Geez, that’s the best you guys can come up with? Expectation bias? 😬 Give me a break. I can give you at least five reasons off the top of my head why negative results don’t mean anything. I was the Government witness for the testing and evaluator of test results for a multi billion dollar critical communications project. Cables are merely child’s play. Cut me some slack, Jack.
Most Important, Unloved Cable...
Ethernet. I used to say the power cord was the most unloved, but important cable. Now, I update that assessment to the Ethernet cable. Review work forthcoming.
I can't wait to invite my newer friend who is an engineer who was involved with the construction of Fermilab, the National Accelerator Lab, to hear this! Previously he was an overt mocker; no longer. He decided to try comparing cables and had his mind changed. That's not uncommon, as many of you former skeptics know. :)
I had my biggest doubts about the Ethernet cable. But, I was wrong - SO wrong! I'm so happy I made the decision years ago that I would try things rather than simply flip a coin mentally and decide without experience. It has made all the difference in quality of systems and my enjoyment of them. Reminder; I settled the matter of efficacy of cables years before becoming a reviewer and with my own money, so my enthusiasm for them does not spring from reviewing. Reviewing has allowed me to more fully explore their potential.
I find fascinating the cognitive dissonance that exists between the skeptical mind in regard to cables and the real world results which can be obtained with them. I'm still shaking my head at this result... profoundly unexpected results way beyond expectation. Anyone who would need an ABX for this should exit the hobby and take up gun shooting, because your hearing would be for crap.
I can't wait to invite my newer friend who is an engineer who was involved with the construction of Fermilab, the National Accelerator Lab, to hear this! Previously he was an overt mocker; no longer. He decided to try comparing cables and had his mind changed. That's not uncommon, as many of you former skeptics know. :)
I had my biggest doubts about the Ethernet cable. But, I was wrong - SO wrong! I'm so happy I made the decision years ago that I would try things rather than simply flip a coin mentally and decide without experience. It has made all the difference in quality of systems and my enjoyment of them. Reminder; I settled the matter of efficacy of cables years before becoming a reviewer and with my own money, so my enthusiasm for them does not spring from reviewing. Reviewing has allowed me to more fully explore their potential.
I find fascinating the cognitive dissonance that exists between the skeptical mind in regard to cables and the real world results which can be obtained with them. I'm still shaking my head at this result... profoundly unexpected results way beyond expectation. Anyone who would need an ABX for this should exit the hobby and take up gun shooting, because your hearing would be for crap.
609 responses Add your response
jinjuku: In this forum you could have expected these reactions to your testing. Very good example of "Selective
Perception." This is the process by which individuals perceive what they want to...while ignoring opposing viewpoints. It is a broad term to identify the
behavior all people exhibit to tend to "see things" based on their
particular frame of reference. It also describes how we categorize and
interpret sensory information in a way that favors one interpretation over another. In other words, selective perception is a form of
bias because we interpret information in a way that is congruent with our
existing values and beliefs. Psychologists believe this process occurs
automatically. While both sides in this discussion could be demonstrating this trait, only your side was willing to go to the effort to actually do some testing. Since neither side will ever give-in to the other viewpoint, I'm glad we are on the scientifically correct side. |
Geoff, The onus is on the person making wild claims to provide proof. If someone else says it is a scam then those making the wild claim should simply provide proof to the contrary. That is how science works. Jinjuku should have been challenged and easily proved wrong a long time ago( if any of the wild cable claims were the least bit true). Those who are justifiably skeptical do not have to provide proof that the wildest claims are indeed bogus. Every significant leap in technology comes with a repeatible demonstration to convince others of the new scientific discovery. |
Anyone who believes negative results can be used to prove anything is a ____________. If negative results meant anything every Yahoo in the world would be claiming this cable is a scam, that fuse is a scam, this tweak is a scam, that tweak is a scam, etc. Follow? I mean, they already do that, now they’re trying to dress up their statements in some sort of scientific finery. You can paint a turkey different colors, it’s still a turkey. 🦃 When someone wants to join the debate and get noticed but doesn't have a real argument that's usually when the name calling starts. 😄 |
The result could be predicted. Confront the voodoo priests with the experimenttal facts that show they were wrong and they will try to change the rules of the game. As for Geoff and Theo, they of course have a financial stake in perpetuating such deception.I've been surprised that the most vocal of differences are also the most adamant that they simply be trusted without any instrumented verification to further credential the claims made. |
This is the problem with the world population. Some ’hundreds of thousands’ (and more) and into the millions as scattered across the earth, say the earth is flat. That is a humongous blip of statistical significance. Fixed that for you. I thought better context could be provided in couching your response in easier to relate terms. |
Here’s the crux: It’s patently ignorant to support numerous sighted evaluation but pan bias controlled evaluations even when we only have a few instances so far. It’s a single instance farther in the correct direction than any single one of you have actually made it. Again, feel free to have me out with a client / server and your USB DAC and downstream chain. Just cover my travel expenses if you can’t hit 18/20. Honestly, if it takes two weeks for a ’change’ to be ’noticed’ there are other things at play mentally. |
The test has no value for the claimant either.but you are free to believe whatever you want to.The results are what they are. My questions are: When would you be willing to sit for a bias controlled evaluation? How are you able to interject on behalf of the claimant? How do you know it had no value for the claimant? How do you know their custom cable with all it's treatments isn't the equivalent of others in the industry? How do you know what their system sounds like? I do. |
@lalitk How would you describe the difference between the SoTM dCBL-CAT7 and the WireWorld Cat 8 (assuming Starlight)? I've had the Supra Cat8 for the past year and just tried the Wireworld Chroma Cat8 and while the Chroma is more detailed I'm still not sure I prefer it over the Supra just yet. The Supra in my system sounds a little warmer. |
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@grannyring, You make a very valid point. We all waited for this test and it was quite disappointing to see the poor choice of source and cables. I have been saying all along, laptop is not the best renderer to stream music let alone testing out cable differences. To your point, it does take time to fully appreciate a cable in your system. Frankly, this 10-20 second cable swap is nothing but a cheap gimmick. The cables used in this test regardless of price point wouldn’t have yielded any audible differences. A while ago i did a shootout between USB cables using my windows laptop as a source going direct into a $7K DAC and I couldn’t discern any audible differences between Platinum Starlight 7 - $500, Furutech ADL USB - $200 and a $10 USB cable generic printer cable. On flip side, Wireworld Platinum sounded amazing compared to other two USB cables between Aurender N100 / N10 and Modwright Elyse DAC. Coming back to your cable trial, I have tested Wireworld Ethernet Cable in my system and didn’t care for it in a direct comparison with SoTM dCBL-CAT7 and Purist CAT7, YMMV. I am currently using these cables and found them to be best among the one’s I have tested below in my system, Belkin CAT6 SR Active SE CAT6 Purist CAT7 SoTM dCBL-CAT7 AQVOX CAT7 Wireworld CAT 8 (SME) RAL Cryosilver Reference CAT8 Source components: Aurender N10 Bluesound Vault 2 I don’t expect everyone to hear or appreciate audible improvements be it cables, room treatments, fuses and so on. IMHO, cables are just as important as picking out speakers and components. At the end of the day, it comes down to trusting your own ears and enjoying the music. |
All of of this is so system dependent as to make your test rather limited in conclusions. Nothing wrong with your test or trying, but what is true in that one system is often not perfectly transferable to another system. Just the way it is.If the Ethernet connection is implemented properly then it won't be an issue. If you have a device that is susceptible to just 12 out of 328 feet of cabling you have a problem IMO. Even it if I take what you say @ face value I still believe blinded testing is going to change the perception radically. |
I use a Cheap Terra Grand for $10. Will be trying Wireworld. Based on my experience it takes time to really appreciate system changes. I would say at least 3-5 days of various listening sessions.This is easily testable. I could setup a system were the computer is dual homed and remotely I could hit the switch and issue a 'shut' command on one of the interfaces in the LAG. Switch>en Switch# conf t Switch(config)# int fa0/1 or fa0/2 (whatever the interfaces are) Switch(config-if) shut or no shut That's it. I could remote in after two weeks and make a change, or one week, or 22 days. What have you. Just black box the entire thing. |
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. One test means nothing. Blind test, ABA, AB, what have you. A test cannot prove anything, but it certainly cannot prove that there are no differences among cables if the results are negative. Too many things can go wrong, even when everyone is on the up and up and trying to be thorough, etc. Geez, even disrupting the connections when unplugging and plugging cables during testing changes the whole playing field. Come on, people! No offense to anyone testing but don’t try to pull the wool over anyone’s eyes. Lets start with some logic: 1. When normally hearing differences in cables a cable swap is required. So nothing is being done that already hasn't. 2. One test and the outcome only has value for the claimant. I've said nothing concrete about anyone else. I have said this emboldens my belief that others would perform about the same. 3. I can concretely say that in the system we had that you personally could not tell when the connections were changed. So what is your confidence level in your ears only evaluation? |
I agree with @geoffkait I use a Cheap Terra Grand for $10. Will be trying Wireworld. Based on my experience it takes time to really appreciate system changes. I would say at least 3-5 days of various listening sessions. So I will give it a week or so before jumping to a conclusion. All of of this is so system dependent as to make your test rather limited in conclusions. Nothing wrong with your test or trying, but what is true in that one system is often not perfectly transferable to another system. Just the way it is. If I don’t hear an improvement I certainly won’t buy another ethernet cable. I will certainly report back here. I actually have an open mind about this, but I realize what I report back on is simply based on my set of ears and my system. |
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. One test means nothing. Blind test, ABA, AB, what have you. A test cannot prove anything, but it certainly cannot prove that there are no differences among cables if the results are negative. Too many things can go wrong, even when everyone is on the up and up and trying to be thorough, etc. Geez, even disrupting the connections when unplugging and plugging cables during testing changes the whole playing field. Come on, people! No offense to anyone testing but don’t try to pull the wool over anyone’s eyes. |
I’m willing to do this again if feasible. But really not willing to eat travel costs to do so. But man we had a good time. WGUtz knows a ton about property management/leasing etc. I probably asked him a million questions about the subject. Most likely to the point of exhausting him on the matter :-) |
Not attempting to do anything but learn what you did. I can’t read your mind and know what you did in the past or even what a “custom”cable is? What is it? No reason to attack and be rude. Your test is still ambiguous to me and others as we have no idea what the custom cable is. Simple to understand my point here right?We evaluated a claim: That someone hears a difference in cable A vs B regardless of anything else. I’ve posted in this thread before what cabling I tested with in the past. More than once. Sorry about snapping about that. Custom cable in this instance is General Cable CAT6A and Siemons industrial 6A terminations and Cryo-Treament. Honestly it doesn’t matter what the cable is. I wasn’t testing the cable I was testing the claim. Later in the day (we did the bias controlled evaluation around 3PM) we were just exploring what each of us listens to. I had my laptop logged in with his Tidal account and playing music back and while talking just kept switching out cabling without interruption. He said he thought my laptop rendered any cabling changes moot. Simply couldn’t hear a difference because the entire track had been cached by Tidal. Same for JRiver (I had the buffer set for the default 6 seconds). So we had the discussion of: If you have two devices and one changes it’s sound character based on the cabling, and the other renders it moot, and the one that renders it moot sounds good... The other issue we had in setup is that the AQ DBS RCA cabling was really touchy. I thought AQ had lifetime warranty only to find out the last cable he sent in for repair cost $150. The REPAIR cost $150, not the cable. Yikes. So I consider that part of the evaluation compromised. When you have to play with the cable where the jacket enters the RCA plug assembly to achieve full output I’m not sure how you could consider that optimum. |
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Not attempting to do anything but learn what you did. I can’t read your mind and know what you did in the past or even what a “custom”cable is? What is it? No reason to attack and be rude. Your test is still ambiguous to me and others as we have no idea what the custom cable is. Simple to understand my point here right? |
WGUtz has a custom, 5 meter, cryo-treated, cable.
The other cable was a 30 meter cable costing $13 shipped.
He certainly had a highly resolving setup. Going through this in a persons own setup it certainly added weight to my previous findings and I’m much more comfortable now in wanting to test out in other peoples systems. Wish it would have been for the $$. I’ve also had this done with a $700 Nordost 1 meter, $340 AQ 1 meter, $330 Wireworld 3 meter. Please stop attempting to put your head in the sand over this fact. |
You used poor quality cable and thus the test has limited learnings for most of us. Too bad really. Should have tried some nice Wireword etc..., By poor quality, I mean common wire and shielding sort of like comparing Radio Shack speaker wire to Lowe’s speaker wire. I would have been interested in Radio Shack vs Wireworld as an example. Why did you leave out the high quality cables made by Purest or Wireworld and others? Your test missed the mark important to audiophiles. |
All I know is that someone that was sure they could hear differences in cabling only hit 6 out of 10. They had a 3 meter Best Buy Insignia they they insisted was just all sorts of horrible. Brought that up and put it into my system and even sighted he was having great difficulty hearing what he previously thought. Here’s a tidbit for Tidal users: Tidal caches the entire track so you can remove the cable and the track will play. If you have a reasonably fast connection you could have an entire track queued up in 10 seconds. This only re-affirms my conviction that if anyone did have me out that they would be learning an important lesson about how much faith they put into their ears. After this recent visit I'm even more certain in the validity of my position. |
If different ethernet cables have audible differences then it stands to reason that IOP will be an even bigger factor. It would not make sense to run listening tests on various ethernet cables without testing such a key factor as IOP at the same time. On the flip side if IP is robust enough to go over wifi, ethernet, optical or IOP and through countless servers reliably and perfectly then there should be no audible difference between various cables and/or IOP (if all the components work properly) |
Another piece of information which might be useful; I have used some of the cabling for several years, before I went to the IOP setup for streaming audio. Prior to that I had a Mac Mini and used it wirelessly to do streaming. I also have used CD transport and DAC. In all these cases the character of the cabling used has never shifted or wandered when using them. i.e. Whether from transport, wirelessly, or IOP the cables when used in loom or comparison have never shifted in sonic character such that I was given problems using them precisely as I wish, relying upon the character of their innate sonic properties to build systems. I would think that had there been a problem moving to the IOP I would have heard it and it would have altered the performance of the cables I move about regularly. There *may* be some effect of the IOP, but if so it has been so insignificant in my case that it is negligible. :) |
I think, based on experience, it is close to impossible to translate what one hears to another’s set up. The Terra low cost cable is very warm in my system...not at all bright? Why? My system is different. I go directly from the modem to my Music Vault computer using the Terra with no switches or routers etc... I found this cable far warmer sounding than the generic Cat 6 in prior use. My gear is also different from Doug’s. Sometimes what one hears from a given wire or component just does not translate in the same manner in another home and system. This must be particularly true with Ethernet cables? Certainly possible with all the various ways we all get the internet signal to our gear. |
@douglas_schroeder I haven’t been able to find much discussion for good or bad on high-end forums about IOP. The point is occasionally made that it can adversely affect certain components(a Burmester was mentioned). Others report or speculate that Ethernet over an AC circuit underscores the importance of good power conditioning to address high frequency noise. Others report affects of noise from appliances, motors, etc. running on the same circuit or across the mains. I agree that if you use IOP and are still able to hear differences between wires --and your computer audio system is also performing at an historic high-- then your cable comparison is valuable. However, one could raise a question as to the extent of interaction between the end cables and the IOP. Would the outcome have been different if these cables were used in a system without IOP? My CPU setup (QNAP i5 NAS> SoTM-modified D-Link hub> SOtM SMS-200ultra> SOtM USBultra > USB> Esoteric K-01X), is wired based more upon principles accepted for audio than for computer networking. All music devices and the network are inside the audio room on their own bridged subnet connected by short Ethernet cables. I found that this subnet approach improved upon a 50’ Ethernet to an internet router in another room. Performance issues may have been caused by the long cable run, the cable itself(generic CAT7) or perhaps by the lack of isolation from noise and/or OSI Layer 3 activity propagated by the internet router. I’ll add that the SoTM-modified hub contributes to the "upgrade": that hub and the two other SoTM components on the Ethernet, are all slaved to a common master clock. Obviously computer audio is a minefield of interdependent variables, of which ethernet cabling is one. |
@douglas_schroeder This is good information to have on hand. I've had some issues with my cable company being forthcoming to install a new line etc. so I can be direct in my internet feed to the audio room. I have defaulted to using Google Mesh, which btw is working very well. It's terrific to know that I can explore internet feeds over IOP as an option. I would like to commend you for this review. These are not conducted often and I know cabling reviews are not the highest priority (nor easiest and fun) for professional reviewers. Thanks for the review as well as your response above. It is appreciated. |
I had a great day hanging with William and geeking out. Went to his friend Gordon's and enjoyed some bourbon and his custom speaker system. 1st off: Williams system simply images and layers. Pin point accurate. Really good sweet spot. Did have some issues with a channel due to some cabling but that was sorted out post haste. I brought a 100 foot ribbon style CAT6 that was ~$13 delivered from Amazon, Cisco SG 200-08, BJC 3 meter 6a, Emotiva DC-1. We did both sighted and blinded evaluation of the 5 meter DIY vs the 30 meter machined. Honestly I couldn't hear a difference on either his laptop or mine. William thought his laptop was more sensitive to cabling and I believe he thought mine was nullifying any cable differences or making any changes so minute as to being immaterial. On the blinded evaluation it was 6 of 10 correct. He did some switching blind for me and I was simply guessing. For me there was no real ahah! moment. If we spent 30 seconds without music playing, and regardless of cable used, when resumed it always sounded the best and then immediately looping the playback would diminish. Wait another 30 - 60 seconds and the first playback always sounded best. I think it's like any endeavor, you tend to do best after a bit of a break. William liked the DC-1 DAC. His Wadia 121 is nice and I REALLY liked the remote for it. Pure sit in your chair convenience. Just wanted to again say thanks to William for the terrific hospitality and it was a blast. If anyone else bumps into William out and about: Ask him about his rock collection ;-) |
dgarrestson, what specifically is your concern about the validity of the findings? I think it significant that I listened to the aftermarket Ethernet cables placed only after the household wiring. Then, eventually I placed another segment of aftermarket Ethernet cable ahead of the household wiring as well. imo, I demonstrated that similar to the situation with power cabling, the presence of a "weak" upstream element does not render downstream improvements null. As to the validity of the sound quality for assessment, I submit two thoughts. I have been using the internet over power for many months now, and it has had no effect on being able to assess differences between other cables (i.e. IC, SC) and components. As to sound quality, both myself and friends who are familiar long term with systems I build have found recent rigs (since the household wiring has been in use) to be the best I have built. i.e. The use of the household wiring has not impaired my ability to build rigs as good or better than in the past. When I originally moved to use the IOP protocol I was fearful that it would decimate the sound quality. As I have no way to conduct a direct comparison I cannot say that it has had little deleterious effect on sound quality. However, it has not prevented me from getting better performance from streaming audio than a couple years ago. Hopefully this answers some concerns about the IOP setup in the review. |
@grannyring Thank @douglas_schroeder : ) I recently compared USB cables and the Wireworld 7 Platinum Starlight is a good overall choice. As you know, system and goal dependent etc. I'm curious to see if something other than the Supra CAT8s I'm using can have an impact. I use SotM, with filter, for the main / final link (network switch to DDC) and am happy with it. |
Here is Doug's @douglas_schroeder comparison from Dagogo https://www.dagogo.com/audio-blast-ethernet-cables-xlr-y-adapters-survey/ |
