Bvdiman, yes and very interesting your horn analogy. My Magico salesman also use the horn analogy describing Tad but without the sub integration problems.
I don't want anything boring and not only hearing, but feeling the dynamic swings with my heart racing. This is one of the most important requirements for my components/system.
Also Magico's bass with it's sealed enclosure design is not as impactful and extended ... just sounds different but superior to the V3 if my memory is correct
It's amazing how someone familiar with all these speakers on my list and have a different conclusion but I respect his opinion. This is the reason it's important to audition any purchase and not just accept advice on a free internet forum. |
What Knghifi is referring to is the sound of a cone break-up, which the TAD has plenty of starting at 6K (See JA measurements).
It is a similar phenomenon in ALL Accuton based speakers as well (i.e. Tidal, Avalon etc). Some audiophiles mistaken that sound for immediacy - as in inherent lively sound. |
Usermanual,
Was actually just aligning my thoughts with Knghifi impressions of TAD and his usage/choice of words.
Heck, anyway don't listen to measurements, nor to what reviewers have to say anymore. My musical enjoyment is sole goal, hence use my ears and vouch with my money - mistaken or not - who are you to say? Moreover, if that immediacy (involvement) that draws me in into the music is really a mistake, then I'd rather have it wrong all my life.
Btw.You a Magico dealer? (Gathering from all your almost exclusively Magico's related posts). No doubt Magico makes some good speakers (they are not alone!), but you are promoting them in ways detrimental to itself, imo. Seemingly, for one to like/prefer other brand here is a crime deserving some kind of pot shots/condescending remarks. Thus, not in the spirit of friendly discussions nor sharing of experiences anymore. Lighten up, its only a hobby! |
Just spent the morning listening to my S5 (with the new grills attached). Didn't get a sense the grills take anything away sonically and they look great. For kicks I put the Magnepan 3.7 speakers in the mix and A/B versus the Magico S5, using same equipment (Benz LP-S/Graham Phantom Suprmeme/Clearaudio Innovation Wood to Herron phono preamp to VAC Ren Mk III pre to VAC 450S amp.
As good as I thought the Maggies are with speed, air, resolution, harmonics....the Magico's beat them by a wide margin in every department, and then brought slam, dynamics, and a new couple of registers of bass. No grain or hash. Smooth and articulate with incredible extension. While the bass is a big step up, it isn't just the reach, it is the absolute articulation...zero muddiness or slop. For me the S5 speakers' hat trick is total resolution and extension but with coherence and flow/timbre/musicality (versus analytical etchiness). Now I just need to find my summer amp (leaning toward Hegel H30). And, I'm experimenting with which speaker taps to use on VAC. Moving from the 2-4ohm to 4-8 changed things a bit. |
I listened to the S1, S5 and Q3 at HANSEN Audio in Dayton.
First, I thought that ALL the MAGICO speakers were very well like one another in their tonal balance. True, the room to my ear, favored the S1 (not the speaker's fault).
My impressions, on all three, are amazing levels of resolution. Voices seem textured oh so well. I'm a mid range fanatic as I listen to mostly folk type music; Cat Stevens, Linda Ronstadt, Seals and Croft, Peter Paul and Mary ETC. MAGICO's approach electrostatic levels of detail like no other dynamic cone driver speaker I've yet heard. And, the air suspension system allows them to go deep in a smaller box, at some efficiency limits. So buy more watts. I have a MOON W-8 that would be fine, a very neutral amplifier.
Faults are, and this is NOT actually true...yet, is that they really put you in a SPOT to hear the "magic". Move left or right of that spot and the image collapses into itself rapidly. They still sound very open, so this isnt as bad a sin as some speakers that HAVE to reach out to one another to sound good, one MAGICO is darn good sounding! Yes, to get the level of resolution they may HAVE to limit the dispersion, true. This isn't unheard of (pun intended).
MAGICO owners, do you listen off axis (sure, I admit it, I lie on the couch off to the side more than half the time and just chill out to the stereo instead of the TV) and still get pretty good center imaging? My C4's don't mind off axis seats at all, and hang onto their virtues extremely well.
I am somewhat captivated by this speakers resolution capabilities. The highs may seem "bright" only because they are so open and float in space and depth. Bass is the visceral tight bass you feel (and I LIKE IT!). Don't know how deep it really goes. I use Two DD10+ subs with my C4's to get truly flat to 25 Hz.
The C4 signatures image like crazy no matter where you sit. They have a super smooth nice sound, but not the resolution that the MAGICO's have. No way. The C4's are good, the MAGICO's are simply killing the category on detail. The S5's would be the best "version" to fill a pretty large room and produce a decently robust sound stage (the C4's do that very easily). Not to mention, I can't ever afford the Q3.
I can see why MAGICO owners like this speaker; detail, detail, detail without the electrostatic dynamic range limitations. Still I'd have to listen for awhile to make sure it isn't too much. I'll admit, when you first listen to a speaker like this, you get sort of blown away by the finely drawn lines of resolution around everything. You have to re-learn your music again. But oh that midrange. I listened to K.D. Lang and Oh my, if angels do exist. OK, I bought the CD the next day. Still thinking about those S5's, though.
They are indeed expensive, but seem to be a category killer for openness and detail. The new S5 is a well-placed speaker. Some say that they have a MAGICO house sound (I do) but they must mean that in a good way. Few speakers try to have no sound as much as these do. If this product can hang in there off axis (it has to match my life style) it could be waiting for me some day.
For those that have just that one seat, bravo for you! |
Spent the last few days speaking with Scott Walker in California. This dude rocks. He obsesses perfection like all of us do. Never met the guy in person, but I can tell he wants, he needs, he wishes for me to realize the full potential of my Magico S5s. He's like Jack Nicholoson in "A Few Good Men"..."...you want me on that wall; you need me on that wall..." He was direct with me on the phone about what I needed to do to get my room and equipment right. I tested to make sure he wasn't just about selling me new equipment or gadgets....the fact he probed and questioned and discussed a whole bunch of stuff on my system and room setup leads me to believe he is the real deal. I'm flying him up to personally assess and configure my system and room. Money well spent. The beauty of our hobby and passion is guys like Scott who obsess perfection (and therefore support brands like Magico), go the extra mile, so we can fully realize the potential of our systems...which...speaking for myself...I've invested a lot of dough.... |
Just visited and listened to magico S5 at a dealer using soulutions mono....
sounded more like a stage concert speakers to me.. |
Aprica, your brief commment leaves it open ended as to weather you liked, or didn't like the S5's. If not, then would you care to elaborate what you didn't like about them? |
Heard the S5 using VAC 450s and it sounds a lot better.
More coherent
I should give credit to the VAC Statement 450. |
@Aprica88, the Vacs have a bit of an advantage since Magico voice their speakers with Vac amps, though in general the S5's sound best with high quality amps which are either tubed, or tube-like and have good power and control. The big Vitus amps, Dartzeel, Gryphon and Vac's big mono blocks come to mind. Boulder also sounds great, though for synergy would benefit from warm sounding cables such as Siltech or Jorma Prime & a warm sounding source like a vinyl deck, tubed cdp or something like a Vitus SCD-025. As always, it's all about synergy. |
I agree that Magico sounds nice with some warmth somewhere in the chain. I use Pass XA160.5 with my Mini 2s. I'm curious why they always demo at shows with Spectral gear and MIT cables.
I think it's a very detailed sound, but the best I've heard the Q series sound at my local dealer who shows with Spectral and MIT is when they use either a Basis or SME turntable. Much more natural to my ears than with the hi rez digital servers that are also in the system. |
@Peterayer, the Pass xa.5 amps are very nice indeed. I could imagine the XA160.5 would have good synergy with your Mini 2's, and the XA200.5 even moreso given the Mini's 87db effiency. As for the S5's, Magico have been quoted as stating an 87db figure which agrees with HiFi News lab results which also showed a moderate 2.5ohm impedance dip, so 400 watts should be about right for the S5.
Btw, the best i've heard the Q1's sound was with a Vitus SIA-025, SCD-010 cdp & Siltech Royal Sig series cables. That combination was incredibly natural and pure. Just a match made in Heaven. And I wouldn't describe Vitus as a super fast amp by any means. |
I've got an eye (or perhaps better, an ear) on the Magico S5s. Just caught this bench test report, here:
www DOT soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1043:nrc-measurements-magico-s5-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153
Knowing what I know after many years of breaking my technical teeth, I am very impressed by these bench test reports. Especially the impedance and phase angle plots. The flat frequency response and ultra low distortion numbers are equally impressive.
I guess that leave me with the one unanswered question ... the most important question. How do they sound?
I intend to find out an will report back if I get a chance to audition them.
BIF |
Bruce (Bifwynne), re the impedance magnitude and phase angle plots for the S5, while the variation of impedance magnitude as a function of frequency is a good deal less than on many speakers, including your present ones, I would consider the S5's impedance characteristics to be quite demanding.
The impedance magnitude appears to be at or below 3 ohms from around 50 Hz to around 150 Hz, and also throughout the top octave. With phase angles that are significantly negative (capacitive) in much of those regions, including a particularly severe combination of low impedance and highly capacitive phase angles in the 50 to 75 Hz area, where a lot of energy is often required.
See also the post in this thread by Elberoth2 dated 11-29-12.
My guess is that your ARC REF 150 would be able to handle all of that with relative aplomb (using the 4 ohm tap), but I'm not sure that it or most other amps would fully sound their best in doing so.
Just my $0.02. Best,
-- Al
|
Thanks for the tip Al. I read Elberoth's post -- an EPDR of 1 ohm in the low bass --uuhhm. Might as well just short my amp and save the cost of buying the S5s.
Interestingly, I recall seeing some posts that said that Alon Wolf voices his speaker on VAC gear. Al ... that's you brand amp isn't it?
I wonder if Mr. Wolf needs a tractor trailer to haul the largest VAC amp made into his factory. I gather his speakers will soak up as much watts as can be thrown at them.
I'll proceed with caution.
Thanks Al. |
Bruce, yes, my amp is a VAC Renaissance 70/70 MkIII, from about a dozen or so years ago, but it has little if any similarity to the amps VAC currently produces (aside from having been designed in a robust manner by the same designer, Kevin Hayes). My amp uses four 300B directly heated triode power tubes per side, in push-pull parallel, providing 65 watts. The current VAC amps are all KT88-based, and are considerably more powerful. I don't need a great deal of power, as you'll recall, because of the efficiency and easy to drive impedance characteristics of my speakers.
The VAC 450S, btw, that was indicated by several people earlier in this thread as being particularly synergistic with the S5, cost $39K as of a couple of years ago. Its power supply and amplifier chassis together way 200+ pounds! And the other two amps in the 450 series are monoblocks weighing that much per side, and costing two and three times that amount, respectively!
All of those amps, btw, have output taps described as being suitable for 2 ohm loads. Mine even has a tap designated as being for 1 to 2 ohm loads.
Best,
-- Al |
I heard the Magico S5 driven effortless by the Absolare Passion PSET 845 mono blocks for several long listening sessions at CES 2014(including the preperation of the room prior to the opening day). Absolare used this same pairing atRMAF 2013 sucessfully, no apparent problems with that speaker's load. I've always enjoyed the VAC REN 300b push pull amplifiers(thought Kevin Cater actually designed this series of amps for Kevin Hayes).
Charles, |
Meant Kevin Carter not Cater, |
05-31-14: Charles1dad
I've always enjoyed the VAC REN 300b push pull amplifiers (thought Kevin Carter actually designed this series of amps for Kevin Hayes). Hi Charles, Thanks for raising that question, which rang some bells in my mind and left me uncertain. I then found this post by Kevin Hayes. See item 7 in particular, which describes Kevin Carter's role while he was at VAC, and confirms that the Renaissance amplifiers were designed by Kevin Hayes, with assistance from a technician he employed, and mechanical design by his father. Best, -- Al |
Charles1dad .... am I getting the right specs for the tube amp you mentioned:
"- Tubes: 2 x 845, 2 x 6SN7 (Every unit comes with custom-selected NOS 6sn7 tubes and PSAVANE HIFI Series 845 tubes)
- Output power: 52 watts"
I'm sure the Absolare amp sounds great, but at 52 watts, not exactly a giant killer. I put an inquiry in with Magico. I'll report back if and when I get more information.
Even used, the S5s is not inexpensive. I saw one advertised for $23K -- not cheap. Also noted that someone was advertising a used Q3 for $21K. No point in going too far down the road if my amp will melt trying to drive the load.
Fortunately, there's a dealer located in Delaware that carries Magico. I might try to get down there to give a listen. The dealer also carries Focal. I've also been thinking about the Electra 1038 Be II.
You'll notice that the common denominator between my speakers, the Magicos and the Focals is that all three brands use a berylium tweeter, which based on what I've read, is a pretty impressive transducer.
Al ... you got to admit that even though the S5s may be a tough load, it's not too often that one gets to see dynamic speakers with such a flat impedance curve. |
Thanks Al,
Over the years I've heard different versions of this story but I have no reason to doubt the Kevin Hayes version.Either way it was and remains an excellent amplifier.
Charles, |
Just noticed that in the thread I linked to there is a post dated 12-5-11 by Kevin Carter, under the screen-name "Delta27," confirming the relevant statements in the post by Kevin Hayes.
Sure is nice that we often have noted designers participating here in these forums.
Bruce, true enough, re your last statement.
Best,
-- Al |
Hello Bruce,
Yes I'm aware of the Absolare power rating and the Magico S5 challenging load impedance, but hearing trumps nunbers on paper. If youn ever have the time , read the numerous show reports of that combination. Certainly the S5 would presumably do well with higher power amplifiers . I used this example as a real life demonstration of how specifications don't reveal the entire picture (though they are a good starting point guide).
The "quality" of transformers and power supply aren't reflected when reading specifications or purely judging by measurements. Another example, my friend Jwm has the Rockport Atairs. He has the Absolare amplifiers and his long time VAC Phi 300.1 mono blocks (excellent PP amplifiers). He found the Absolare clearly better than his Phi 300.1 in his opinion (I agree). Of course it's subjective (and always will be ). Audio is really a mixture of science/engineering and art.
Charles, |
Thanks Charles. FWIW, got this message from Magico,
"Hi [Bruce],
The S5 can be driven with any modern amp we know of, including all Arc models.
I wish you all the best - happy listening, Jon Baker Magico"
Btw Charles, I happen to agree with your comment that an audition is the only way to go. Also agree that audio is a fusion of science, art and engineering.
Time will tell.
P.S. -- Just a guess really, but my amp has 4 ohm taps. ARC and Stereophile test results indicate that my amp should be able to deliver 150 wpc when driving a 4 ohm load off the 4 ohms taps with low distortion. That might augur well with the S5s because its rated impedance is 3 to 4 ohms, by and large, in the "power range" of the speakers, say less than 500 Hz. |
I have heard a number of the high end older Focals and it put me off the brand completely for many years. The new Focals however are a completely different story. You need to listen to a lot of modern speakers to see how they excel by comparison. I did that. Focal is not to everyone's taste, but I voted with my wallet on them. From what I have heard, Magico is v good but has not appealed to my taste as much so far. That said, you have bought a great brand which suits your taste and budget. If you feel you achieved enough improvement for your money that's all that counts, and I believe you feel you have, so enjoy them! |
This thread is a older than I realised so read my post in that context. |
Mike your comment is actually quite timely. I was musing the other day about the "decreasing sonic returns" issue with a well known audio reviewer with whom I trade e mails from time to time.
I drive Paradigm Signature 8s (v3) with ARC gear. The S8s share a number of similar build characteristics with the Revel Ultima 2 speaker line, e.g., Be tweeters, bass reflex system, high-order acoustic x-overs, and so forth. Not saying that one brand excels over the other because I've never listened to the Revels.
Funny thing is that my S8s sound pretty good to me. I also use a sub woofer to x-over at 35 Hz, which covers the bottom octave very nicely without bloating the bass.
Yet, because I've read so many glowing reviews and comments about the Magico S5s, I've got an itch to try them. Problem is arranging an audition is difficult. Also, the cost delta to get into the Magicos is quite large and I wonder out loud whether diminishing returns will kick in???
I've heard it said that if one gets used to listening to sonic swill long enough, one gets to like the sound of swill. But to be fair, I'm being extremely unfair to my S8s. They really do sound pretty good to me and I enjoy them very much. My ARC amp does a great job driving them.
I also suspect that I could achieve a more cost efficient sonic improvement by buying better grades of redbook CD and picking up more good quality vinyl. Waiting for a hi-rez CD reissue of a Dave Brubeck classic LP to be delivered. That should be great.
Maybe one day, I'll get a chance to arrange for a "fair" (apples to apples) audition of the Magicos. In the meantime, I'll slurp the swill. :)
Cheers |
I drive myself crazy comparing before I buy and it can take a long time researching, listening and trialling in my system. Trying out just one speaker, and buying it because you love the improvement for the price is an equally valid approach, but that approach will never work with my nature. Maybe I would be happier if I was able to be more impulsive with audio but I am bewildered that people can be happy that way. I think I just enjoy the buying process to much. |
I've had a pair of Totem Fire Monitors for 3+ years now, enjoy them a lot (with a Velodyne sub woofer), have auditioned some floor standing speakers, but cannot accommodate ones that are very deep (front to back measurement).
I was fairly impressed with the Wilson Audio Sasha W/P's until I played some music I enjoy, where the recording was "less than ideal". I could not stand the shrillness of the Wilson's playing such stuff as Bruce Springsteen's "Born to Run" album. I'm not going to give up listening to him, the Beatles, Stones, etc. because my speakers are "un-forgiving".
So the first question I have is whether the Magico's are "sharp" at the top end?
I am not a "tube" or "vinyl" fan, have a music server with hi-rez (mostly 44.1/16) files, a PS Audio DirectStream DAC and a McIntosh 200 wpc solid state amp.
I noticed that a dealer about an hour's drive from home is a Magico dealer.
Thoughts about whether I'd be a Magico fan? |
While I wouldn't describe them as sharp in the treble when driven by suitable quality electronics, Magico speakers are definitely extremely revealing and not what would be considered as forgiving in the highs. Of course you would be best advised to check them out for yourself with your amp before making the decision to purchase them. |
I think people's opinion of "driving" a speaker differs dramatically.
After hearing the S5s several times (including Vac 450s in a large room), the most successful pairing was on Constellation Centaur- which is 500w into 4ohms. |
I agree. Most Magico speakers need incredible amounts of power into 4 ohms. Much more than you would think. |
