Most Important, Unloved Cable...

Whoa! What's this, the attack of the Audio Peer Review Committee?

Whatever you have to tell yourself. But yes, in a modern world where claims have to be substantiated, I know it's crazy. I'm sorry you were born on the wrong side of the Dark Ages. 

A man will usually gives the best evidence he has for a claim, short of that he will just bemoan the fact that he has to provide evidence. 

Yes peer review is part of the scientific method. And without science you would still, for example, have a life expectancy at birth of at best 30 years, and believe that you were getitng ill because of bad spirits or whatever nonsense. And medicine is not the only scientific achievement.

Sure if there are no measurable differences in noise or frequency response, there is nothing until somebody comes up with a better measurement.
An alternative and perhaps even purer way to look at it would be to inspect the digital packages and compare what goes in and what comes out. This too has been done, and the answer is: bitperfect. This is not a matter of belief or opinion but of fact, and not of alternative fact.

Whoa! What's this, the attack of the Audio Peer Review Committee? 🦃 🦃 🦃

willemj, would it be fair to say without looking more closely at the fine details of those tests, the take-away is things that measure the same also sound the same? Is that what you would have us believe? No wonder the cable controversy has been going on without letup for 40 years.

Then perhaps you should abuse yourself of the details. If YOU are claiming a benefit with X, it’s YOUR responsibility to show how that claim can be empirically demonstrated, not anyone else’s responsibility to prove it wrong. If said benefit is claimed because of A, and we know that A can be empirically demonstrated by 123 testing, then yes, we can test your claim. If no known testing methodology is available, it’s your responsibility to provide it. Without demanding that, your claims would be limited to your own imagination. 

If you are also claiming that we can’t measure a particular sonic change, benefit or detriment, then you have another claim to provide reputable citation for.

the real reason The Amazing Randi never (rpt never) lost a Million Dollar Challenge was because the test protocol was obviously slanted to favor Randi. And to favor him to such an extent he virtually couldn’t loose.

Citation Needed. Other than all of the charlatans who couldn’t perform. It's plain to see, that as soon as they are introduced to proper experimentation and logical rigor, we get a litany of special pleadings for why they can’t prove their claims.

your obvious contempt for audiophiles and the whole scientific method notwithstanding,

You, lecturing someone on proper understanding of the scientific method. That’s rich.

willemj
Well, here for the measurements:
http://archimago.blogspot.nl/2015/02/measurements-intercontinental-internet.html
http://archimago.blogspot.nl/2015/02/measurements-ethernet-cables-and-audio.html

willemj, would it be fair to say without looking more closely at the fine details of those tests, the take-away is things that measure the same also sound the same? Is that what you would have us believe? No wonder the cable controversy has been going on without letup for 40 years.

jujitsu wrote,

"I laugh every time I see someone say something like the above.

Because Randi didn’t get 1000 mystical spoon benders to test, so when he exposed Uri Geller for the charlatan that he is, it’s not really valid and we hold out the possibility that people can actually bend spoons with their mind. Incredible ’logic’.

Here’s the thing: You aren’t aural savants. You’re aural spoon benders.

The real reason that you will not sit for a bias controlled evaluation is that when you crash and burn, and you most certainly will, EVERYTHING you have an opinion about when it comes to the audibility of equipment will be worthless.

When you’ve been exposed either making stuff up or hallucinating then you can’t be trusted."

>>>>>>jujitsu, your obvious contempt for audiophiles and the whole scientific method notwithstanding, the real reason The Amazing Randi never (rpt never) lost a Million Dollar Challenge was because the test protocol was obviously slanted to favor Randi. And to favor him to such an extent he virtually couldn’t loose. It was rigged every which way to Sunday. That’s what Wellfed found out dealing with the stacked deck of James Randi Education Foundation when he agreed to take the Million Dollar Challenge for the Intelligent Chip, the little orange quantum thingie that is placed on top of a CD player for improving the sound of the disc. (I have to respect that Randi had Kramer, formerly of Butthole Surfers rock group, coordinate the blind test of the Intelligent Chip.)

So did Michael Fremer, of Stereophile, whilst negotiating with Randi’s crew for a $20K high end cable test, discover it’s not an even playing field. Let me give some examples, gentle readers. In the case of the Million Dollar Challenge for the Intelligent Chip Wellfed was expected to perform the test at some location other than his own house and on a system of Randi’s choosing. I.e., some unfamiliar God knows what system. Keep in mind Randi nor any of his crew were audiophiles. Also, the CDs could not be treated a priori, which would have been beneficial to Wellfed since differences with the Intelligent Chip would presumably be easier to detect. There was also a dispute how many people from Randi’s crew were to have been present at the test. Finally Wellfed would have had to guess correctly 10 out of 10 consecutive trials. Give me break!

Well, here for the measurements:
http://archimago.blogspot.nl/2015/02/measurements-intercontinental-internet.html
 http://archimago.blogspot.nl/2015/02/measurements-ethernet-cables-and-audio.html

Most importantly, anyone who has actually taken a look at Randi’s challenge..and done so with the trained eyes of a statistician or person who designs rigorous scientific testing regimens.. that person soon finds out that his tests do not follow any of the accepted methods and ways.

So much so that they are not even remotely correct or applicable to any testing standards. Randi’s test methodology fails to meet even the minimum for correct testing. The test, if applied... is slated to create a failure mode and find favor to Randi’s position in the given agreement.

I laugh every time I see someone say something like the above.

Because Randi didn't get 1000 mystical spoon benders to test, so when he exposed Uri Geller for the charlatan that he is, it's not really valid and we hold out the possibility that people can actually bend spoons with their mind. Incredible 'logic'.

Here's the thing: You aren't aural savants. You're aural spoon benders.

The real reason that you will not sit for a bias controlled evaluation is that when you crash and burn, and you most certainly will, EVERYTHING you have an opinion about when it comes to the audibility of equipment will be worthless.

When you've been exposed either making stuff up or hallucinating then you can't be trusted.

Oh, it can be done to cabling. And doing it to cables prior to Cryo improves the effectiveness of Cryo in terms of sound quality. 

No matter how much you have in the end you could have had even more if you had started out with more. - old audio axiom

Do that to cabling and you'll have a crank to turn on your own cash making machine.

You'd have a unique way of cryogenically treating cables.

I believe in the influence of human consciousness and the subconscious on water - among other things - especially in relation to the formation of ice crystals of water, not only when exposed directly to specific spoken words and phrases or thoughts but also specific written messages. But this is very different from what you referred to, water memory. My Morphic Message Labels, which influence sound, would be quite capable of influencing how ice crystals form. ❄️ ❄️ ❄️

spoon benders and ghost whisperers

Why worry about it? None of the validation tests that I've seen spoon benders or ghost whisperers perform, using your version of 'logic', are not scientific enough with 1000 benders/whisperers to test against. Especially if the result is Negative. Memory Water is one such item that meets your criteria.

All tests for Memory water have turned out to be a negative result. So I guess theory is still sound for memory water.

So if you're divining, bending cutlery, chasing amorphous farts, making memory water it's all good.

Atlaudio353
geoffkait: "...going after spoon benders and ghost whisperers."

So you admit to being in league with charlatans?

>>>>If I was I wouldn’t admit to it. Unless it benefitted me somehow, naturally. 💰 💰

"The determination of a SCAM was by this groups moderators"

Where did they say this? Moreover, I couldn't find the word "scam," either with or without caps, in the TOS. Perhaps you should go easier on your keyboard. However the offer was clearly wagering, which is a violation of TOS, and posts were removed. 

"Just like they do going after spoon benders and ghost whisperers"

So you admit to being in league with charlatans?

Good wire good, Yum.

dynaquest says " I will ignore him heretofore. "

I do not think you know what heretofore means dynaquest because it make's no sense in this context you are just another of the extremely confused, disoriented, winkly dinklers in this thread very much of which has been all about a scam that the knowledgeable moderators have wisely chosen to delete many of the posts in that were part of the scam and increasingly you and shandorne and jujinku all seem to be the same sockpuppets talking to each other.

Clearthink clearly thinks he cannot be wrong and his declarations are gospel.  Accordingly it makes no sense to continue to consider him a relevant player in this conversation.  I will ignore him heretofore.

dynaquest4 says " If clearthink says it was a scam,  by God it must be. "

The determination of a SCAM was by this groups moderators and not by me that is why the posts by jinjuku were deleted also dynaquest4 was if I recall correctly also involved with the SCAM by claiming to put up money in the cable challenge so it's clear that dynaquest, jinjuku, and shandorne (same person) are all involved with this scam in one way or another although it is true that dynaquest may not have realized it was a scam he was getting involved with.

I think "clearthink" has a "thing" for " the experienced and knowledgeable moderators" of this forum.

Kinda reminds me of the cowardly lion and the "Great and Powerful Wizard of OZ."  If clearthink says it was a scam, by God it must be.  Oh, and ignore that man behind the curtain.

I have no idea who jinjuku is but I do know a troll and will no longer feed it.

I believe Clearthink is Bo.

shadorne says "  For the record I am not jinjuku... "
Sorry you already slipped up and let it out that you are jinjuku who has been determined by this group's experienced moderators to be a SCAMMER.

@clearthink

For the record I am not jinjuku and my audio system and pics are listed on Audiogon for many years. I take exception to your unfounded and insulting accusations and statements. I am willing to accept your apology for your insulting behavior and I am actually interested to learn about your game/changing TruFi setup?

 Since you impune the integrity of others here then please share your setup and demonstrate both your credibility and integrity.

It’s funny how people take naysayers sooo seriously, as if they have legitimate arguments. It’s like saying The Amazing Randi just has a difference of opinion about high end cables or that he’s just skeptical that the Intelligent Chip works. Give me a break. It’s nothing of the kind. It’s just that people get a lot of pleasure going after audiophiles. Just like they do going after spoon benders and ghost whisperers. 👻 You’ve seen cats tease dogs, right? Same thing.🐩

"  The offer is considered a wager and against the TOS. Normally I would just rescind the $2000 and travel expense paid by you requirement. This would put me back into compliance of the TOS but I'm not going to come out of pocket to basically perform what would be tantamount to smack down because that is how it's going to go."

You are too funny it was a SCAM and that is why it was deleted and if it is not a SCAM you could proceed based on what you are saying here by "rescinding" the $2,000 requirement which you say you would "normally" do which is a way of saying you've done this before which I do not believe and I do not believe you have the money to back up your claim either you are as I have stated previously a winkly dinkler there is nothing you have posted here that is true you are trying to execute a SCAM and that is pretty obvious to everyone here except shadorne who has been exposed as one of your sockpuppets.

@jinjuku,

We get it!!! You’re are not in ’Cable makes a difference’ camp. Then why you continue to participate in a thread that contrary to your core beliefs?

May be your ears gotten immune to any possible audible improvements from barking at people who are actually willing to try and keep an open mind.

jinjuku
This person" is singular so the correct word is his. Singular possessive. Case closed.

"Their, them, themselves, they (as singular pronouns)
Many English speakers believe that using the plural pronouns they, them, themselves, and their in gender-neutral singular constructions is incorrect. For example, these people would consider the them in “call a friend and ask them to come over” to be wrong because them by definition refers to multiple people, whereas in this clause its antecedent (a friend) is singular.

But there are problems with this view."

You are inferring a gender when it hasn’t been provided to you. Keep on swinging and missing.

>>>>Again with the logical fallacies. English must be your second language. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Except when it comes to English grammar. 

"Knowledge is defined as everything that’s left after you subtract out all the stuff you forgot from school." - old audiophile axiom

The offer is considered a wager and against the TOS. Normally I would just rescind the $2000 and travel expense paid by you requirement. This would put me back into compliance of the TOS but I'm not going to come out of pocket to basically perform what would be tantamount to smack down because that is how it's going to go.

Intellectual honesty seems to be limited to me and just a few other posters in this thread.

Anyways you have my email and barring an exception from the TOS we still have a thread devoid of people that actually have faith in their ears.

It's still a sold outcome for me either way.

shadorne says "  Jinjuku has not had a single person take up his challenge."

Then you must be jinjuku or how else would you know that! This whole thing is a scam it is designed to cheat people out of there money and that is why the moderators have wisely decided to act and put a stop to it.

"  the posts referencing Jinjuiku's ethernet challenge being removed does not equate to the challenge being a scam "
It was OBVIOUSLY a scam that is why the experienced and knowledgeable moderators removed every reference to it and if it is NOT a scam then jinjuku can repost the challenge and this time include details to insure that it is NOT a scam but of course he will not do that because it was a way to cheat people.

@geoffkait   

This has nothing to do with Randi. 

You and many others are obfuscating the discussion with Strawmen and all manner of assertions.

It is pretty simple.

Either claims of audible differences are easily and readily apparent or they are subtle or not audible. 

Apparently these differences are most likely NOT easily audible as Jinjuku has not had a single person take up his challenge.

This actually says a whole lot about those folks here who claim everything (even a fuse direction) makes an audible difference!!!!

BTW I can beat Tiger Woods at golf all the time. However I am too busy to play against him and anyway those tournaments are rigged so I refuse to participate. But it is a fact that I golf better than Tiger Woods.

1. Sighted evaluation = Awesome. We can trust the results

2. Bias controlled evaluation = Broke. Every thing is suspect. Especially results that fail, for whatever reason, to trend with sighted evaluation.

I’m testing to the same standards that people ascribe to sighted evaluation. Sauce that is good on goose is equally good on gander.

It's only as valid as sighted testing. No more no less. I'm not submitting anything to JAMA.

The moderators typically remove posts at the request of member posters...I suspect they have better things to do than sit around reading every post on this forum.  So, it is most likely that someone here asked for Jinjuku's posts to be removed.  

In any case, the posts referencing Jinjuiku's ethernet challenge being removed does not equate to the challenge being a scam.  Someone made that up.....uhhhh, who could that be?

Just wanting it to be a scam of some sort does not make it so.

Most importantly, anyone who has actually taken a look at Randi’s challenge..and done so with the trained eyes of a statistician or person who designs rigorous scientific testing regimens.. that person soon finds out that his tests do not follow any of the accepted methods and ways.

So much so that they are not even remotely correct or applicable to any testing standards. Randi’s test methodology fails to meet even the minimum for correct testing. The test, if applied... is slated to create a failure mode and find favor to Randi’s position in the given agreement.

Also, to look at Randi’s technical background. He has none. None at all.

When we look past the bluff and fluff of words spoken at the front end of things, this is what we find.

shadorne wrote,

"Jinjuku presented a difference in opinion on the audibility of Ethernet cables and was actually willing to challenge others to test the differences in the system of choice of those making the wild claims. All harmless stuff to me. The fact that no test will happen simply adds more weight to the view that the audibility of differences are pretty small or subtle, if any."

Whoa! Huh? Difference of opinion? That’s exactly the same way that The Amazing Randi presented his Million Dollar Challenge to audiophiles to pass a double blind test for expensive cables and the Intelligent Chip. What made the whole thing so preposterous is that The Amazing Randi and his band of merry skeptics previously made a career out of challenging folks who claimed to have paranormal abilities, you know like Uri Geller, the famous spoon bender. And dowsers! spiritualists, ghost chasers, etc. Why he chose to go after audiophiles is anyone’s guess. Although, I can pretty much guess. Whereas The Anazing Randi had deep pockets courtesy of Johnny Carson one assumes jujitsu doesn’t have such rich friends in high places.

"  Jinjuku presented a difference in opinion on the audibility of Ethernet cables and was actually willing to challenge others to test the differences "
Jinjuku was a SCAM that's why his posts were deleted by the moderators an obvious fact that you continue to ignore as you blame others here for your problems and HIS it is becoming increasingly apparent that you may very well be jinjuku and you seeking to gain personal information about the people in this group is also something he was trying to do with his 10 to 1 odds gambling ring!

@clearthink

I will bow out of this conversation as you appear to be suffering from conspiracy theory paranoia. I am not Jinjuku. Neither I believe is Dynaquest. If someone challenges your beliefs or sees things differently from you it does not automatically mean there is a nefarious intent. Jinjuku presented a difference in opinion on the audibility of Ethernet cables and was actually willing to challenge others to test the differences in the system of choice of those making the wild claims. All harmless stuff to me. The fact that no test will happen simply adds more weight to the view that the audibility of differences are pretty small or subtle, if any.

I am not scamming anyone I am not asking anyone for money or asking them to reveal personal details as part of some scam to cheat them. If you think my posts here are a scam like jinjuku's then you should ingage the moderators in your belief so that they can thoroughly evaluate it and if they come to the same certain conclusion as they did with jinjuku then they will delete my posts here just as they did when they realized what jinjuku was up to. Shadorne it is beginning to look like you are jinjuku which is perfectly believeable because you keep defending someone who has been revealed to be a proved SCAM "artist" who used this group to cheat other people.

@clearthink 

You stated this on another thread where you very very heavily promoted TruFi:

" I am a client of Bo's and it has been proven to me and it has been proven to everyone that the world of music reproduction systems is shifting from one of widdley-tiddley voodoo to TruFi, which is recognized by all who hear it. "

Since Jinjuku has been civil and respectful and it is actually you who is making all the nasty assertions about others on these forums, I suggest that is you who should identify yourself! Are you Bo? Are you a shill for TruFi? What is your affiliation to Bo?

As I understand it, TruFi is a commercial endeavour that simply sells third party components especially selected by Bo using his genius and TruFi patented technology... sounds like a scam to me but perhaps you can explain.

" Jinjuku has not cheated anyone."

I absolutely hope that you are completely correct in the simple assertion although I do not know how you can be certain that you are correct unless you yourself are jinjuku which of course on the Internet which is full of sockpuppets and outright deception is certainly possible! If it is true that you are correct that jinjuku did not cheat anyone then the diligent moderators who expertly manage this active group acted in time when they permanently deleted every post jinjuku made to promote his deliberate scam and if you do not see the accuracy of that I kindly invite you to contact the moderators and request that they restore the deleted posts which I do not think is something they will consider because they know the truth and so I suspect you do too!

I would add to this that if jinjuku’s proposal was NOT a scam then it should be reposted here with all of the pertinent information which is something the moderators would allow under the terms of use of this group provided it is NOT a scam but of course we all know better it was a SCAM! That's why it was deleted!

@clearthink

There has been no scam. Jinjuku has not cheated anyone. The only thing plain for all to see is your nasty personal attack against someone who simply challenges your line of thinking.

As for my experience, I know for a fact you are right about cables as I have heard it myself many times but these effects are mostly subtle and ONLY audible when using poorly designed, poorly matched and/or malfunctioning audio components. Of course you hear differences because almost anything can influence the sound of broken or badly designed equipment. There is nothing at all even remotely surprising about this discovery. The conclusion that cables are a key component in the sound and deserving of high $$$ expenditures is the tomfoolery of a winkley dinkler. The choice is simple when faced with audible changes in a setup where none should occur: Switch out your faulty gear and take a leap forward in high fidelity or continue tinkering with band aids like cables and fuses!

It is now plain for all to see that the attentive moderators who expertly manage the discussions in this group have actively chosen to permanently delete jinjuku's numerous messages promoting the "10 to 1" odds scam that appeared designed to cheat $2,000 USD from the contributors to this forum and I just hope that none of the posters here lost any money or gave up any personal information to this winkley dinkler. Of course there are audible differences in various cables as has been repeatedly testified to in this very conversation from actual practical users.

This person" is singular so the correct word is his. Singular possessive. Case closed.

"Their, them, themselves, they (as singular pronouns)

Many English speakers believe that using the plural pronouns they, them, themselves, and their in gender-neutral singular constructions is incorrect. For example, these people would consider the them in “call a friend and ask them to come over” to be wrong because them by definition refers to multiple people, whereas in this clause its antecedent (a friend) is singular.

But there are problems with this view."

You are inferring a gender when it hasn't been provided to you. Keep on swinging and missing. 

 

@dynaquest,

I don’t entirely agree with your summary cause some of those betting don’t even own a digital streaming setup that involves Ethernet cable (I won’t single them out but they know who they are).

Why they are even here debating the merits of Ethernet cables or digital bits is beyond me 😳

We have recently conducted a shootout between following cables and each of these cables sounded different in a pretty good mid-fi system,

Purist Audio CAT7
SoTM dCBL-CAT7
Synergistic Research Ethernet Active SE CAT6

In any highly resolve system, each and every cable matters!

dynaquest409-17-2017 8:56pm

Bunch of guys say the unloved Ethernet cable, if you purchase an expensive one, sounds way better ...l Couple other guys say not so ... Those couple guys challenge those other guys to a bet ... No one wants to accept the bet ...

Please. It is a "bet." A ruse. A charade, a parlor trick at best, posted by an anonymous contributor offering a gmail account as a source for details of the "offer." Hence all of the deleted posts. Please.

This discussion has merit. We disagree, sure, but lets not lower ourselves to throw insults at the messenger...like commenting on their (collective singular) comprehension skills.

Here is how I see this. Bunch of guys say the unloved Ethernet cable, if you purchase an expensive one, sounds way better...like "night and day." Couple other guys say not so....digital will always sound the same. Those couple guys challenge those other guys to a bet that they cannot really tell the difference if they don’t know which one they are listening to. No one wants to accept the bet...instead they offer extraneous BS excuses and insult the guys offering the bet.

Good summary?

shadorne wrote, 

"Ah yes the bait and switch technique. People don't like the challenging idea that claimed results aren't audible enough to be tested - so now they protest about the use of pronouns, suggest that this is some kind of Nigerian scam and self proclaim that the thread is dead!"

>>>>>>Whoa! Huh?! Your reading comprehension skills are about the same level as jujitsu. Did you both go to the same school? You know, when you put words in other people's mouths it's called a Strawman argument, a logical fallacy. Better luck next time.

then, shadorne wrote,

"These are all smoke and mirrors from what has been demonstrated here: when challenged nobody is willing to stand behind their claims of audible differences!"

>>>>>No, what is clear, however, is that pseudo skeptics won't even test their own ridiculous claims. Real skeptics would at least make some modicum of effort to get to the bottom of things. Pseudo skeptics never do. They keep waiting for someone else to do it then complain when nobody does anything. So, what else is new?😳

Ah yes the bait and switch technique. People don't like the challenging idea that claimed results aren't audible enough to be tested - so now they protest about the use of pronouns, suggest that this is some kind of Nigerian scam and self proclaim that the thread is dead! These are all smoke and mirrors from what has been demonstrated here: when challenged nobody is willing to stand behind their claims of audible differences!