MHDT Orchid or Lampizator Amber 3?
I didn't realize you got the A OK from Jiun! Thanks. I did notice in the specs that the gain from the 6SN7 tube is lower than the 396A; maybe not quite enough to be noticeable, and, maybe as a buffer, gain is not an issue anyway. Will be interesting to hear what your findings are. This is indeed one helluva great sounding dac with grannyrings mods and the SR Orange fuse. Yes, I admit it, I am a grannyring 'fan boy'. |
Do they support 6SN7 tubes with the proper adapter (Garage1217)? In all our dacs, tube is acting as a buffer.Subjective/anecdotal impressions would suggest that 6SN7 tubes do indeed work. |
rx8man You may be much more technically savvy than me, but I just looked up the specs on a 6SN7 tube and compared them to the 396A tube. Whereas the specs for a 6DJ8 appear to be pretty equivalent, unless I am reading things incorrectly (which could very well be the case!), the specs for the 6SN7 appear to be quite different. Maybe no damage to the dac would happen, but I wonder how those differences in specs will impact the sound. |
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That is great! Let us know the result. The new tube will need 40-60 hours of play time. I am really interested in the big bottle cv181 6sn7 equivalent and how it will sound. The top plate tube hole will need to be expanded a bit using a simple step up drill bit. I bet this one tube ends up being very special. My audio buddy should be trying one today or tomorrow. |
Well it seems this little MHDT Orchid has more tricks up it’s tiny sleeve! This is not a dac you just plug and play and expect to get the most out of it. One of my customers and a good audio buddy purchased the Orchid with my upgrades and just loves it. He is also a big tweaker and decided to try the tube rolling idea which goes beyond the WE tube LTA sells with the Orchid. Well he purchased a tube socket adaptor from this vendor.... http://www.garage1217.com/garage1217_diy_tube_headphone_amplifiers_012.htm He purchased the one at the bottom of the page so he could use his Siemen & Halske E88CC Gold pin tube. His unit has my upgrades, the SR Orange fuse and now the tube socket to roll E88CC tubes. He was so excited with the outcome that he could hardly contain himself. The soundstage grew well beyond the sides of the speakers and also became taller. He commented it was like opening the flood gates. The new tube can play at louder volumes with a greater ease and smoothness. He felt the overall improvement was on the order of 20%. Now this is in his system and your mileage may vary. He also purchased a 6sn7 socket adaptor and will roll some very nice 6sn7 tubes this weekend. This will be most interesting! What a fun little dac that can with some diligence and attention to the details be made to sound far better than stock.....and the stock unit is no slouch! The Orchid is the little dac that could! |
@alexberger I have owned Chord Mojo, Qutest w/ high-end linear power supply, old Qute HD w/ battery power supply etc. and now own Border Patrol SE. BP SE Dac sounds better to my ears even if BP supports only up to 24/96. (And Amber 3 and modded Orchid seem to sound better than BP SE according to many other Audiogon members) |
@facten if you find yourself in Nashville you’re welcome to stop by my shop; I have a LampizatOr Golden Atlantic TRP on the floor along with other fine lines that may pique your curiosity. - Colin https://gestalt.audio |
I bought the LaVoce S3 back in October without auditioning to give the Aqua brand a try. I've stopped tracking the hours but would guess it has close to 300 on it. To my ears it's a musically engaging DAC with a balanced sound. I haven't heard the LaScala, but may see if Atelier 13 in Nashville will allow me to make a trip up from the Memphis area and accommodate me for a listen and possible comparison with my S3. Since I have been breaking in and enjoying the S3 I haven't put my Modwright Elyse DAC (6922 tubes) back into my main system but will in a couple of weeks to see which one I prefer in it. Speakers - Daedalus Argos V2s Amps - I rotate between these every two or three weeks for a different flavor : Modwright LS100 6SN7 pre & KWA100 SE solid state power ; Line Magnetic 518 IA integrated; Finale Audio 7189 MK2 integrated Transports - Cambridge CXC; Wadia 171i Analogue & Digital Interconnects - Silnote Audio (various models) Power Cables - Audio Art Cable (various models) Speaker Cables - Clear Day Cable double shotgun |
My same friend purchased the AM Tubadour dac ( one step down from the SE) and returned it after the trial period in favor of the S3 LaVoce. He felt it was just a tad flat and plain sounding. He has the Don Sachs 6sn7 preamp, McIntosh M452 amp, Innuos Zenith server, my cables and Legacy Signature SE speakers. I like the LaVoce S3 dac and the Aqua brand. . I have always wanted to hear the Mojo Audio Mystique dac. Ben of Mojo is vocal about his dislike of any tube dac claiming tubes have no place in dacs. He suggests they are too noisy and limited in performance for use in digital front ends. Ha! Very opinionated guy for sure. |
@facten Not in my system but same system, side by side. I thought the S3 was a fine dac but kindof unremarkable. In short, the La Scala does most everything better to my ears (the S3 MAY have had a slight bass advantage, very slight if at all), especially when it comes to dynamic swings and the music feeling alive rather than just "played back". Maybe 30 minutes on each dac is all that day. I believe the Tubadour is better than the S3 for my tastes. |
Hmmmmm, it would be interesting to know your buddy’s system, soup to nuts, from the wall to the ear. You are correct though, its all a matter of what sounds right to the individual. I’ve had some great dacs and someone somewhere has declared each of them as end game pieces. That’s why I always try to be objective that every person must make up their own mind and decide what works best in their circumstances: the room, the room, the ac, the cables, the electronic chain, the room....I’m not one of those chasing the latest greatest but I know what I prefer. I know what music I enjoy sounds like. I had to make a decision a long time ago as I had aspirations of being a professional musician. I got that out of my system pretty quickly as the best in the business had holes in their shoes. Not for me, so I guess I wasn’t driven enough to be a musician if it meant living hand-to-mouth. Anyway, I guess I’m also a bit of a tube guy as well. Other than my Innuos, every piece of gear I have uses tubes. I keep trying though and the Nagra Classic Dac/Classic integrated got very close for me. Peace. |
My audio buddy owned the La Scala MKIII Opto and sold it as he preferred the LaVoce S3 in his system. Just goes to show how real personal preferences and system synergy is. No kidding, he loves the S3! The La Scala just could not please him over the long run. He upgraded tubes, but still liked the S3 more. He had the very latest MKIII from the factory which sounded better than an earlier version of the MKIII. He mention to the manufacturer how both MKIII units sounded very different. The builder said they had used better solder and certain parts were upgraded. Well my friend heard the difference! Still liked the S3 more than the latest La Scala. |
The S2 was not great, the S3...I don’t want to offend anyone but its kindof average sounding. I like most of the dacs discussed in this thread better but everyone should trust their own ears. I’m not sure I understand the logic of having that dac on the market at that retail pricepoint. For a company capable of building the La Scala and the Formula, it just doesnt make alot of sense to me. A company’s entry level product ought to be a gateway drug. |
@grannyring My main dac is presently an Aqua La Scala MkII Optologic with a pair of NOS Mullard 6201 tubes installed. It replaced a Nagra Classic dac which replaced a Totaldac D1-Tube-MkII which replaced a Chord Dave. All have been fed by an Innuos Zenith MkIII via a Final Touch Audio Callisto USB cable. I’ve run it single ended and balanced and the balanced outputs sound ever so slightly better. The Amber 3 and the La Scala are both terrific, the La Scala is overall more refined. A more elegant top to bottom presentation but there are some areas where the differences are negligible or even in the Amber’s favor(like bass and layering). The Aqua build quality is off the hook good, both dacs have a proven upgrade path. If you were demoing the La Scala and the Amber 3, single ended, at home and didn’t own either it would be difficult to justify the price differential. |
Come on guys, lay off @teajay the Lab12 dac was well reviewed by @teajay and it was done in an A vs B vs aural memory of other higher end dacs. He stated his opinion and went on the record. He never said “this is the finest dac that will ever be made” he said “this is a fine dac”. He also never said “I’ve heard everything out there and this is it, the chosen one”. To his great credit, and this can not be overstated, he has tried other gear and isn’t afraid to say “hey, I heard something better”. To me, this is a big deal and gives his impressions on a given item even more credibility. Unlike many who review gear, he isn’t afraid to say he has heard something he likes better. It doesn’t invalidate his prior reviews, it actually provides context and a hierarchy along his review chronology. @teajay likes the Tubadour that came his way spontaneously and organically through this forum. That’s awesome guys! For those who are certain that all professional reviewers are “on the take” need only visit this thread to discover, on the contrary, we have someone who was open minded and open to the idea of trying something he hadn’t heard, objectively evaluating it and then going on record. Shouldn’t this be celebrated rather than people taking potshots that he didn’t marry the Lab12 for life? Keep up the great work @teajay , you have alot of fans out here who appreciate what you are doing, how you go about it and most of all, for posting your opinions here and not just in your writings for web-zines. You and I may not always share the same level of appreciation for certain pieces of gear but most on here aren’t looking for someone to guide their purchase decisions, they are looking for another data point to determine if a test drive would be beneficial. To anyone who bought a Lab12 dac based solely on his review, you got a fine dac. If you are disappointed that he was unwilling to cast his affection for the Lab12 in stone there are many more of us out here who are thrilled that there is a “professional reviewer” categorically willing to tell the truth. Even if it means leaving a former love for a new love. Thanks @teajay !,, |
Yes my Amber is still changing for the better at over 300 hours. Another thing we need to consider is the input we are using. I know the Amber 3’s USB input is one of its strong suits and possibly the best input to use depending on your server/transport. Will the coax sound as good? Maybe, or maybe not. My system is maxed out and tweaked out for superb USB sound. Also, DSD recordings do sound better with the Amber 3 and the other two units can’t go there. No doubt DSD sounds better than the same recording non-DSD in my system. The Amber 3 lets me hear those sonic benefits while the others don’t. I have a lot of DSD recordings. Finally, I use a no gain preamp that benefits from the added drive of the Amber over the other two dacs. This is where system synergy really influences my system and preferences. The Orchid can be taken to new sonic heights with rightly chosen parts in key positions. One needs to know those exact resistor positions and exact values. The output caps must be Vcap Odam 2.2uf and Vcap CuTF .01 uf bypass. The combo is magic in the Orchid. All fun! |
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@teajay Thanks for the reply. I’m not exactly sure why people get angry or snarky, you merely report your observations and we all can either choose to benefit from your findings or not. Its just audio folks. Our own observations may differ or align but isn’t that what’s fun? Regarding break in, I was always a skeptic but have become a little more open minded about it. Cables, especially if they happen to have inline networks, do take a bit of time. Tube gear, does take a bit of time. Tube gear with tube rectification or tubes in the power supplies seem to take longer still. I dont quite understand why and I used to be mildly dismissive until I experienced my first truly painful break in experience with an Audio Research Ref 5se preamp. I made the assumption it had to do with 4 tubes in the pre and 2 tubes in the power supply. The most painful break in period though was with the Amber 3. I’m going to guess it was to do with the tube rectification, I don’t know. If someone asked me I would honestly have to say to expect the Amber 3 to come into its own after 400 hours and it still evolves after 500. I know this because I first experienced the Amber 3 in my system by placing a well broken in demo unit into rotation. I then received my brand new unit and it flat out sounded broken. No joke, broken. Today it doesn’t but thats after a long (500+ hours) breakin, a NOS 12au7 tube and setting it to low gain. It isn’t my lead dac in my main system but it does occupy a place in my office system, anchored by a Leben cs600x. The Amber 3 is a fine dac, the Tubadour is a fine dac, the Orchid is a fine dac as was the Border Patrol. For this system, for what I was after, I sold all of these except the Amber 3. Once again, I wasnt test driving these, I owned them. The cost of entry didnt enter into my decision because (gratefully) this isn’t my rent money. Its entertainment. BUT...BUT...if anyone reading this believes that any one of the aforementioned dacs is right and the others sound broken, dont believe them. They are each terrific and each suitable for the long term enjoyment of the purchaser. Dont for a minute though believe these are end game giant killer pieces. They are not going to put Aqua or Totaldac or Lampizator or MSB out of business. They are, however, so good that the law of diminishing returns requires a sanity check for each of us. It used to be that dacs up to a certain pricepoint were unlistenable, now, we are lucky that that is no longer the case. |
Here's some information regarding the above stated questions: 1) facten- we have done this dance before- if what I wrote in my review or on this thread does not satisfy what you are looking for, that's your problem and not mine. I believe that what I wrote is pretty clear about my position regarding these different DACs. 2) Grannyring- I believe my friend's mods to the Orchid were very close to yours, and yes it made an improvement, but not to the degree that it was on the same level as the Audio Mirror SE piece. The Amber 3 had many hundreds of hours on it, so burn-in was not an issue. Also, Bill your statement regarding different gear, subjective taste, different room acoustics, and system synergy is spot on. Therefore, everyone must try these different pieces to see if they can get what they want in their own systems. I don't want to start a fight, but sometimes I wonder if it takes hundreds or thousands of hours of break-in/burn-in to get the piece's performance to change for the better, or do we hear it or experience it differently because of our mood/intent over a very lengthy period of time. Frankly, I have never had a piece of gear that started out sounding lousy, blossom into something superlative much later. I have had many pieces for review that sounded excellent right out of the crate, and then got better with around 50 to 150 hours of burn-in. 3) ghasley- First thanks for the kind words regarding what I share here and in my reviews. Yes, you got the order correct, regarding the DACs in my home system. |
@teajay for those of us keeping score at home, presently in your system, you have a stock Orchid, a stock Amber 3 and the upgraded Tubadour? Then to that trio you inserted temporarily an upgraded Orchid? I just want to understand the sequencing. On a personal note, thank you for all you do for our hobby. |
One last interesting point. The Amber 3 I now listen to is a completely different sounding dac than the new one I played for 12 straight days 24/7. One would be reviewing or auditioning two different dacs really. Post break in with upgraded fuse and 12au7 the Amber 3 sings with a much different voice. One needs substantial time and attention to details to hear what this dac is capable of. I almost gave up, but am glad I did not. Patience paid off this time. Hard for me to always be patient. |
Would need to know the parts used in the upgraded Orchid. That makes a big difference. Don’t know if apples to apples. Please let us know the output caps used, SR Orange fuse, Zfoil resistors etc... Other parts don’t work as well in sonic areas you and many others find most important. The Vcap combo of Odam and CuTF is a must on the output. Zfoil resistors are also a must. The Amber 3 must have at least 300 hours of play to hear what it really sounds like. Anything less, then one does not really hear it. Also, the Amber responds wonderfully to an added SR Orange fuse and nice NOS 12au7 from Amperex or Brimar. If just given a short addition with a new(er) Amber the magic is missed and the Amber’s potential unrealized. She needs time and attention to details to sound her best. Finally, all these dacs are placed in systems, rooms and ears that have a starting sound personality and real sound preferences. No doubt system synergy and preferences play a substantial role with the particular dac one would enjoy the most. Just the way it is in audio as nothing is ever universally accepted as best for all persons in all systems. Audiophile reality. |
Hey facten1, First, the Orchid is extremely well built, uses a great sounding NOS Phillips DAC chip, and costs $1,500 less then the Troubadour. If there is any objectivity vs. personal taste in this hobby, the Audio Mirror does performs on a higher level. However, this higher level of performance will only be revealed if the rest of the system has enough resolution to allow it to shine through. Therefore, the Audio Mirror DAC does not make the Orchid null and void, just a great sounding DAC at a more affordable price point, that would be great in many less costly systems. If I could not afford the Troubadour, I would not loss sleep over it, and still get immense pleasure out of the Mhdlab piece. However, the Troubadour 3 SE takes everything to even a higher level of musical enjoyment. |
teajay - Given your assessment of the Troubadour vs the upgraded Orchid and the Lampi how is the stock Orchid still a "great piece" ? You note the that upgraded Orchid is better than the stock version, yet you characterize the upgraded Orchid and Lampi as falling "quite short of the magic", lower in performance on all parameters , and having less liquidity and sense of intimacy than the Troubadour? |
Hi gentlemen, I have reviewed the Orchid professionally for Six Moons, gave it a rave review, purchased the demo and still think the stock version is a great piece. Just recently a good friend who does high quality modding of his gear, brought over his Orchid that virtually had all the parts/modifications that Grannyring recommends. Yes, it performs on a higher level then the stock Orchid. However , both the modified Orchid and the Amber 3, in my system, fall quite short of the "magic" that is rendered by the Audio Mirror Troubadour III SE DAC. Across, on all parameters ( tonality/color, micro-details/transparency, sound-staging /air around instruments/layering, and powerful dynamics) it performed on a higher basis. It also delivered the highest level of liquidity and a sense of intimacy/attachment with the music compared to the other DACs. These differences were easy to hear on all types of genres of music. So, yes if it's in your budget the Troubadour is worth the $ upswing, compared to a modified Orchid, and I believe it is slightly less expensive then the Amber 3 DAC. |
The Siemen tube sounds like it could be a great alternative, given the write up on Brent Jessee's website. I've tended toward the midrange of nos Mullard tubes in my previously owned tube preamp. But either way, if a 6DJ8 variant brings my Grannyrings' modded Orchid dac up to yet another level, holy cow! |
