Using an outboard dac or vinyl, isn't the amp still A/D/A'ing the signal?
The 2170 did.
Lyngdorf TDAI-3400
Well, after reading all the rave reviews of the Lyngdorf TDAI-2170 both here and other places, I decided to order a TDAI-3400 for myself. I must admit I am still skeptical that such a diminutive piece of equipment can sound better than the Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP tube amp weighing more than 50 lbs, but I have been so intrigued by everything I have read I simply had to pull the trigger.
I just unboxed it today, hooked everything up, and am listening to it for a while before setting up Room Perfect.
I really want to hear the what the amp sounds like as-is for a bit to understand it better.
First impressions: Without Room Perfect it sounds like very nice solid state amps I've owned in the past, but to be honest, I don't find the sound to be particularly moving. I moved to tubes after years of solid state, and I swore I would never go back. That is where I'm coming from. I should also add that I always try to keep an open mind. While my initial take on it might sound like I don't like it, I hope folks just read this as me being as honest as possible about what I hear. I know the tendency when buying new gear is to want so badly to love it in order to justify the expense that it's easy to fool oneself into believing it's an improvement over what you had before, even when it's not. Of course I really want it to be as mind blowing as it has been built up in my mind to be, but if it's not I am OK with simply moving back to what I have liked so far.
I have only been playing records through it so far. Analog makes up 98% of my listening so that's where I am starting with it. I have a nice CD transport that I will connect to it in the next day or so just to hear the DAC in the unit. I will also experiment with playing files from USB sticks, computer audio from my MacBook Pro, and whatever else I decide. I am not prepared to purchase a music server just yet, but it's something I have thought about for a while.
My system: speakers are Harbeth Monitor 40.1's. Turntable is an SME 20/2 with SME IV.iv tonearm and Kiseki Purple Heart cartridge, fed to a Parasound JC-3+ phono preamp. Power conditioner is Audioqest Niagara 7000. CD transport is a Wadia 8.
I will report back as I have more time to experiment and let the amp break in.
I just unboxed it today, hooked everything up, and am listening to it for a while before setting up Room Perfect.
I really want to hear the what the amp sounds like as-is for a bit to understand it better.
First impressions: Without Room Perfect it sounds like very nice solid state amps I've owned in the past, but to be honest, I don't find the sound to be particularly moving. I moved to tubes after years of solid state, and I swore I would never go back. That is where I'm coming from. I should also add that I always try to keep an open mind. While my initial take on it might sound like I don't like it, I hope folks just read this as me being as honest as possible about what I hear. I know the tendency when buying new gear is to want so badly to love it in order to justify the expense that it's easy to fool oneself into believing it's an improvement over what you had before, even when it's not. Of course I really want it to be as mind blowing as it has been built up in my mind to be, but if it's not I am OK with simply moving back to what I have liked so far.
I have only been playing records through it so far. Analog makes up 98% of my listening so that's where I am starting with it. I have a nice CD transport that I will connect to it in the next day or so just to hear the DAC in the unit. I will also experiment with playing files from USB sticks, computer audio from my MacBook Pro, and whatever else I decide. I am not prepared to purchase a music server just yet, but it's something I have thought about for a while.
My system: speakers are Harbeth Monitor 40.1's. Turntable is an SME 20/2 with SME IV.iv tonearm and Kiseki Purple Heart cartridge, fed to a Parasound JC-3+ phono preamp. Power conditioner is Audioqest Niagara 7000. CD transport is a Wadia 8.
I will report back as I have more time to experiment and let the amp break in.
138 responses Add your response
Cool. Yeah, I'll check it out. Converting DSD to PCM is a no-go for me. Not that DSD is better quality than PCM, as some claim, but I have a number of remasters that are unique to SACD, so I have a lot of SACD rips. Converting to PCM is lossy, or rather, it doesn't quite work as you have to filter noise out in the conversation. Maybe I'll just stick to my Linn KDS/3. :) |
@evolvist If you mean network streaming for RoonReady, Roon will convert the dsd to pcm if need be, but that being said the DSD section is missing in RoonReady under device setup, so it may only support flac files. I don’t have any dsd files or I would test it. The DSD menu is available over USB to the Lyngdorf which does allow for selecting between DSD OVER PCM V1 (DOP) and converting DSD TO PCM, but this doesn’t prove it supports it, only that it might. The only other streaming functionality is Spotify so that’s irrelevant. If you meant connecting a hard drive of music to it, I simplt don’t know. Sorry I can’t be more helpful. I would call Neal at Sound Science or contact Lyngdorf directly to find out the limitations of the supported file formats for the network streaming function. |
You know, I used to have an older model Lyngdorf before it could accept RJ45 as a streamer. Now that it has streaming capabilities, I went to their site to see what formats it would take, hoping it would go up to at least DSD64. Well, there's no information of what formats you can play via Ethernet cable. Strange. In fact, on their site it use to have a description of the technology they use to get the D/A conversion, but now it's just a blurb. Does anyone know what files you can play using their streaming function? |
@essrand congrats on the tdai-3400. Sorry for the delay, I forgot to follow this thread. Yes Neal is a good guy. Since buying my unit, I've referred 2 people to him already that have made Lyngdorf purchases as well. I'm very happy with my TDAI-3400. It's a very smooth, neutral, and natural sounding presentation (maybe with even a slight touch of warmth). It's a tad less forward and polite sounding than my Benchmark DAC2 HGC/Nord NCORE Class D Monoblock combination, but I feel it's a more accurate portrayal of the music. It posesses excellent detail retrieval, isn't analytical at all, and is non-fatiging to listen to for hours at a time. Very musical indeed! The Room Perfect did indeed improve the sound quality by evening out the bass response aswell lifting some congestion and obfuscation in the midrange region Prior to getting Lyngdorf I typically listened to my Art Audio Diavolo SET tube amplifier primarily and it's also currently connected to the preamp output of the Lyngdorf and to a Luxman AS-55 amplifier switcher so I can enjoy tubes when I'm in the mood or directly to the Lyngdorf's internal Class D amplifier when I'm in a different mood or simply want a change of pace. A best of both worlds approach, if you will, however I may very well end using my tube amplifier less and less since the Lyngdorf is quite good on it's own merits, but it's nice to have options and it's a very versatile piece allowing me to create separate Room Perfect profiles for both amps, which is very handy. I really love using the RoonReady and Spotify Connect feature which works adeptly. It was all very easy to setup and configure through the well thought out web interface and I love the Lyngdorf Remote mobile app and even the ability to control the tdai-3400 volume from within Roon's or Spotify's mobile app as well. Very thoughtfully engineered and nicely executed. Well done! |
Greetings, I ordered my TDAI-3400 on Labor Day from Sound Science. Neal was super professional and expediant getting my order place immediately for me directly with Lyngdorf as soon as I got off the phone with him. I was told to expect the unit in 5-10 business days, but he was able to get it quick shipped out ups express, and I'll have it by Friday! I can't recommend Neal at Sound Science enough! Contrast that to my experience with HIFI Heaven, who's owner was curt, rude, unavailable, and unresponsive. So I cancelled my order with them. I'm very excited to hear this piece in my system and report back my impressions! |
It does... info is on page 11 of the manual. Basically, open a browser window (phone, pad, desktop) and enter tdai3400.local/ You will get access to all features including setup which lets you name inputs easily. |
Do you have a suggestion on an easier way to rename the inputs on this amp? I tried to use the included remote, and got one of them renamed, but couldn't save it. When I hit exit it would just erase it. It would be nice if the phone app had this function. Way easier to type the names on a phone than with the remote. |
Good food for you! You are right that you need to follow the instructions and shoot for at least a 97% room reading before stopping. The only way your room will be correctly understood and seen is my following those various mic placements in the instructions. Keep it fully on and now you are in business ✌️ |
I got the RP set up to work. I don't know what changed, but I just tried plugging it in again after a day of wondering if I'd have to wait another week to get it resolved, and it worked! I did the set up and am now in critical listening phase. I won't go too in depth in my assessment until I have had more time to listen, but I will say that so far it sounds really good. I might redo the RP setup as I'm not sure I did it as well as I should have. I failed to read the instructions fully, especially the part about pointing the mic in random directions. When I set it up I pointed the mic between the speakers, regardless of the position I set the mic in. I think the sound might get better if I redo it, and other than the time it takes I really don't have much to lose. |
The 3400 does not use an XLR into the back of the amp like on the 2170. They use an adaptor to a mini RCA plug that goes into the front of the amp. I sent a message to Hi-Fi Heaven just now. Hopefully it will get resolved quickly. I honestly don't know if the mic is bad. Is there any way to test it? I did try raising the volume of the test tones but still got the same error. Thanks |
I have a problem. I got the mic set up on the stand and proceeded to set up Room Perfect, but every time I started the process I got a mic signal error. I checked the cables several times and everything looks good. I don't believe I'm doing anything wrong but if anyone has experienced this please let me know what you did to remedy it. I might have a faulty microphone. As an aside, the mic stand is not as good as could be. First, there are not any assembly instructions included with it. After a while I figured out how it goes together, but it seems ridiculous that no documentation is inside the box. Also, the threaded pieces do not fit precisely, so they do not properly tighten to each other. Seems like something was not done correctly in either the design or the manufacture of these parts. |
Thanks for all the comments, folks. I will be setting up Room Perfect soon. I just didn't have time to set it up yesterday when I unboxed it, so I decided to give it some listening time without RP so I can understand by comparison the difference it makes once it has been implemented. In my first post I meant to convey the message that this amp sounds very good right out of the box, even without RP turned on. But it has a very solid state sound to it, and in my past I have always preferred tubes to SS. I believe that with RP properly set up I will like this amp more than anything else I have owned, otherwise I would not have bought it. I can't wait to get the DAC in action. This will happen soon. Most likely I will plug in my Wadia transport using a coaxial cable to start. I have a balanced digital cable but it's super short and won't reach. I will probably buy a longer one at some point. Yes, I got the version of the amp with the high end analog inputs. This was very important to me as I mainly listen to vinyl. I skipped the HDMI inputs as I had no use for them. I will leave the amp on 24/7 per suggestion, at least for a while until it is broken in. Thanks for this suggestion. I will check back in a day or two. I've been very busy sending my son off to college this week so it might take a bit longer for me to respond. Cheers |
"The unit sounds best when not using an external dac, most of the time, because there is no need for the added cables, complexity and longer signal paths." >>>>I totally concur. In my particular case I’ve been able to eliminate the external DAC, AC power and AC Ground, power cords, interconnects, transformers, big honking capacitors, speaker cables, fuses. All of which obviously introduce noise and distortion to the sound. Also eliminated in one swell foop with small portable battery powered headphone system are requirements for the usual room acoustics devices, only the ones that operate outside the conventional modes are needed. You know.... These rather severe measures allow me to get down to the real nitty gritty. |
When I used my Lyngdorf with no room correction it sounded fine and good in a conventional sort of way. A good music maker, but when I ran RP I was smiling big. Next to my former TRL Dude preamp I have stuck with the Lyngdorf for a relatively long time for me 🙂. It’s still staying put, but I may extract a tad more out of mine with additional mods. |
The unit sounds best when not using an external dac, most of the time, because there is no need for the added cables, complexity and longer signal paths. The 3400 really shines when used to take advantage of its design, short signal paths and inherent synergy. Now that is the case with most dacs, however I am sure some big dollar ones with great cabling, conditioning etc.. would sound fantastic also. With diligence and patience one can arrive at great sound with the 3400 using several different paths. |
To each his own... I haven't used the USB input; as I understand it, USB is not the best output on the Bryston BDP-2. But I tried both AES/EBU and coax into the 3400. (I also tried BDP -> Ygg -> 3400 using RCA into the standard quality analog section), and --for me-- BDP -> Ygg -> 3400 HQ analog module (XLR) sounds best. The Lyngdorf is still pulling duty as room correction, pre, and amp. Don't think it's too much of a stretch to believe that a well-regarded stand-alone DAC can be equal to or better than the one in the 3400. |
You have not heard it yet. Break in is a must and that will take some 200-300 hours. At least 100 hours before she blooms and opens up. - run Room Perfect....big improvement and what is so special about that piece. - don’t turn the unit off. Leave it on 24/7. No stand by, but fully on. You can allow this in your display options. She really sounds most musical after being on 12 hours. No worries as it draws less watts than a light bulb and stays cool. - make sure you do not use another dac. Use the 3400 only for best sound. - USB input sounds the best - she likes a decent cord and conditioner Report back after this. Right now you really have not heard the unit. I know these units well and break in and keeping it on are vitally important for body, bloom and musicality. Room Perfect takes it to another level. Enjoy as your patience will be rewarded. Feel free to contact me should you have any RP questions. I had the 40.1s with the Lyngdorf and after burn in, staying on, and Room Perfect they were a great match. Room Perfect is the game changer in this piece and what separated it from the gaggle of SS and tube separates I owned in the past. Remember the 3400 is nearly a complete system change and getting the most out of it will take time and effort. To just plop a new “system” in place ahead of the speakers changes a great deal and you will no doubt have to look at other things now. She does like a good power cord and conditioning. I wish I could view your virtual system for more info on your source and cabling. |
Couldn't disagree with @stereo5 more. You can't judge an audio component until it breaks in (and you break into it), so if you simply judge it on first listen you're not even close to evaluating it fairly or accurately. I think you're very smart to listen without room correction first. After 100-200 hours of breakin you'll have a very good baseline for the performance and character of the amp on its own. My guess is that if after that breakin point the Lyngdorf is even in the general ballpark of your enjoyment level with the Prima Luna, the room correction (properly implemented of course) will smack the ball out of the ballpark. Room correction, in all but the most meticulously treated rooms, can be HUGE and can overall greatly outweigh the differences between two electronic components IME, but of course this is all room and equipment dependent. In any event, I'll be very interested in what you find as someone who is also very interested in potentially becoming a future Lyngdorf customer. |
Stereo5, If snackeyp doesn't ultimately prefer the Lyngdorf to his Prima Luna he will occupy a rare position. Based on owner feedback the Lyngdorf exceeds nearly all previously owned components. Room perfect seems to be a very significant factor for overall performance. So it will be interesting to read his listening impressions once he utilizes this important feature. I don't doubt that the Prima Luna and Harbeth 40.2 sounds beautiful. Charles |
I owned a Primaluna Dialogue Premium and preferred the 2170 over it. It all comes to taste and system synergy. I still like tubes, but if I ever went back I would get a SET amp not a PP Tube Amp. Just my opinion and good luck. FWIW 3400 does not use a DAC if connected digitally only with the Analog inputs. |
Did you get the optional HQ analog module? If not, an analog source may not be the best test. Definitely try the digital input, and run Room Perfect. Room Perfect noticeably improved bass for me. I have a stand-alone file server (Bryston) so haven't tried the playback interface on the 3400. I recently got the analog module and now have my Yggdrasil DAC feeding into it, using XLR. I will try other analog sources at some point. But to my ears, using the Ygg offers an improvement over the built-in DAC, even if it seems a bit counter-intuitive. |
I would think that that your Prima Luna HP amp would be VERY hard to beat. Is the new amp Class D? If it is, that could be your problem. I am like you, prefer tubes although In my case use an all tube pre with a solid state amp. From my experience, if I am not smitten with a new piece of gear upon first listen, nothing will make me like it and back it goes. My friend has the Prima Luna HP Integrated with the KT150 tubes with Harbeth 40.2 speakers and the sound is rich and to die for. It is a very well balanced combination. Best of luck with the new amp. |