Just got mine last week. After 24 hours of play all I can say is that this is not your father's class D amplifier. There is not one thing about its sound that reminds me of the class D gremlins that I do not like. The low end filled in and now has deep impact, the midrange is the love child of a beautiful tube and clean hybrid amp - just gorgeous. Highs are very clean and extended. Spatial cues are top notch. My system has had some damn good tube and solid state amps in it before and it has never sounded this good. I am blown away with the quality of sound coming from class D amplification at this price point.
"However, there is a person who might chime in here who has a modded LSA and before that had my modded IceEdge amp which has no roll off using lower impedances." 😀 Chime
The thread were I did the review was noted earlier (and again it is here
However, there is a person who might chime in here who has a modded LSA and before that had my modded IceEdge amp which has no roll off using lower impedances). For the guys who insist that measurement is everything, the first thing you should know that my hearing has been tested by an audiologist and I had an appointment with my ENT a couple of months back and I asked if he wanted me to repeat the hearing test I had the year before and he said no my hearing was wonderful.
My friend who was over also has excellent hearing. Besides the listed playlist in the review, we listened to tons of things, some of which be indicative of deficiencies in upper frequencies (and the tonality was just better and more realistic, including the below as well as a couple that what whathifi lists as the 10 best tracks to test treble and notes "Coarse or rough treble doesn't always reveal itself straight away, and it might be a while before you realise what's missing when that upper register is overly rolled off, so it's worth taking some time to focus on precisely what's happening up there" and the 3.7 measurements are listed in a Stereophile review) Is the LSA the best sounding amp in the world - of course not - but the question should be what does the competition sell and how does it compare and I've owned a couple of Class A /A/B amps around the $9k range which were not as good to me or others who heard the actual system and of course those observations are limited to those specific amps - and that is what the thread is supposed to be about - how the amp sounds in the real world with real speakers in a real system). My advice to anyone is buy what you like and listen to it and don't worry about anything else.
because those components have that signature compared to straight wire. And this signature cannot be measured. Same with all audio wires. Some sound dull, some sound neutral and some sound bright (as well as other characteristics......mostly which CANNOT be measured).
Why? What is the physical mechanism that causes a passive length of wire to have a "sound signature"? If there is a physical mechanism, why can’t it be measured?
How do you quantify "neutral", "bright", "dull"? Compared to what? Hint: you can’t. These are all subjective descriptions with meaning only to you. Others may have a different interpretation, thus, your claim is true for a population of 1- you.
We can measure the objective performance and studies have shown correlation with those measurements with subjective opinions of "quality".
More "you can’t measure it, but trust me"....Praise the lord...
Do I like the fact that the LSA shows more roll off at lower impedance loads?....no, I don’t.
I wish it were that simple.....that a frequency response measurement means only one thing. However......since everything makes a difference, it is not that simple. Years ago I had a speaker I had designed that had a resistor to pad the tweeter. I was using one of those junk sand resistors. When I tried to use metal film resistors there it sounded too bright and harsh. As I tweaked my system to lower its distortion I could then put the metal film resistor in and enjoy its better transparency without the brightness or harshness (that were actually coming from other parts of my system before and now were eliminated).
If I were to install Silver WBT binding posts, Rhodium plated Furutech AC socket and silver plated OFC wire in Teflon on an LSA amp you would say it is a bright sounding amp.....no matter what the load of the speaker.......because those components have that signature compared to straight wire. And this signature cannot be measured. Same with all audio wires. Some sound dull, some sound neutral and some sound bright (as well as other characteristics......mostly which CANNOT be measured). This is what I am constantly stating.....this game is really infinitely complicated. And to use just measurements is really ignorant.
Do I like the fact that the LSA shows more roll off at lower impedance loads?....no, I don’t.....nor would I design an amp that way for mass production. However, there is a person who might chime in here who has a modded LSA and before that had my modded IceEdge amp which has no roll off using lower impedances. He is using Thiel 3.7 speakers that have very low impedance and he greatly prefers the sound of the LSA amp. Do his speakers sound more rolled off with the LSA so that is why he likes it? This is what a measurement only person would say. Maybe he will chime in with his hearing impressions.
This game is an art. You must match your gear to get the sound you like. It is not an exact science like drag racing where there are just five factors: horsepower, weight, drag, traction and gearing. You can design a dragster on a computer and then put it together and it will perform down the quarter mile exactly as predicted. Audio is infinitely more crazy. Every single thing changes the sound and most things CANNOT me measured that change the sound. You must listen to really know what is real in audio.
@jaymark, thank you for indulging me with what speaker you are using.
I don't know the Spatials other than from the web, so I can't comment too much,
I know the Revels, and was able to find an impedance curve for them. Their impedance drops below 4 ohms for most of their higher frequency performance. With the LSA, one would expect a droop/shelving of the high frequencies starting about 5KHZ, and continuing to about 1.5-2db down (roughly) at 20KHz.
If you still have pretty good high frequency hearing, and your room is "lively" i.e. not a lot of absorption/acoustic treatments, that could make the amplifier both sound less harsh to you, and by taking the emphasis off the high, give better weight to the bass. As well, though our high frequency hearing is not as good, it can present a masking function for lower frequencies, so it could, just by making this "less busy" at least to you, give a subjective impression of better midrange.
Compared to a traditional tube amplifier, based on the measurements I saw, the LSA will have far far less intermodulation distortion, and this could also make the midrange come alive for you in comparison.
I am curious what your impression are with the Spatial Audio X5s. There is no impedance data, but it is listed as 8 ohms, so I would expect it to roll off less in the highs compared to the Revel with this amp.
From a purely "state of the art" perspective, the LSA is not near the top, though I think some of the specifications, like IMD, are pretty good. I can see though, in your particular case, and compared to other products you used, why this amplifier could be the best you have experienced. I am happy that you came across it.
@cindymentI have used to different speakers on the Voyager GAN amplifier. InitialInitiaused heavily modded Revel F208s. About a week ago, i hooked in Spatial Audio X5s - they now have about 125 hours on them.
jerry, it’s clear you don’t understand the difference between subjective opinion and objective fact, among many other things. It’s not possible to have an intelligent conversation with you, as you keep proving over and over with your incomprehensible blabbering. A lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing I am afraid. Get an education and some interpersonal relations counseling and come back when you have something civil and intelligent to add.
I've had tripath, spectron, and now hypex. In the past I have owned both tube and class a solid state amps. Once I found hypex, I have never looked elsewhere.
It all comes down to personal preference. Some like the tube sound, others don't. There is no right or wrong. I always get a kick out of the audio nazis who put other's choices down with their snobby attitude and need to justify their own preferences - as if their version of reality is the only valid interpretation.
Not to add any fuel to this fire, I would like to say that I have heard both the NAD & Amplifier-Dudes amps and they are not even on the same planet. Atmasphere is 100% correct about the input buffer/gain stage which is where most companies try to save money but AD has put most of his, and this is why there are some products that can benefit from modifications, and some that don't need them at all. Personally, I want to have a completely clean and neutral amplifier (to my ears) with a high SINAD to start the system, and build any flavour or character down stream, I believe that unless you start off that way you will always end up chasing your tail sonically. I also think that Bruno has done a lot to help the average audiophile with the cost/reward ratio that these modules can provide and thus allowing more funds to go towards speakers/drivers, in particular because with amps being so inexpensive, relatively speaking?? one can now think about active for a reasonable cost which intern allows for better drivers with lower distortion which ultimately ends up creating a more complete illusion with blacker blacks etc. This is the route that i'm choosing, and for me thus far it has been very satisfying. Everyone else's journey will differ, good luck with it as it's your system and your ears, i've not yet heard the LSA but will report back if I do as I've heard most of the class D options available, my amp journey, at least has ended.
I get it, you like the amp, you believe in audio magic. Great! Go enjoy yourself
No actually I was considering it and decided to play with other Pufi/GaN equipped amps before coughing up money on an unknown commodity to me (LSA).
Was enjoying the feedback fro ACTUAL OWNERS and then you came out of hibernation after a 5 year nap.
Not sure what your business is but it must be slow with all the time you are spending on this one thread. Or Wally and Ric are impacting your bottom line. Either way I could care less.
I will no longer engage you all of this is so old now. The only person who cares about your opinion is well you.
p.s. to those who called me an "armchair/wikipedia engineer", this is me having the last laugh.
Thank you for the intelligent, rationale, and reality based post. It’s refreshing to read something that actually says something meaningful rather than the "trust me" explanations all too common here. It’s also nice to see something that isn’t full of insults, posturing, and mental instability, written above a 4th grade level. Bravo!
Gee, so it seems you can't simply remove and replace important elements of the design without a thorough understanding of the component's role as a whole. Who would have thought?
I think I have made my opinion clear here- it's a poorly designed, poorly performing, and old tech. Poorly designed because it's using bridged stereo modules and prefilter feedback, poorly performing because it's frequency response is dependent on load, and old tech because class d amp design has advanced in the last 20 years to post filter feedback enabling the amp to function independent of load.
I am not addressing the subjective performance because that, due to the load dependence, depends on what load any individual user may be using as well as any individuals personal preferences, which can neither be quantified nor disputed.
the Bel Canto e.One ref501S I now own that is equipped with Bruno's Hypex's NC500 OEM module.
@jerryg123Just as a FWIW; that suggests that if BelCanto (fun trivia dept.: one of their staff used to work for me...) were to use the Purifi module it would sound very similar to the amp they make now.
People think air core inductors are the messiah, but they can have serious consequences if not used properly. No doubt a large part of the reason for the "style" of inductor use by professional companies like Purifi/Hypex is the closed magnetic path resulting in little stray magnetic field. Drum core inductors are bad enough, and with an air core, that steel mounting screw, those resistor and capacitor leads, etc. are all now part of your circuit, let alone if a customer decides to use a steel case instead of an aluminum one, I would say very common due to the huge cost differential.
For others, the reason for not using toroids is likely for many practical reasons. To get a specific inductance and saturation point in an inductor of a given size, that requires a specific number of turns and an air gap of a specific size. That is easy with many standard cores, one leg is just ground down typically fractions of a mm. That is very difficult with a toroid, and a side effect is the gap is now exposed (EMI, etc.) For that reason and a host of others including inflexible size/mounting, gapped toroids are rarely used. Most common toroids you see in power supplies / amps (not line/audio frequency transformers) are usually a ferrous powder or some similar magnetic material molded with a binder. The "gap" is distributed throughout the toroid. The problem with these materials is they tend to be pretty lossy at the upper end of their frequency ranges and are not overly linear w.r.t inductance versus current. Some toroids are ferrite, but you are limited purely in turns ratios w.r.t. usage.
p.s. to those who called me an "armchair/wikipedia engineer", this is me having the last laugh.
Oh, but jerry, it is my business as I don’t enjoy the constant shilling on what is suppose to be, as I understand it, a hobby site. I don’t come here to be spammed with incessant ads and audio quackery. I haven’t attacked Ric for his opinions, I have questioned the veracity of his outlandish and unsubstantiated claims. I have criticized his business model of constantly promoting his money making "improvements" on a hobby board.
And I don’t come here to be subjected to harassment and childish insults from petulant crybabies ignorant of the technical issues who can’t handle anything but never ending praise for their (poor) audio choices.
I get it, you like the amp, you believe in audio magic. Great! Go enjoy yourself.
I am not interested in saving anyone, least of all you.
Thank you @atmaspherevery insightful and this bears out with the Bel Canto e.One ref501S I now own that is equipped with Bruno's Hypex's NC500 OEM module.Much better design and execution than the NAD.
I am a tube guy that has been playing in the Class D world the last 2 years.
@jerryg123To my understanding the Purifi modules are not offered with an input buffer/gain stage. To the best of my knowledge, the buyer is expected to install their own. This is one of the reasons you see such variable comments on Bruno's modules- some buyers know how to design a proper input circuit and apparently many do not. I don't know anything about the NAD in particular, never heard it. But I do know that the input circuit has to be really neutral and there are some pretty bad examples out there wired into Bruno's modules. So if I were you I would not take your experience with the NAD as particularly meaningful.
The way I understand the NAD use of Purifi is they licensed the use of the technology, not sure they actually use Purifi boards or make their own. Perhaps if there's a photo of the inside of a NAD33 we would know.
If you use a toroid coil instead of an incased coil it would sound different.
Just to be clear, both are toroids. The reason it might sound different might be because the inductor can play an enormous role in how the output section switches and if there are problems with it, can cause spurious noise that can be many multiples of the switching frequency. Its not the sort of thing that you play with and not also subject the amp to extensive testing afterwards to make sure it doesn't block out channel 4 on the TV or the like... I might add that the output filter caps have to be chosen for low inductance characteristics and this relates very specifically to the way the leads are terminated in the device. If you replace those parts with something different that has greater inductance, RF noise is the likely result. The module has to meet EU Directives which are pretty strict in this regard- and those directives serve as a model for the UK and China and to a lessor extent, the US and Canada. If you don't meet them the consequences can be dire for a smaller company!
So here is my question. If these Purfi equipped amplifiers are so great why is it I returned my NAD M33 after 45 days because it sounded awful?
@jerryg123To my understanding the Purifi modules are not offered with an input buffer/gain stage. To the best of my knowledge, the buyer is expected to install their own. This is one of the reasons you see such variable comments on Bruno's modules- some buyers know how to design a proper input circuit and apparently many do not. I don't know anything about the NAD in particular, never heard it. But I do know that the input circuit has to be really neutral and there are some pretty bad examples out there wired into Bruno's modules. So if I were you I would not take your experience with the NAD as particularly meaningful.
Sorry jerry, I didn't bring up ASR. But if I did, so what? Their review of the LSR amp is germane to this discussion. Just because you can't read and understand their technical critique of the shortcomings of this amp doesn't mean it isn't relevant. Nor does it matter if you agree or disagree with them.
Mike isn't my buddy. I don't find childish insults and mental instability attractive from anyone.
And I don't find unsubstantiated claims from audio shaman profiting off of the insecurities of others desirable either.
If you have an issue with these opinions, that's just too bad. Personally, I could say I don't think much of yours either, but that would be overstating things.
"I had no clue when starting this thread that it would turn into an ongoing gallery of insults and ridicule. This stuff really taints this beautiful hobby that we are passionate about." 👍
That's exactly why, as noted in this thread, why I posted my impressions elsewhere. Not interested in the back and forth dealing with those who don't have experience with the product and just follow someone who at best is in the novice category (and that's probably a stretch) when it comes to audio knowledge and experience. Many other places are monitored and moderated in a stricter fashion (which has good and bad points) and this kind of stuff gets shut down quickly (and I linked an example earlier in the thread). All I suggested is just post impressions and ignore the irrelevant. That's the best that one can do.
I had no clue when starting this thread that it would turn into an ongoing gallery of insults and ridicule. This stuff really taints this beautiful hobby that we are passionate about.
Blessings to Mike, blessings to Kuribo......blessings to everyone....no matter what your opinion is.......remember opinions are like A holes.......everyone......well, you know the rest. What we need to remember is that everyone has a soul. Everyone is beautiful. Please try and see the beauty in each person. In essence.....we are all the same....we all want to love and be loved and to be happy. I wish you all the highest high of the them all.......the LOVE SUPREME.
But why do they keep him around? simply because he causes controversy. And that results in conversation. Which results in people coming to the forum to spend money.
Only rationale explanation. He's constantly shilling his business which most boards don't allow but apparently it's just fine here.
You said what I do is nonsense (has no value)......so I was just posting someones opinion that shows maybe you don’t know the results of what I do and that there just might be fantastic value in what I do. But, of course, you will never see it that way. By the way, I am swamped with work.......that is how valuable people think I am. You are also worthy. Worthy of loving people rather than making them wrong.
By the way, most here do not care about your opinion.....it does not stop you from posting. Who is more boring? Maybe we should have a vote. I vote for love and joy. Now that.....is never boring.
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