Just got mine last week. After 24 hours of play all I can say is that this is not your father's class D amplifier. There is not one thing about its sound that reminds me of the class D gremlins that I do not like. The low end filled in and now has deep impact, the midrange is the love child of a beautiful tube and clean hybrid amp - just gorgeous. Highs are very clean and extended. Spatial cues are top notch. My system has had some damn good tube and solid state amps in it before and it has never sounded this good. I am blown away with the quality of sound coming from class D amplification at this price point.
Come over to my house and bring your best open hearted love, open mind and bliss and I will show you how to do listening tests to various subtle things that improve the sound of equipment. Don’t need no alcohol to get high/low.......we are already infinite joy and bliss......live it now.....it is way more fun than being right.....way more fun....way more fun....way more fun....way more fun.....
Ok I’ll drink the whiskey, and you can just listen. Then let me know if my analyzer was able to help me make the sound better or not. In combination with listening tests.
When you have a fully equipped tool chest, your work doesn’t suffer.
You'll be waiting a long time. I believe everyone has their own personal taste so rather than tell people what good sound should be I prefer to let people find their own way.
You could have measured distortion of 3 billion db down and still the amp would only sound as good as the execution and parts (the tons of things that cannot be measured yet make a serious difference in sound).
There is no such thing as "distortion below audibility". What we hear is WAY way more than what we can measure.
This may not be the most out there thing I have heard in 30+ years in audio, but it ranks right up there, and certainly the top of the last year. It is probably just better to admit you are not an expert on what measurements can be made and what they can tell us. I will let Bruno know next time I see him that you want to teach him how to design amp properly. I am sure he will welcome the input.
The Johnson noise, as well as nasty distortion drowns out everything at -92dB THD+N. You need a bank of premium metal foil resistors. I use a bank of these:
The Johnson noise, as well as nasty distortion drowns out everything at -92dB THD+N. You need a bank of premium metal foil resistors. I use a bank of these:
But most passive crossover use garbage like these:
The "noise" from these resistors wouldn't even begin to register let alone reduce your THD+N to -92db at any reasonable amp power. You didn't state what power level you were using, so claims of distortion impact are suspect.
No need for exotic and very expensive Mundorf resistors though. There are two parameters, one is thermal modulation, and that is a factor mainly of size, and the other one is voltage dependent resistance, and that just requires the right resistor material, it does not need to be at all exotic.
It doesn’t take much at all. Can’t even do a 5w 1khz THD+N measurement.
People always claim that the driver distortion is so high that the quality of electronics don't matter. I'm sure I'm not the only one on here who has heard a difference between audio components.
I’ve tried many. I’m not into crappy amps, so those dummy loads are useless for me. I have a hot rodded Dscope. Can do up to -116dB THD+N.
Judging by this statement, and the name, I will make the wild guess that you are also "amplifierdude", so did you already get banned with that name here? How many times did you get kicked off of other websites?
I don't believe YOU made that test with the resistor. Those numbers were taken from ASR I suspect, but not with Mills resistors. From what I can tell of your other posts, you don't know how to use your Dscope.
When you get into high resolution measurements, even the cables can mess things up if you're not balanced. I tested a dongle DAC recently with a single ended headphone cable hooked up to it. Couldn't get a balance channel to channel
Judging by this statement, and the name, I will make the wild guess that you are also "amplifierdude", so did you already get banned with that name here? How many times did you get kicked off of other websites?
I don't believe YOU made that test with the resistor. Those numbers were taken from ASR I suspect, but not with Mills resistors. From what I can tell of your other posts, you don't know how to use your Dscope
Show me some results with your analyzer then. Sounds like you're one of those armchair engineers who learnt everything he knows over on ASR.
Here’s how a proper digital input integrated amp measures. 1khz 24/192 PCM test tone played back in Roon, then over fibre Ethernet, streamer, DAC, pre, and amps. And into a proper 4 ohm dummy load. And at 1w not 5 like your god Amir uses.
The one you indicated as balanced has worse channel matching. The one you indicated as unbalanced, had unrealistic channel matching. 0.005% gain difference. That is highly unlikely on anything "real" two channel.
The other measurement was matched to 0.015db between channels.
I think you need to spend more time with your tools before posting stuff and learn to interpret what your post means.
The one you indicated as balanced has worse channel matching. The one you indicated as unbalanced, had unrealistic channel matching. 0.005% gain difference. That is highly unlikely on anything "real" two channel.
They’re both single ended cables. Think I don’t know what measured worse?
The one you indicated as balanced has worse channel matching. The one you indicated as unbalanced, had unrealistic channel matching. 0.005% gain difference. That is highly unlikely on anything "real" two channel.
They’re both single ended cables. Think I don’t know what measured worse?
I think you don't understand what the measurements mean and I expect you are using the equipment improperly. Channel matching to 0.005% as your first picture shows is unnatural and highly unlikely. It is difficult to get that from lab grade reference DC sources, let alone a consumer audio device. The second unit at 0.015db difference is still exceptionally good channel matching. The amplitude accuracy of your equipment is 0.7% (0.06db). The changes you are showing are likely well within the short term thermal drift of the equipment, simply from output/input impedance. Balanced is not going to fix the issue. It is even harder to match/maintain perfect gain between channels with balanced taking into account a proper AES balanced connection has match source/load impedance and the absolute output will be a function of those resistors and never accurate to 0.005%, and I would be quite happy if within 0.015db, but even that is highly unlikely.
I was demonstrating how an audio analyzer can measure inconsistencies between cables. When you have hands on experience rather than just reading what the clowns on ASR say you can learn a few things. I measure stuff all the time with balanced connections and the consistency is spot on.
I was demonstrating how an audio analyzer can measure inconsistencies between cables. When you have hands on experience rather than just reading what the clowns on ASR say you can learn a few things. I measure stuff all the time with balanced connections and the consistency is spot on.
Pretty obvious from my replies AmplifierDude that I have more than enough experience when I can look at your numbers and know whether they are "real" or there is a flaw in them.
I’m kinda new with my analyzer. How do I measure to figure out the THD in the audible band with a 15khz signal? I’m using the dScope software.
These were your exact words from Saturday, November 27, 2021. So you have become a measurement expert in the last 3 days? I stick to my previous comment. I do not think you know how to use your tools properly. Asking how to measure the audio band THD of a 15KHz reinforces that you do not understand the measurements (hint, there are 0 harmonics of 15Khz in the audio band, hence you cannot measure it). The last post even brings up your name. You may want to try to understand a multi-tone IMD test it will prevent saying things you may regret later. Will you grace us with your list of "measurements that matter" ?
In respect of other people here, I will not respond to this more, as the thread is already off track.
Looks like you’re making things up. Unlike you I actually posted some measurement results. Rather than just blindly trusting in your god Amir’s word.
Looks like to me whoever said that over on ASR was just testing to see if anyone knew what they were talking about. Because over on ASR, they only listen to music at 1khz. The answer to that question is simple. Do a 2 tone test with 1 tone @ 1khz, and the other at 15khz. Then run the THD+N test. Then follow by the standard test of 1khz on its own. Then compare the THD+N results between the 2 tests. If the 2 tone has higher THD+N, it was obviously due to the influence of the 15khz tone. But thats not in the text book. So it's not possible.
Over on ASR they don’t care about wide band distortion and noise. I was just reading over there about a new Topping amp. The sycophant’s were all jumping for joy because of the 1khz 5w THD+N. Because that’s what god Amir told them is the most important. So they completely ignored that the amp actually sucks using measurements that matter.
The answer to that question is simple. Do a 2 tone test with 1 tone @ 1khz, and the other at 15khz. Then run the THD+N test. Then follow by the standard test of 1khz on its own. Then compare the THD+N results between the 2 tests. If the 2 tone has higher THD+N, it was obviously due to the influence of the 15khz tone. But thats not in the text book. So it's not possible.
You know very well we are talking about electronics here......of course, certain measurements of speakers are very important.
That isn't what your statement said. You said:
What is so funny is that these "science is truth" people have no truth. There are no double blind linstening tests that confirm one measurement is better than another.
Saying that this applies only to amps and preamps after saying something like that is changing the argument- the first statement remains false.
That old junker maxes out at -80dB THD+N. Useless for modern audio gear engineering. Especially for class D design work. No wonder you didn’t know Johnson noise existed.
To be clear, the conclusion isn't supported by the opening statement. You don't know anything about me; the conclusion is not only unsupported but also false. And I made my statement in the context of crossover components in a loudspeaker. I would be really interested if you could show that they make even a 10th of a dB difference to the noise floor. In practice that seems difficult at best since you'd need an anechoic chamber to prove it. Regarding the analyzer, its proven itself very useful during the class D project as have differential probes, smart tweezers and a decent thermal camera plus a fair amount of simulation.
With my analyzer cheap dummy loads have a -92dB noise floor.
Lol! This statement suggests that your analyzer isn't being run properly or its broken.
Would there be harmonic distortion from a 15khz tone that humans could hear or a band limited amp would amplify? Anyway this Voyager amp uses 2 stereo modules bridged which doesn't make sense to me, I think one could find a better amp for less mony.
It’s not. And that’s what confuses people with no hands on experience. I read that thread over on ASR and the answers from the armchair engineers were to increase the bandwidth so harmonics out of the band of human hearing would tell us what was needed to know. Poor answer. That wouldn’t tell us any meaningful information.
What the 15khz test tone could potentially do is put strain on the amp, which in turn worsens the harmonics from the 1khz test tone. As well as increase the noise floor of the amp. Because performance within the audible band is what audiophiles care about. But some folks must only listen to music where all the tones are at 1khz. So this test would be meaningless for them.
What the 15khz test tone could potentially do is put strain on the amp, which in turn worsens the harmonics from the 1khz test tone. As well as increase the noise floor of the amp. Because performance within the audible band is what audiophiles care about. But some folks must only listen to music where all the tones are at 1khz. So this test would be meaningless for them.
To be clear, the conclusion isn’t supported by the opening statement. You don’t know anything about me
This isn’t about you. It’s about the specs of the analyzer you claim to own. Unless the manufacturer is lying. There's been some innovations in this field since 1982.
but that measured distortion numbers and signal to noise, etc.....have any correlation to sound?......show me. show me the test results that prove it.
Isn’t it obvious that any audio device which injects spurious noise into the input signal which is measured at the output is not true to the source? If you like distortion, that’s fine, enjoy. But it’s called "hi-fi" not "hi-di".
This GaN amp is like the old tripath class d amp of 20 years ago- output dependent on the load. It may play nicely with some speakers but not with others. You can add or change the distortion all you want, it still isn’t state of the art and a second class implementation in comparison to other class d amps available for much less money. You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear, so they say.
I guess if a tree falls in the forest it really doesn’t make a sound. That is, only if you don’t have the ears to hear it, or the equipment to detect it.
"I guess if a tree falls in the forest it really doesn’t make a sound. That is, only if you don't have the ears or equipment to hear it. "
As I noted previously, there isn't much sense to respond to someone without the appropriate experience to comment on a matter (no matter what field, audio or otherwise) - e.g.
Because performance within the audible band is what audiophiles care about. But some folks must only listen to music where all the tones are at 1khz. So this test would be meaningless for them.
1khz is within the audible band. I’m guessing 1 khz is chosen because its harmonics are within a reasonable range. Perhaps a sweet spot. Not sure.
Some people may actually wish to listen to a 1khz tone, but there are probably other meaningful therapeutic influences in play should they wish to do so..
You may wish to listen to a 15khz tone by what you have said. A most interesting anomaly. I don't think it would be very pleasant.
The point of the 15khz tone is to see if the amp struggles with those frequencies. As most amps have a much harder time as the frequency climbs above 1khz. And there’s meaningful content in music above 1khz.
Most audio specs aren’t to prove how good the gear handles music. They’re simply for marketing purposes. And when the consumer doesn’t understand what actually matters, 1khz is enough to get the job done. ASR is a great example. The quality chart that everyone buys gear based on is all of a 1khz THD+N spec. So Amir's partners (Topping for example), just need to design gear that maximizes that spec (sound quality with music irrelevant), and the commissions come rolling in from the frenzy of sales.
I would be really interested if you could show that they make even a 10th of a dB difference to the noise floor. In practice that seems difficult at best since you'd need an anechoic chamber to prove it.
Why would an anechoic chamber be required? The proper way to measure the noise and distortion of the system before the drivers is an audio analyzer. Would you measure an amplifier though a speaker in an anechoic chamber?
In case anyone cares, since Mike is too lazy to read the full test or understand the measurements, here is what is in it:
SINAD at 1KHZ
SNR - 20Khz (for these two, it s noted that the gain is only 19db which improves the result)
32 tone multi-tone IMD, far harder than 1KHz + 15KhZ. This spans from 20Hz to 20KHz, and if you know how to read it, you can see the impact of harmonics from multiple tones.
FR into 4/8 ohms
High frequency unattenuated switching noise
1K-20KHz crosstalk
THD+N from 50mW to 100W at 1KHz, 4 and 8 ohm, 45KHz at 20Hz, 500Hz, 1KHz, 5KHz, 10Khz, 15KHz.
Has @mivmikenever read past the first page or does he not understand the rest of the measurements?
And the only thing ASR sycophants care about is 1khz SINAD. Here’s the holy grail for them. The best way to land sales is to keep the consumer dumbed down to only needing to understand 1 number.
If Amir really wanted to educate people. this chart would be of THD+N vs power vs frequency over a 20-20k bandwidth. But his Chinese partners would have a harder time winning that game.
@mivmikeare you just upset they kicked you out? I read that thread, it looks like this is the 3rd of 4th time. It seems you get no love from the people there.
The sychophants, will often do further analysis on the data posted, compare to others, etc. If your attention span is one graph, you should not get angry at others, but look to yourself.
I’ve known Amir for 6 years. Long before he started ASR. He made me my own section on his previous forum "what’s best forum". Because I quadrupled the amount of traffic with my posts. But then he got banned from his own forum from his own partner!
I was one of the original members back when the forum was dead. It was me who told him how to increase the traffic to the forum. It was only because he took my advice that the forum is where it’s at today. But when I seen his true motives, I had enough.
I was one of the original members back when the forum was dead. It was me who told him how to increase the traffic to the forum. It was only because he took my advice that the forum is where it’s at today. But when I seen his true motives, I had enough.
And the only thing ASR sycophants care about is 1khz SINAD.
Try as I might, I can’t fathom why you come to this forum to piss and moan about what is going on at a different forum. If you have an issue with ASR and the owner, why aren’t you over there ranting? I don’t, and I am pretty sure most others don’t, care about your issues with ASR.
Just noticed that Amir deleted most of my likes from my old ASR profile. He was so jealous when I had more than he did.
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