N10 + EMM Labs DA2.  
Rhapsody I’ve been following this topic thanks for chiming in , I guess like most here I generally find topics of this sort highly interesting though the majority is way outside my price bracket.

You suggest prominence on the source / network server over the dac i wholeheartedly agree keeping with my old school thought on similar topics.
@rhapsody   Bob, thank you for your post and allowing us to follow the digital breadcrumbs. : )

Very helpful and clear. Thanks!
Bob Visintainer here- I’ve been quoted many times in this thread. Here are the facts-

-I had the MSB Select II for six months with one power base and Femto 33 Clock. It was the best digital that I had ever heard.

-I got in a CEC $33K Dac. I put it in my system and was completely satisfied, I did not feel I needed the expensive MSB any longer.

-I then got the Rockna Dac, same thing happened. It was $11K and I did not miss the CEC. I sold the CEC.

-I also was using the Rocka Server. The combination was/is excellent especially with the I2s interface using an In-Akustik usb cable.

-Then after a few months I ended up getting a Taiko Audio Extreme server. The price of the Extreme is $25K compared to the $9100 Rockna server. Is there a difference? To me there is MUCH more of a difference in my systems inserting the Extreme server than changing the different DACs. There should be a difference the Extreme is almost 3X the cost of the Rockna server. I still think the Rockna server and DAC are excellent at their price points. I could live with them and enjoy digital easily with this combination.

-At the present time my reference is the Extreme server with an Intona Ultimate USB cable into an Intona 3.0usb isolator with another Intona ultimate usb cable into an Aqua Formula xHD DAC with the latest analog output board.

In no way did I do a direct comparison between the MSB, CEC and Rockna DAC. What I did what go from one to the next to the next and never missed the one prior or felt like going back. Although right now I am enjoying the AF xHD but again it’s twice the cost of the Rockna DAC.

In addition Rhapsody.Audio is no longer a Rockna dealer.  We are focusing on the Taiko Audio Extreme server as well as the Aqua Formula Dacs.  

The Rockna products are excellent products for the $$$ and anyone can't go wrong in choosing them for a digital solution.

Any questions please just ask.

Bob V.
Hi mikelavigne,

At any point did you hear me say Rockna was the best or put any other manufacture down? I think if you read my post very carefully you will read this is exactly what we do not want to get involved in.

There is no intent hear except to say "lots of good dacs" and sorry if you want to make it sound other wise. It does not matter if the person is in the audio industry or not, we should be allowed to have an educated opinion. Nothing that we said was hypothetical but rather based on real experience. 

Cheers and lets not side track this whole thing.

@worldwidewholesale 

when you, a distributor of brands (CEC and Rockna), are posting about them relative to other competing products and starting your post as follows;

Hi,
One of our stores in NY, Rhapsody Music, did do a direct comparison and here was his conclusion.

what are we, as end users, to conclude? that your intention is NOT to make a case? :-)

i do agree with your later post that we are speaking about one person's opinion. and this person is one of your dealers. 
Hi mikelavigne,
We are not trying to make any case but rather stated very clearly the following;
Again that was just one persons opinion and there is no "best" and I stress this because of the obvious. Different rooms, different ears, different pairing of equipment and different taste in music.

We think there are are some other very good dacs available including Mola Mola and the Total dac. Rockna makes a great dac but we really like it when matched with the Rockna Wavedream server.
Cheers,
@worldwidewholesales 

here is what Bob (Rhapsody) said to me regarding the MSB, CEC and Rockna.

>>>i did not go into any drastic back and forth comparison. But once i got the CEC i just never went back to the MSB because i was just totally satisfied.<<<<

then he also added;

>>>the weird thing is a couple months later i got the Rockna and the same thing happend.<<<<

then;

>>>my digital really sounds good to me and it almost doesn't matter what dac i use.<<<<

what he doesn't say is that the MSB represented a chunk of cash sitting there and he is a dealer to sell stuff.

just putting Bob's comments in a bit of a context as it's hardly proof of any sort of ranking.....as you would then build your case with. i love Bob's casual attitude toward all this great gear, but is he who we use to determine which dac we prefer?

i guess it depends on what case you are trying to make.

have a nice day.
Good points by all. I agree price is necessarily indicative of quality or performance. But MSB Select 2 is regarded by many as the best thats why for something 1/10 of the price to compete in anyones eyes is quite an accomplishment.

I mean I don't think you'll find anyone who prefers the schiit modi over the schiit yggy2. But the price difference is similarly massive.
yyzsantabarbara, 

I agree it seems manufacturers are jacking up the price. Several years ago I was told that manufacturers believe if a price isn't high enough,  some in this hobby won't take it seriously. In my experience sometimes the higher priced component sounds better and sometimes it doesn't. 
@smodtactical I would not take price as any arbitrator of quality, especially nowadays. It seems to me that manufacturers are jacking up the price for the perception of quality. Almost all gear I hear is pretty good and some are great but the most expensive ones are not universally the best to my ears.
Hi,
Again that was just one persons opinion and there is no "best" and I stress this because of the obvious. Different rooms, different ears, different pairing of equipment and different taste in music.

We did test the Mscaler + Chord DAVE and we thought it was very good. I truthfully don't want to get into the whole Rockna versus the rest of the world. Rockna really comes into it's own when paired with the Rockna Wavedream Net server and a great SSD in the server with your favorite music on that drive. There are a ton of factors that make a great digital system and in my opinion, you build it slowly and most importantly have fun doing it.

Cheers,
@worldwidewholesales  Wow, Rockna better than MSB Select 2 ?? For it to be even in the same converstaion as Select 2 is a huge accomplishment. Amazing. 

Did you hear Mscaler + Chord DAVE and compare to Rockna? What other dacs have you compared to Rockna? 

(sorry to all for semi-derailing my own thread).
Post removed 

Hi,

 

First I want to say that I fully agree that the hobby is subjective to a point and that is why we do blind testing and A/B testing with 5 other people who only have 2 things in common with our system. The remainder of the 5 systems are completely different, our rooms are completely different and our ears are completely different. But the majority of the time all 6 of us, over a 2 day test period come to the exact same conclusion. Lots of time it comes down to knowing what you are actually trying to achieve in a high end home system and listening for that end result.

 

Our digital testing has been done over the last 20 + years and as I said earlier there is no "best" when it comes to dacs or digital front ends. Set up is key, cables are super important, server is also very important and our preference connection is an i2S connection.

 

It would be absolute suicide for an audio distributor to state his/her experience and preferences. It would only sound like sales so we prefer to keep our test results among ourselves. I hope you understand.

Cheers,


“Personally we have A/B 76 different digital front ends.”

@worldwidewholesales, 

Is the number 76 comes from your life long exposure to digital front ends or direct comparison with Rockna DAC?

We would love to see your top 10 A/B comparisons with Rockna. Why not start a thread that details your impression about Rockna Sig vs other 9 DAC’s that are currently available and competing in $20-$5K range? 

Cheers! 
I understand that audio stores and distribution companies have the opportunity to A/B a significant amount of equipment. Unless they have the exact same components as the end user, it's impossible to tell that customer how component X will sound in their system. The other issue is preference. What ice cream do you prefer? No matter what ice cream you prefer, I prefer something else. This hobby is "highly subjective", influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions; therefore you can A/B a million different components and come to a completely different conclusion on how it sounds compared to another listener. I hate to repeat myself, but there are no absolutes in audio, only preferences. The end users ears are the only ears that count.

Hi ricred1,

 

I agree with what you are saying but "far too often" the retail client forgets that most audio stores and audio distribution companies have had the opportunity to A/B many more pieces of equipment than any consumer will every hear. Personally we have A/B 76 different digital front ends.



Truth is if you want to get the absolute ultimate out of a Rockna dac, you need to run it i2S connection into the Rockna Wavedream Net. Again I know it sounds like sales but the Rockna streamer is the perfect match to the Rockna dacs. Also your i2S cable and Ethernet cable going to the Rockna Wavedream Net are super important. Every little detail makes a big difference, just like setting up a table properly.

Cheers,
“The only true way for the end user to know what they prefer is through listening in their own system.”

+1, @ricred1.

Your experience with Rockna coincide with mine. I had bought the Signature version and as good as this DAC is, it wasn’t the right ‘fit’ for my listening preferences and overall system synergy.
Post removed 
"To be 100% honest we have A/B tested most of the dacs mentioned in this forum and they are all very good dacs. I believe it comes down to personal preference." I agree with your statement. I would just add budget and the other components in the system are major factors to consider. I submit dealers use the statement "component X competes against much more expensive components" far too often. The only true way for the end user to know what they prefer is through listening in their own system.  
Hi,

We are the North American distributors for Rockna so I thought I would jump in on this conversation. To be 100% honest we have A/B tested most of the dacs mentioned in this forum and they are all very good dacs. I believe it comes down to personal preference. I do however like the i2S connection better than any other connection because it eliminates some parts and gets you closer to a direct connection to the dac chip. The main reason we took on Rockna was because their dacs and server competed against much more expensive dacs and servers sound wise and build quality is also excellent. The other stand out dacs that we like are the Mola Mola dac and the Total dac. Mola Mola is another well built great sounding dac at a reasonable price.

 

We feel that it is difficult to say you have the best in regard to dacs but Rockna is definitely up there with the best dacs in the world.


toetapaudio,
"Since this forum is mainly USA based and we are in the UK, I have very little to gain business wise here."
From the perspective of someone that was in sales for over 20 years, to include teaching Professional Selling Skills I couldn't disagree more. Everytime you mention Mola Mola you are planting a seed. The bottom line is people should know you represent Mola Mola.
@ricred1, you’re right to point that out. I would,however, like to say we are highly selective over the brands we represent and believe they are excellent value. Since this forum is mainly USA based and we are in the UK, I have very little to gain business wise here. I’m participating to both learn and make suggestions where I have experience that may help.
Just in case it's not obvious,  toetapaudio is a Mola Mola Dealer. I say take what everyone post when a grain of salt, because an individual's preference may be different than yours. When a dealer post something you have to take it with a enormous grain of salt. Dealer's should be required to state they're a dealer every time they post or have a disclaimer in their username. 
I would say go for one of the other MSB Models...The Reference is half of the Select dac and the premier and discrete dacs are stunning performers for their price level... 
Prices are on the MSB website. 
@shkong78 how good is the dave + mscaler vs msb? I would have loved if you heard them in the same system for a direct comparison.
@ david_ten

One more thing!

If you want 3D holographic transparent soundstage with excellent details, Dave and Mscaler could be one of the best matching MSB Select II.

But it could sound analytical or hot coupled with bright combination of speaker and amplifier.

I drive Lansche 4.1 with SET amp.

Thus I could avoid bright or hot sound with careful selection of digital cables.

Recently I play musicals and operas very often enjoying excellent 3D soundstage.
@shkong78  Thanks for sharing your listening impressions of the Lampizator Pacific vs the MSB DACs as well as what you miss about the Pacific vs your Chord combo. 

The Lampizator Pacific is on my radar. Your post and feedback is appreciated. Thank you!
@david_ten

Hi David

If you are looking for nice Dac close to the performance of MSB Select II at more affordable price, then I recommend you to try Lampiziator Pacific Dac.

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9eh61-lampizator-pacific-da-converters

I had heard MSB Select II, Lampiziator Pacific Dac., MSB Premier with the same setting at dealer’s showroom.

Pacific sound full bodied and warm with 90% of the performance of MSB Select II at 1/3 cost.

It sounds much better than Premier on almost every aspects.

MSB Select II is slightly better than Pacific in somewhat relaxed analog texture.

But I was not willing to pay 100K$ for MSB Select II.

I had ended up buying Chord Dave and Mscaler which has more transparent soundstage than Pacific.

But I miss the full bodied and warm sound of Pacific.

https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/lampizator-pacific-dac/

Thomas