Motor Controller ugrade for Raven One Turntable

Hi Lewm, There are usually only a few reasons someone bad mouths a high quality product line such as the TW Acustic turntables. Many times a dealer of competing products will chime in on a post and bad mouth the product being discussed. Someone may have an ax to grind with the manufacturer for some unknown reason. I don't know the reason for such negative comments on this thread, but many people have hidden adgendas. TW Acustic tables may not be your cup of tea, but to say they are a good starter table is a ridiculous statement. Many of these people have probably not even heard a Raven table in there own system.

I can't imagine why someone would hate a particular manufacturer of turntables. The Raven seems reasonably well built, with accepted design choices. I'm not sure that you could ever perfectly calibrate 3 motors to run at exactly the same speed with exactly the same torque, but I believe that heavy platters and inertia more than cover up any speed issues when used with a belt drive. So while I have perhaps criticized the motor controller theory in this thread, it was not meant to be a criticism of Raven or any other manufacturer. I just dont get how a motor controller can have such a great effect on sound with a heavy plattered turntable using a reasonable quality motor.

Dear Blackburn, A Maybach? A Rolls? A Ferrari 599GTB or Italia? What, for $300K? I am a car guy without your kind of bucks, but I was once a very successful Porsche collector (550 Spyder, Carrera GT Speedster, etc). If I had not sold them all, I probably could now afford an MBL amplifier, but I probably would not buy one.

I visited the Raven showroom last October at RMAF. Thomas seems like a very nice man, and the products appear to be beautifully made. I cannot but wonder therefore at the hostility typically provoked by discussion of one or another of their products on this website. As someone else commented, there seems to be a group of Raven-haters that is at least as enthusiastic and devoted as are the Raven-lovers. I have no idea why this is, but the turntables cannot possibly be as flawed as the detractors claim, just based on the quality of construction and the fact that there is nothing particularly adventurous about the design, meaning Ravens stick to the consensus approach to building a belt-drive, which has evolved over the last two or three decades. (How different sounding can a Raven AC be from a Brinkmann belt-drive, for one example?) I will never be a fan of 3 motors, however.

I agree, Jeff is a great guy to deal with. I met him a few years ago at RMAF. He has never pushed me to buy anything. I have owned several VPI tables, the last being a Aries 2. It was a very nice table, but not as good as the Raven One (in my opinion). The Raven has a blacker background due to the very quiet motor. I plan on trying the AC motor controller in the near future based on Jeff's suggestion. By asking this question, I am in no way questioning Jeff's knowledge or opinion of the AC motor controller/Raven One table. My only reason for asking this question was to seen if others had tried this and what differences they heard. Others may not care for the Raven tables (eveyone has a right to their opinion), but I have been in this hobby for 30+ years and I have learned to trust my own ears and take everything I hear from others with a grain of salt.

If any of you have met, know, or had stereo business dealings with Jeff at Highwater Sound then you are already aware that Jeff does not give any 'sales' pitches nor does he ever feed you bull$$!!. He is as honest as they come in the business and far more knowledgeable than most! He's genuine and the real deal; a true music lover, very experienced, patient, and generally concerned about making you happy and giving solid music and stereo advice. And, he sells top notch gear including the TW tables which are without a doubt some of the very finest tables you can buy. German craftsmanship at it's best!

Yes, I have heard this motor change demoed at Highwater sound in NY and yes it makes a noticeable hearable difference. BTW, VPI makes decent products too but none of their motors can hold a candle to any of the TW motors (and I actually own a VPI Aries 3 now myself).

Try the motor change; if you aren't happy with it I am betting that Jeff will take it back...

Manitunc, refer to the other thread titled

"Motor Controller effect on analog sound"

some interesting info. there.

Tdaudio, not a problem for me, I did learn some things from the info. provided in the other thread by members.

Dev, Lewm sorry to have misled by my response to a poster who takes every opportunity available to make snide posts on TW Acustic threads. TW topics bring out a dark emotional side in these people. Sometimes I think its a “anything to get attention” thing.

I was anticipating the next snide suggestion in my post of using the SDS as a filter for the Raven one motor controller.

But hey, lets compare TW tables to Linn because they have so much in common.

As for upgrading the motor controller of the Raven One, I think of the significant differences in the price point of the One, the AC / AC3 and the Black Night. I don’t know how well the quality of the controllers follow the price points of the respective turntables but there is certainly very good possibility that the controllers up the line from the One are noticeably better than the controller that comes with the Raven One. I assume they are not the same if Jeff is selling this as an upgrade. Would most people agree with the “huge improvement” comment? Who knows, but don’t be thrown off your horse by a little sales pitch.
Terry

I guess I will still never get an answer as to why this upgrade to a motor controller had such a profound effect. And that is my only reason for commenting on this thread. To find out why so I can extrapolate to other systems. But alas, it was not to be.

Hi Lew,

the second Motor was useless here. but it looks good, or?
I made my studies about that long, long, long before.
And I closed that chapter long, long, long time ago.

Motors and other things

That's a pretty cool set-up, Syntax. Clearly you have studied at the feet of Dertonearm, at the school of two motors.

Blackburn,

I think you are missing the point, just so you know I'm not obsessing over you or your gear.

I personally have nothing against you and truely enjoy discussing with others in this whole audio thing we have in common but when someone "YOUR POSTS" are aggresive basically telling people what ever they own is crap, broken, over priced etc. is just wrong.

When someone "SOME OF YOUR STATEMENTS" are just not true and again come across as an attack well you know this is just wrong.

You can read through my past threads and see that I don't bash individules, suggest thier gear is crap etc. but I will call the person out just like I have with you.

You weren't suggesting I buy "A" list product from the reviews were you? or you you saying you do? because if you were referring to me that is absolutely not true I don't even read them.

Who cares what one pays or what one costs, it's all relative and if the person can aford it why are you so darn concerned.

My VAC amps list for $78K, my MBL's $60K that's allot more than the TW BK table. I'm looking at purchasing a car that will cost me over $300K, who cares I can afford it.

Again even in this posting you seem to have a reason to slam and be sarcastic when you say;

"long story that you and your TW brothers would find madding complicated and confusing."

Why so sarcastic again? it's not needed.

Refer to my first posting in this specific thread and read it, I was trying to find out what was actually going on, it's you and a few others posting who appear to have hidden agendas and a axe to grind with TW product.

Please educate me, I'm always open minded. What's the big secret, tell us what you have.

My dear Dev one last time, now your obsessing over me and my stereo. : )

OK you can stop obsessing : )

I am concerned ,hopefully you can grasp the meaning of these sentences and not get them all fouled up like your TW acoustic brothers.

First though I have a question, am I off with the price of the BK ???? this is yet another bash to my credibility.

: (

You mean they were able to hold back the price since 2009!!! of $40,000.00!!!!
Maybe on top with further discounts and a bogus low ball invoice for border customs, a stunning deal!
Practically unheard of in the industry!!! just how can they do it!!!

: o

OK.
I buy only "A" list audio magazine category components. I read all the reviews only of the best available .
Then search the internet for even more talk to help validate potential purchases.
People in this hobby know what they are doing now, my question is what did they do before the internet????

OK back to your concerns and mine.

Though my new table was just replaced with an old one at half the price purely on musical grounds, I did feel foolish about the 30 grand spent on two occasions, long story that you and your TW brothers would find madding complicated and confusing.

Syntax, okay but I still don't understand why you would sugest such, no need to explain.

It's great that Peterayer started the other thread, the individuals who have posted there have been very helpful, what a difference from some individuals who have posted in this thread.

No attacks, not trying to suggests something is wrong with what they have but instead just very educational, proper info. traded back and forth, I personally never knew there was that much going on and involved.

Syntax maybe pictures along with caption "VPI dual Motor flywheel assembly + SDS.

Something like that

Tweak Me

Syntax, Sorry about that. I did notice that you recommended VPI MOTOR plus SDS the first time around (yesterday), but I obviously could not retain such complex information in my pretty little audiophile head whilst composing my last post. Someone else also got the message wrong, which is what set me off.

Hi Syntax,

curious why would you write such;

"I would replace it with the VPI motor unit + SDS"

Is that what works BEST with your modified Micro Seiki RX-5000 table?

Blackburn,

again another post that you are just babbling away.

suggesting it costs 50 g's for a TW BK, again you are wrong which just further demonstrates your lack of credibilty.

I still don't see a list of your associated gear, why are you being so secretive? oh ya I recall you saying you feel foolish for having over $30k invested in your front end but then you make a snyd remark what do we call that ...

"Finally , 50 gs for a TW BK like I said the high end industry know their customers well."

Who cares about how much something really cost, this whole audio hobby as a whole is crazy priced.

Come on be a trooper and provide a list so we can comment on some of your gear choices as you have done to others in your previous postings, you surely dish it out enough.

Oh boy more heart burn : (

I understood his sentence immediately.

Syntax maybe pictures along with caption "VPI dual Motor flywheel assembly + SDS.

Finally , 50 gs for a TW BK like I said the high end industry know their customers well.

Hi Lewm, nice posting you beat me to it, even Blackburn recommended this in a saracastic way, I was just laughing knowing that this is nonsence.

One members reply in the other thread added saying;

At any rate, don't plug your DC motor controller into an AC motor controller as a "filter box". Man, people post some stupid things.

Curious Syntax what is your responce to that.

Dear Lewm,
I know it is difficult for Audiophiles (specially those in analog) to read a sentence properly. And to think about that. Too much for most.
I only wrote one sentence,
"... replace WITH (hello!!) VPI Motor UNIT AND SDS"

Now I know why Digital became such a success. it is based on Drawer in/out and start. :-)

If you think so, at least the other thread started titled

"Motor Controller effect on analog sound"

started by Peterayer offers allot of constructive postings by individules minus the non-constructive postings made by some individules above who only seem to have one agenda.

Don't see any of these individules postings their silly comments over there, wonder why.

Blackburn still waiting.

Dear Syntax,
However, your comment about replacing the Raven controller with the VPI SDS was ill-advised. I am not familiar with any of the Raven turntables, but someone on the other newer "motor controller" thread has remarked that the Raven motor is DC, whereas the VPI unit is designed to run AC synchronous motors. So, to the OP, don't do that swap. It is always best to use a motor controller that you know was designed specifically for your turntable motor, for good or ill.

The best comment in the whole Thread was the change of name from Black Night to Good Night :-)

Blackburn,

suggesting I'm upset or tender is just too funny on your part and so far from being the truth, in actual fact it's the total opposite.

Again I'll ask because you have not provided;

Enlighten us on your comments made because so far your threads posted are far from being constructive and you come across that you are the end all who knows all, help us please!

Another simple question that you have eluted was;

What does your set-up consist of?

Now that you have mentioned that you have two set-ups one with a direct drive table but is not actually your reference front end that you have mentioned in another thread that you have 30 plus Gs and feel foolish invested.

You appear to be pretty SECRETIVE for some reason but at the same time very opinionated with your remarks in postings in general in relation to other gear.

Here's mine;

Table - TW Black Knight
Arms - TW 10.5 and REED 12"
Carts - A90 and MSL Ultra
Pre-amp - VAC Sig MK2a w/phono
Amps - VAC Statement 450's
Speakers - MBL 101E's
Cables - Stealth through out

Will most likely add a DD table at some point for a different flavour.

We're waiting!

" Look forward to your response and assistance "
I thought I already did.

Dev I can tell your upset and tender right now maybe re-read what I said carefully and absorb it with a open and clear mind OK. Despite how you interrupted my comments sarcasm was not my intent.

Your other concerns? I do own a direct drive and a very nice one at that but I use it to listen to Rock and roll mostly but its not my reference front end.

Good afternoon
Heart Burn

I apologize for commenting above and not contributing to the OP's question. I only have limited personal experience with the AC motor controller. I have heard it under show conditions at RMAF 2010 and have heard the Raven controller on my friend's table, but I have not compared the two to each other.

I find the subject of motor controllers quite interesting. So rather than highjacking this thread any further, I have started a separate thread on the general subject in the Analog Forum.

Again, I'm sorry if my comments offended anyone.

Interesting thread.

The statement about the Raven one retail $6000 being worth $600 in build costs ? - maybe I misunderstood.

Anyhow - for those that experienced real sound improvement with a motor controller upgrade - I am willing to bet you will experience an even bigger audio nirvana boost going to an armpod. Real Raven experience on the Copernican thread.

The OP was looking for improvement in sound with this table. Reason for my post. Not trying to derail anything.

Cheers

Lewm,

I'm curious in relation to Blackburn's set-up because it's not just this thread but others I have read postings that allot of sarcasm is offered instead of being constructive, that being said I did read in one thread Blackburn said;

"30 plus Gs for my current front end is serious bread for anyone and right now I feel foolish."

curious to know, the norm is to share our experiences and compare, this is how we learn right.

If Blackburn prefers direct drive, he can't be all bad.

Blackburn,

Look forward to your responce and assistance.

Quickly weeding through your postings it appears that you might own a direct drive table, amps you mentioned in one thread you own are 12 year old ML2's, kindly let us know.

If you do own a direct drive table and this type of table design is your refference and flavour that you prefer than that assists in reading some of your past comments because from what I have heard direct tables offer a different sonic flavour and thats okay, so far any tables of this design that I have heard would not be my personal refference but just a second table to offer another sonic flavour in the end neither being right or wrong but just different and a prefference.

Sorry to hi-jack this thread with this info. but when I constaintly read someone being so opinionated I try to retrieve a little more info. to assist so to be on the same level.

Blackburn, we get it that you don't like any TW products and that's okay and that's your opinion but your sarcastic remarks and personal attacks towards actual owners are unnesecary and clearly only demonstrates the type of individual you are.

You seem to do allot of babbling about this or that but in the end you don't actually share facts to back such comments up. To me this just demonstrates a lack of your credibility.

What does your system consist of?

It's obvious by reading your thread above you have never actually owned or personally had any of the different models in your own set-up but only heard a AC in a freinds set-up other wise you would not have not wrote allot of the info. which you have.

If you have any first hand experience what so ever you know there is allot more to the system than just the table it's self.

Enlighten us because so far your threads posted are far from being constructive and you come across that you are the end all who knows all, help us please!

Dear Blackburn, You might think about changing your moniker to "Heart Burn".

Slowhand the comments and reactions above should be telling you something.

"Hyper-pole? First thought usually when ever i hear huge improvement"

" So question still arrases , how bad can the stock motor be that a replacement is nothing short of astounding"

My favorite
" Something must be wrong with the stock ac 1 motor controller that never really got noticed in all the glowing reviews of that table"

Something must be wrong all right, and what else? ,can't you hear it?
So what exactly zapped you peoples brains,,,, all that glowing on-line chat and magazine review sale pitchs???

I don't care for any of these tables and along with a friend that owned a Raven ac his conclusions are pretty much in line with mine.
He shamefully admitted he got suckered by HYPE in the tune of 20 grand.

But this is normal audio business , the high end know their customers well.

Improvments verywell be found changing out the factory wimpy motors and ps to the VPI sds and motor along with a new bearing perhaps ,including getting the tonearms off the table and building a good arm pod, whatelse?
Good night

Jdolgin,

that's great you had such an experience but what's with the tone of your post. I don't want to get into a debate but if you read the opening post of Slowhand there is allot more to it than you are implying.

Slowhand, in general for what ever reason I find allot of threads in general take on this tone as you wrote;

"wolves will attack" and "These days they just say you are stupid for liking this product or that brand of equipment."

if you are going to post be prepared but that's life. I wouldn't take it personally, most haven't owned and are just trolling and babbling away.

At the same time there are allot of great individuals providing info. to assist.

Personaly I like to try to be as open minded and subjective as possible.

If you have read any of my past threads you would be aware I originally wanted to buy a Black Knight but decided to get my feet wet first and purchased a Raven One, then purchased a AC3 and I actually did the controller swap, also swapped out trying different motors (amount being used) with the AC3 again noticing differences and now as I've already wrote above I'm a proud owner of the Black Knight and loven it.

For me, I know I'm repeating myself but was just currious with what the heck is going on and if anyone knew, wouldn't you and any others?

Pick your poision, which ever it may be and ENJOY!

Thank you very much Jim! Finally someone who has actually experienced listening to both controllers. Thank you for letting me know your findings. Dev, you have a point about my post. Posting on Audiogon these days is like being on the witness stand in a trial. You have to watch everything you say or the wolves will attack. I can remember when people really tried to help each other . These days they just say you are stupid for liking this product or that brand of equipment.

Slowhand,
You asked a pretty clear question in your original post. I'm astonished by the responses you've received based on no direct experience with the products in question. If someone actually is interested in the question, they can actually experience the comparison for themselves......It's much more fun to shoot the breeze with absolutely no real knowledge or experience.
I actually sat in Highwater Sound's listening room with Jeff Catalano. No B.S. no salesmanship....".Jim just listen for yourself." And I did. We had a Raven One first using MY OWN original motor controller playing thru his system of tubes and high efficiency speakers he demos in the HiFi Shows. We listened to a couple of cuts of music i knew well.
The ONLY thing changed was the AC motor controller was substituted for my own. The effects were clearly audible. The enitre sound field grew larger and the leading edges of the notes wer better articulated. This improved the rhythm and timing.
I then took Jeff's AC controller home to my own system and experienced the EXACT SAME changes I appreciated in his listening room.
So there it is. A well constructed comparison duplicated in two highly resolving but different systems.
Hopefully this will diminish the "forum noise" on this topic.
I'm not going to editorialize as to whether thee were monumental of minor changes. That's all personal opinion. I've tried to objectively report my findings.
All the best,
Jim

I would replace it with the VPI motor unit + SDS

Jaspert, I don't think that should be so. One of the functions of the motor controller itself is to protect the tt motor from poor quality mains supply, including ideally AC voltage instability.

I wonder if the TW motor controller fucntion is very dependant on the quality of the main power supply.

Only slightly off subject, I changed a flimsy power cord for a lessloss DPFC cord on the Raveen one controller and was very suprised at the improvement. The last thing I expected an upgraded cord to help , is a turntable motor. As someone else has said, all it has to do is turn a platter at 33 and1/3 or 45RPM, just how hard is that?

Well obviously it's very hard.

Hi Slowhand,

if you re-read your original posting you actually said allot more than that which opened up further discussions.

You posted Jeff saying;

"Jeff, at Highwater Sound has said that owners of the TW Acustic Raven One turntable can experience a huge improvement in sound by replacing the Raven One motor controller with the controller from the Raven AC turntable."

which opened up discussions, doesn't that have you wondering how this can be.


Blackburn,

it's okay not to like a specific product or product line but why do you continue to troll sites posting sarcasm instead of being constructive. All one needs to do is read your PAST history of only seven postings. In reading such you mention in so many words how you did your evaluations, "EVERYONE STAND UP AND CLAP for William" you actually haven't even had any of the product in your set-up but quickly become opinionated which is okay but to me only demonstrates your lack of credibility.

The table is only a part of the set-up and for you to say they are boring sounding is just rediculous.

I see from reading some replies above it's apparent you guy's have a axe to grind in relation to TW product instead of staying on topic, why is this. : (

Jealous! Envious! : ( .....Hahahahahahaha OH MAN , Thats a good one! KaHAHAA

Im a proud owner of a TW Black Night : ( , Good night HAHAHAHAhahahaha

I continue to be amazed at how many responses you can get that have nothing to do with the question that you asked. I just asked if anyone had tried replacing the standard motor controller with the AC controller. I only got 2 reponses that even came close to answering my question.

Much of that assumes a constant motor speed, which is a big assumption. But if you have a constant motor speed, what is it that different motor controllers or belt material or anything else is doing to affect the sound. By definition, a change is either adding something or removing something. So, what is the motor controller doing, other than maintaining constant speed, that is adding or subtracting from the sound that comes out. Same with the different belt materials.
Of course, you can go around and around in your head looking for explanations. but assuming the changes are real, they should be able to be defined and then reproduced. Maybe we cant do that yet with test equipment, but that doesnt prevent us from trying to understand what is happening, and thats what I'm trying to do, for my own understanding. And maybe, if I figure out some of the parts, my little brain can figure out the big picture.
Maybe the motor controller takes out little micro vibrations and thats why it sounds better. Maybe a different belt material does the same thing. I have to guess that it has something to do with vibration, because thats what the stylus picks up. Of course, there are issues of time domain and such, but that is just a shifting of when the vibration occurs in relation to others.
Again, assuming the squiggles in the vinyl groove are passing by the stylus at a constant, accurate rate of speed, the sound should remain the same regardless of other factors unless somehow other vibrations are being added or subtracted from what the stylus reads. then of course, we have what happens after the stylus sends out its signal.

Hi Manitunc, you know how this hobby is sometimes things are heard by some and not others. I believe our minds play with us at times. I've been present with some demonstrating gadgets and they are most defiantely wowed but personally I'm not getting it.

Some post using the wrong words "astounding" could be one because they were just overly enthusiatic at the moment, I know I have personally done this.

I'm just trying to understand what is going on if this in fact is taking place, just as I have mentioned in my prior posting. In friends set-ups I have heard the differences by just changing different belt materials, belts to mylar tape, string etc.

All of these are driven by a motor which is usually powered by a controller of some sort if external, what ever the material is attached to the motors spindle and then around the tables platter.

So what's going on?

I am not questioning the quality of a TW turntable and they are probably a fine product. What I am questioning is the reason for an "astounding" difference in sound by just changing a motor controller, whose sole purpose is to make sure the motor turns at a certain speed. I am questioning how much off speed the stock motor must be if the change is "astounding" and if that is true, can I get the same "astounding" change with my turntables by changing the motor controller.
As far as I understand, nothing else was changed to get this "astounding" result.

I see by reading some relies above it's apparent you guys have a axe to grind in relation to TW product instead of just staying on topic, why is this.

Jealous! Envious!

Some of the statements made are just nonsence and non constructive in relation to this specific thread and what the OP has posted.

It's find to flavour another product but to start babbling on with silly comments in the end only demonstrats the lack of your credibility.

I'm a proud owner of a TW Black Knight, I have owned a few other TW tables prior to this one but I'm still curious in discussing the thread at hand, being open minded.

I have friends who try different belts, thread, mylar, turn off the sucktion of the platter, use different motors and on. Some of these changes are very noticable and positive, others are questionable.

Ha! It must be a small watch that keeps circular time....make mine a Micro Seiki and never look back.

As someone has said before, get a Micro Seiko and never look back.

Slowhand mentioned in the OP that Jeff at Highwater Sound said that huge gains can be had by replacing the stock motor controller from the Raven 1 with the controller from the AC-1. Slowhand then asked if any Raven 1 owners have tried this. Elinor then shared his experience writing that he replaced the controller from the AC-1 that Jeff spoke so highly about with the battery powered controller from the Black Knight and noticed an astounding improvement. So isn't Elinor implying that their is something not so great about the AC-1 motor controller?

There seems to be a difference of opinion about the effectiveness of the AC-1 motor controller. Or is there just a huge difference as you move up the line?