Lyra Lambda Atlas/Etna

Dear @post2338  : Not at the same time but I heard in the same system the Lambda Etna and the Proteus and I don't know other gentlemans but overall the Proteus is better quality performer but when you are talking of these kind of quality sound levels is not something very easy a veredict.

Proteus is a today winner and a keeper cartridge and maybe you could find out second hand the special D version.

Anywa, a good re-tipper could change in specific the stylus tip on your sample with out touching any other cartridge part but maybe a check up on the cartridge suspension. Stay with and forgeret Lyra but it's your money and your choice.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

Not familiar with your current cartridge but my Lyra Atlas SL completely changed my system. But I believe the Etna is close for les $.

Dear @mglik  : Did you listen the Proteus in your system?

R.

Dear @post2338  : Other excellent alternative and better than Lyra is the Allaerts Formula One.

R.

Never used a Proteus.

Dear @mglik  : I ask because if you did not listen the Proteus then you can't know for sure the quality level the OP is talking.

Thank's for the answer.

R.

Dear @post2338  : Here you can take a look on the MC2 Formula 1:

http://www.jallaerts.be/

The Proteus has 0.28mV@5cm_sec output voltage with coil impedance of 1 ohm, and is therefore more comparable to the SL versions of the Atlas and Etna (0.25mV@5cm_sec output voltage, coil impedance of 1.5 ohm) than the standard (0.56 mV@5 cm/sec. output voltage, coil impedance of 4.2 ohm) versions of the Atlas and Etna.

At the following link you can read about an audiophile who has used the Proteus, Atlas and Etna SL in his system, and obtained different results from Raul.

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/3603

or if you would prefer to save time by reading only comments from the system owner:

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/3603?by_user=sunnyboy1956

Dear @post2338  : You have two other really good cartridge alternatives, one is the Colibri by VDH. I own/owned 4 Colobri samples always looking for the lowest output at around 0.22mv to no higher than 0.35mv. The higher output levels are not recomended including the new models that goes over 0.9mv and even over 1.0mv.

The other alternative is the Ortofon Verissimo.

R.

@post2338 , Both Lyra cartridges measure and perform better than the Proteus in regards to tracking and distortion levels. I myself am very close to buying an Atlas SL. From a sonic standpoint the Proteus is more warm and fuzzy, the Atlas sharper, more dynamic and neutral but, as Raul relates the sonic differences are minor and only guys like us are really going to notice. 

FWIW, when I got my Atlas SL Tri of Triplanar (my arm-Woodsong Garrard 301) told me I had one of, if not the finest cartridge available. Tri uses an Etna. 

@rauliruegas , The Ortofon Verisimo (one 's") should be killer. But, what do you not like about Lyra cartridges?

@post2338 , My Sonic Lab cartridges are also excellent. 

When I grow up I'm going to have a Lyra Atlas SL, a MSL Signature Platinum and an Ortofon Verismo. This list should be good for at least 72 hours. And, I'm going to get a Dohmann Helix2 and plant two Schroder LT tonearms on it. Don't we all love window shopping!!

Dear @mijostyn  : No, it's not that I don't like Lyra because I like it and as a fact I own/owned/listened rigth from the first model Evolve, Titan, Kldeos, Olympos, Helikon, Clavis da Capo, etc.

But, I prefer the Allaerts or the low output Colibri and the Verissimo and against Transfiguraion the signature of the models goes  more with my targets: I owned both Temper models, Phoenix S, Esprit, Orpheus, tc.

R.

FWIW, I have had the Formula One in my system for a few weeks. It's an excellent cartridge, it not only measures well, the attractive sonic signature makes it easy to recommend (other than that the low output may be a bit of a challenge for some phono stages).

Would I like to own a Formula One to run alongside an Atlas or Etna? Absolutely!
Would I care to replace an Atlas or Etna with a Formula One? No, that would be too limiting.

Undoubtedly however, the component preferences of some audiophiles makes it clear that they prefer more laid-back, less dynamic cartridges in their systems (grin).

BTW, the original version of the Etna was somewhat less dynamic than the Atlas, but the Lambda revision has noticeably reduced that difference.

@rauliruegas @jcarr , the thing that bothers me about the Allaerts cartridges is that they are all made by hand and hand adjusted. What happens when tolerances loosen. The Lyras are manufactured with tight tolerances to achieve reasonably uniform performance with perhaps a little touch up at the end. It seems to me that a cartridge made this way is more likely to maintain it's performance levels as it ages. Is this a reasonable conclusion? 

The other thing that bothers me about the Allaerts is the specs. They are so far in excess of any other cartridge that they are hard to believe. THD < 0.01%? First of all at what frequency? I have never seen a cartridge < 5% at 15 kHz. Most are up at 10%. Some are almost at 20%.  What can the average user with the average tools expect to get out of the cartridge? I trust Ortofon and Lyra because there cartridges always perform better than there specs. Like Porsche they publish the worst case scenario. It appears to me Allaerts publishes the absolute best case scenario or better.

Dear @mijostyn ​@jcarr  : Jonathan, you already know that for many years I really have a big respect for you, your products and your knowledge levels.

Now, what you said on Allaerts is true with the MC2 Finish Gold but not with the F!. The " problem " with the F1 first than all is its very low output but it's extremely sensitive to impedance and VTF set up. It's not a plug and play cartridge as could be Lyra or Ortofon.

Even that Allaerts does not recomended i tested for the first time my MC2 FG in nude fashion and against what the designer recomend I listened a different kind of sound for the better, same with my F!.

I have not the opportunity to listen the Lambda version of the Atlas but only the Etna.

I think that when we are talking of these very high quality whole performance levels in reality could be no true differences ( this is better than the other ) in between but first which cartridge mates the better with our each one MUSIC/sound targets and second the each one room/system levels.

As I said, I almost own all the Lyra models and the Ortofon too and still I give a confidence vote for the lower out put Colibri samples.

Now, no one cartridge is perfect.

mijo, you need to experience the Allaerts F1.

R.

@mijostyn , as long as the "loosened tolerances" are not due to damage, they should remain within the range of adjustment by the cartridge builder, and it therefore it should be possible to rectify the issues if the manufacturer accepts cartridge being returned for inspection / readjustment.

Some cartridge designs (certain Sonys come to mind) are not built in a manner that facilitates post-adjustment, but these are the exception rather than the rule.

Regarding Allearts' published specs, they may be beyond what one would expect to see in normal production; but presumably those specs were measured by using a test LP(s), and it is clear that there are substantial variations in test LPs from various labels.

The same cartridge will spec quite differently simply by changing the test LP. Occasionally cartridges are returned to us because the owner measured them with their test LPs and found issues, while we measured those returned cartridges with our test LPs and found nothing wanting.

As one publicly documented example, please read the following thread on Audio Asylum.
https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=vinyl&m=974176

Same cartridge, different test LPs, different specs.

Therefore, if a cartridge manufacturer finds a test LP that fits their designs like a glove, I suppose that it is not impossible that fabulous specs may be obtainable (smile).

PS. I also recall recent reviews of the same cartridge by a British publication and a German one, and the frequency response was different in those two reviews, but this could be caused by the location of the test tracks (due to the pinch effect).

@rauliruegas , I am aware of the VTF and impedance sensitivity of the F1. I was given 845 ohms as the impedance target, so that is what I used (Vishay metal-foil resistors). Overall I didn't find it unusually sensitive to setup, simply that it had quite specific requirements.

FWIW, the Atlas and Etna are even more sensitive to VTF changes than the F1.

I didn't try to play the F1 nude, as the coil impedance is high enough that taking the shielded case off may be a disadvantage in some urban environments.

Note that the F1 has an unusually wide body, which may cause compatibility issues with headshells that have drop-down sides (which are usually done as reinforcements to increase stiffness).

I like the F1, and had a lot of fun with it (smile).

@loving this thread…. While i have the Kleos - Lambda on my crayon letter to Santa….i am casting a wider ear and eye. I also greatly appreciate @jcarr weighing in on this thread. He has directly helped me achieve better performance of my Delos in Triplaner Mk7.

best to all, love this thread, civil challenge and ideas !

I am a robot with a line contact stylus in a curved groove…

I am listening to the Etna Lamda as we speak. Vastly hot-rodded 301 with Reed 3P 10.5 into a Steelhead to my ARC Ref 6 to an Ampsandsound Nautilus driving Spendor 7.2's via Auditorium 23. 

Chuck Prophet's "No Other Love" has just been re-released on vinyl. As a somewhat overboard fan I have seen him no less that thirty times from Pittsburgh to Chicago to Covington, KY and all points in between. As is true with most under-appreciated musicians he often tours solo with just his acoustic and his trademark two mics and usually in small venues. I think I know his voice like a member of my family's. I have never heard Chuck's voice sound so life-like. I won't go into the typical audio drivel as to why his voice sounds so much more life-like than with my other well regarded Ortofon and VdH cartridges. This is truly a special phono cartridge. 

Steve Dobbins advised me to set tracking at exactly 1.72 grams using a Riverstone VTF, not 1.73 or 1.71. This has proven spot-on. I have read that Mr. Carr recommends 1.69 but.... While I am name dropping I use Brian Walsh for set-up. He has been to my home 4 times now. He installed my Etna and has since fine tuned the set-up. 

Dear @fsonicsmith  :  "  sounds so much more life-like.."

Life-like needs or means, at least, dynamic power and natural tone balanced color. This is for me.

Now and due that you own a Colibri that I don't know its " vintage " production because no two Colibri sounds exactly the same and that's why I owned/own 4 samples.

Even that and that's why I still today give to it a confidence vote on quality level performance is that the black body Colibri ( not the ones with wood top plate. ) with a 0.24mv has the " explosiveness " that helps a lot for that life-like, this Colibri handled the transients as fastest as any other cartridge I experienced in any system I heard it.

About wood I don't like it wood on cartridges other than the Benz-Micro where I owned the Ruby, Ruby 2, Ruby 3, LP and LPS. Even I heard the Cardas one.

T.

@rauliruegas @jcarr , Thanx for the response. The build quality of the Colibri makes me nervous. For a precise piece of equipment wood is not a great choice as it changes dimension with humidity. It's claim to fame is loss of the front pole allowing a shorter cantilever. That means the cantilever has less leverage over the armature. So, there is a trade off that no other manufacturer is willing to make. I would love to hear one in my system but alas, no such operation exists. 

This might be a great opportunity for someone with a little spare cash. Buy all these cartridges and rent them out for a week at a time holding the sales price in escrow in case the renter damages the cartridge or fails to return it. Charge $250/week. 20 Rents will pay most cartridges off then it is all profit.     

@mijostyn, in my experience you don’t need to be apprehensive about the built quality of the Colibri. The design is fragile by nature and mounting and dismounting a Colibri needs a very steady hand and definitely is not my idea of having a good time. Nonetheless, my Colibri XPW Blackwood is over 10 years old, has received two retips and is still performing beautifully. No sign of the wood changing dimensions or anything. My sample is the discontinued version with platinum coils (the only one such beast in existence as far as I know), so at least as ‘collectible’ as e.g. the Lyra with platinum magnets. One could get nervous about the exposed coil wires, but after a while you tend to forget this. I do use it sparingly, as vdHul isn’t getting any younger and I would be reluctant to have it retipped again by somebody else. So if you’re interested in a Colibri, my advise to you is to get one while you still can.

@edgewear , does it come with a stylus guard ?

Nope, would be difficult with nothing to attach it to. It’s the main reason why (dis)mounting it is such a nerve wrecking affair. But worth it!

Mijostyn, do we imagine that any of the very best cartridges are manufactured by a machine? I think they’re all ultimately hand made. Also, you’re a fan of Schroeder tonearms, many if not most of which are made of wood. Tonearm changing shape would be much more consequential than cartridge changing shape. Metals change dimensions due to temperature changes too, so I would not be concerned about a wood body cartridge unless it sounds bad.

Since the load resistance is a function of the phono stage circuit as well as of the cartridge choice, I wonder how Allaerts can make such a definitive statement about how properly to load their cartridges (“845 ohms”).

Dear @mijostyn :  +1 ​​​​​​@edgewear who really is lucky with those platinum coils, as he said a collector item.

@lewm you only have to ask J.Allaerts here: 

http://www.jallaerts.be/

R.

@lewm , it depends on the manufacturer. With Ortofon only final assembly is done by hand. I would bet the same goes for Lyra. The bodies are more likely CNCed. 

My Schroder is Carbon. But, when he uses wood the wood is a very high density wood that is resin impregnated so it is very stable to humidity.

Metal is no where near as unstable to temperature as wood is to humidity. A 12" maple board will expand over 1/8th inch going from 20% to 50%. Imagine a crack in your table 1/8th inch wide. Metal might change a thou increasing the temp 100 degrees. (depending on the metal) Some woods are more stable than others like White Oak and Honduran Mahogany are very stable thus their use in boats. 

@rauliruegas , Have you heard a MSL Signature Platinum?

No.

@rauliruegas , over the weekend I stumbled into a 15% off deal on one. Would you go for it? I'm not going to buy an F1 in the near future. The Colibri is no longer made. It has morphed into the Condor. Have you heard one of these?

Woops, I stand corrected. The Colibri is still being made.

@mijostyn  : You can ask here for the not body wood low output Colibri. This is a trusty retailer with good prices:

R.

@mijostyn, the MSL Signature Platinum is very high in the food chain of modern high end MC cartridges. I haven’t heard it myself, but do own Accuphase AC-6, which is also a Matsudaira design. Based on the price level, this cartridge is most likely at the performance level of the Hyper and Ultra Eminent models (mixing the specs of the former with the boron cantilever of the latter). The system is very dynamic and neutral, almost to the point of being antiseptic. No flavouring, no ‘gorgeous tone colour’ or any other attributes, except of course when it’s in the recording. Of all the cartridges I use it’s probably the most ‘honest’. Assuming this is Matsudaira’s premier design objective, the Signature Platinum will most likely aim for that same goal at the highest level.

Thank You @edgewear ! I like Honest. And Thank You @rauliruegas! I bookmarked that page and will certainly contact them when I am ready to buy. 

Regarding Allaerts specifications. Those are public information with

''physical assumptions'' . That is to say that experiments under the

same conditions should deliver the same results. If those are not

''the same'' than the claim is not true. The scientific ''truth

values'' are two:  either true or false (tertium non datur).

The ''argument'' of different test records avoids ''the same conditions''.

Are ''different records'' not available ?

Set theoretic paradoxes are caused by ''to large universe'' ( aka

''universal statements'') say : ''set of all sets''. So by using universal

quantifier ''all'' one need to restrict domain of his reference, Say ''all

carts that I have heard''. 

@mijostyn, if you contact Johan about the availability of the Colibri you might also inquire about a sample of MSL Hyper Eminent he had on offer. This was a special version with ruby cantilever supplied by MSL (regular Hyper has aluminum cantilever). Might be just what you’re looking for, perhaps it’s still available.

Dear @jcarr  : " I didn't try to play the F1 nude, as the coil impedance is high enough that taking the shielded case off may be a disadvantage in some urban environments...""

You are rigth and that's why J.Allaerts is against that " nude " fashion.

I have not a problem with ( fortunatelly ) and I think that you need to test it because I listen a benefit. I think that he square cartridge body in the Allaerts cartridges develops standing waves or other kind of resonances against the quality sound. I'm not sure about this, you need to test it and is easy for you that are a true expert about.

R.