I have a straight run from speakers to amp - no braiding or twisting and it sounds pretty damn good. Will I realize an additional benefit twisting the + and - around each other from speaker to amp?
Looking for really fine cables at really low price
I have been listening to excellent sounding Exemplar exception cables for the last several weeks. While my HFCables are better they are also much more expensive than the below $500 cables.
They offer an excellent sound stage, dynamics, and top to bottom quality sound. Not only are they inexpensive but they are very portable and easy to install.
I am not a dealer or investor in this company.
They offer an excellent sound stage, dynamics, and top to bottom quality sound. Not only are they inexpensive but they are very portable and easy to install.
I am not a dealer or investor in this company.
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Hi Grannyring, with speaker cables and power cords, low inductance and low resistance are considered good. Heavier gauge wire reduces resistance and effective geometry can reduce inductance. A star-quad geometry is considered to lower inductance compared to a twisted pair and may also offer benefits by reducing the amount of stray magnetic field pickup. I first heard about star-quad geometry from Jon Risch and Chris VenHaus (before he started VH Audio) over on Audio Asylum years ago. The geometry consists of twisting four wires together in an even twist that is tight enough to maintain shape when bent in normal use, but not so tight as to over-stress the conductors. The "star" part comes when you cross-connect the wires. In other words, connect one pair of wires that are opposite (not next to) each other for the positive polarity and the other opposite pair for the negative side. Chris VenHaus uses this geometry for his well-regarded Flavor 4 DIY power cable as illustrated by his star-quad DIY bulk power cable. I believe braiding can have a similar effect in lowering inductance and is successfully used by Kimber, HomeGrown Audio, and most spectacularly by Jena Labs. Back in the early days of these websites, many folks successfully braided CAT 5 cable to make speaker cables. The multiple small gauge solid core braided wires is a theme used by Chris VenHaus in his well-regarded Chela cable and by HomeGrown Audio in their top-of-the-line X-32 silver speaker cables. I believe Jena's wire is stranded, as is Kimber's. Unfortunately, I have little experience with braiding cables. |
Granny, I liked your thought to try a simple twisted pair but wanted more wire than 16 awg so I decided to also try some of the larger 14 awg that Teresa (tajacobs) is selling. The individual strand size is the same as with the smaller 16 awg wire. Theoretically, the quad run of 16 awg should perform better due to the star quad geometry I plan to use, the smaller individual wire gauge (e.g., 16 vs. 14 awg should have less skin effect, if you believe in that at audio frequencies) and the larger aggregate size (13 vs. 14 awg) but the differences are small so, you never know. |
I think in combo with the Belden 8402, in my system, the initial more mellow highs that you heard remain a constant. If I switch in the Silnote Reference (silver/gold/copper) also a excellent interconnect, it does become a bit more lively, but not better. The Belden/WE combo gets it all with an extended top end, but with a more natural flow and manner. Your descriptor, "relaxed" is apropos. I'm very interested in your experiment to try a double run. |
Mitch2 I have more wire here I am going to try a double run on each leg to compare to one. Simple to do and I am now quite familiar with the sound of just one run. This wire does become quite a bit more lively in the top end after 50 hours or so of burn in. I actually liked the initial more mellow highs better. They are still quite good however. Wonder if more gauge on the bass will help give more bottom end to match the mids and highs livlyness. No doubt more hours have changed the wire in the upper mids and highs. |
Mikirob, Looks like you have lots to look forward to. Luckily, my Clearwave Duet 6 monitors are already internally wired with Supra tinned, stranded copper wire so there is some kind of continuity in place now doing it's magic. From the amp to the crossovers, and on to the speaker drivers, the wire is all the same. I couldn't ask for more as the wire's contribution to the voicing is about constant as it can be. That might have a lot to do with it. Whether it's the 'absolute truth', I wouldn't dare say but it's the best I've heard in my room. Like I've already stated, everything is so open, clean, clear, relaxed and yet dynamic and extended with not a hint of glare or harshness. It's still digital in nature but not like what I'm used to hearing. To say it's more like analogue would be a reach, but not a great reach as it tends to the smoothness of analogue but retains the better qualities of digital. All the best, Nonoise |
Nonoise, Thanks for the info on Triode Wire Labs power cable. I suspect you are absolutely right, both Supra and TWL did their homework and their internal wire could possibly be the old WE stuff of various gage. I am planning to make a bunch of changes to my various systems (3 currently). Since hearing the Bekden 8402 and Western Electric stranded tinned copper I'm extremely Jazzed and inspired. So much so, that I'm going to change my internal wiring on my Coincident Dynamo/speakers in my office system. Going to be a busy summer, fall. Over time I will likely change most of my power cords to Triode Wire Labs. If I was going to start a cable company I would locate all the NOS Western Electric stranded tin copper wire I could find worldwide of various gage and build speaker cables, power cords with it. I suspect places like Sweden, other places have tons of this wire warehoused. |
On Jeff Days's blog site it shows his cables being "cooked" on a device as part of his break in process. I, myself, enjoy the many and varied twists and turns a cable takes. Just when I think it's reached it's potential, I always love it when I'm 'disappointed' by yet another level of improvement. :-) My Supras are nothing short of amazing and I truly hope all of you enjoy the same level of satisfaction with your WE 16ga cables. On another note, I read a review of Triode Wire Labs power cords and the maker, Peter Grzybowski, uses wire designed by Western Electirc decades ago for use in theater amp applications including 300B amps and Westrex recording equipment. It seems Western Electric was on to something and companies like Supra did their due diligence in designing their line. All the best, Nonoise |
Grannyring, My WE 16ga maintained smoothness throughout the break-in, yet kept getting better with time in regard to detail and imaging. They are especially a good match with the Belden 8402. With this combo in my system I get the superb imaging and detail, with as you describe, smoothness, absolutely no glare or electronic signature. Very relaxed, but dynamic with great tone, texture, scale and other positive attributes mentioned in the Day Blog. They are relaxed, but capture it all top to bottom in an extremely engaging, pleasing way. |
John421, Individual length, so, if you need a one (1) meter pair of interconnect you need approximately six (6) feet of cable. Best-Tronics will cut for you any length as long as you buy their minimum of ten (10) feet. Best-Tronics will also terminate for you if you want that done. For example, I wanted two pair of interconnect, one three (3) foot and one six (6) foot; so I bought eighteen feet of Belden 8402, Best-Tronics cut and terminated with the terminations I asked for: I asked for Switchcraft RCA. Bingo, two pair terminated, arrived from order to finish about 5 days. On their site they have a box for questions. A helpful fellow named Bartoz quickly got me all settled. Best, Rob |
If the WE 16ga speaker wire is anything like the Supra Ply 3.4W, then 100 hrs sounds about right. My Supras were great out of the box and just got better and better as the hours piled on. I thought that at 50 hrs they wouldn't get any better but I was so wrong on that account. They got even better after the 100 hr mark. All the best, Nonoise |
I needed a longer set of speaker cables and received 28 feet of the WE16 GA today. I made a set of cables with bare wire connections on both ends. I have had them playing for 4 hours now. They replaced very highly regarded $1500 cables. Thus far I am very impressed with the WE16. Not as detailed or an image champ like my other cables, but these have a very special relaxed and inviting sound. No glare at all.....none of that digital glare or forced highs. None! Very smoooooth! Just easy to listen to and quite engaging in an unforced and inviting way. Some may find them a tad to mellow if they like silvery highs and a more upfront sound. I will let them settle in more. |
Mikirob, Per this: If anyone here wants the WE 16ga, tajacobs, seller on eBay is legitimate. Most of the Day/Yazaki-san readers are buying from him. I have no connection to tajacobs, just a happy buyer. Day's blog provide a link to seller of Belden 8402. They can terminate RCA or other type for you. Are you referring to Best-Tronics Pro Audio? Also, it seems that Yazaki-san on Jeff Day's sight has a special way to terminate the ICs. Will Best-Tronics terminate in the same manner upon request? |
Grannyring, I also posted about the WE16ga and Belden over on the Rebbi speaker thread that you participate in. Doesn't seem like too many folks over there care to make an inexpensive experiment. As I stated before, I've dumped my expensive speaker Cables and interconnect for the WE 16ga and Belden 8402, sounds superb with my Coincident amp. Jeff Day has Aldo been interesting and a straight shooter. Lots of good tips. His turntable is a beautiful piece of functioning art. |
Sorry for all the cutting and pasting. Jeff Day does allow to share the blog, so I hope this information is helpful to anyone interested. It helped me. You also might want to read directly from blog about the WE 16ga along with all the comments. And thank you sincerely to Yazaki-san for bringing these wires to our attention. My deepest respect and gratitude. Best, Rob |
More from Jeff Day Wordpress Blog: Think about this for a moment: It turns out that back in the day that Belden 8402 was the choice for microphone cables in a fair number of recording studios (and other pro-audio applications), so there’s a reasonable chance that for your beloved recordings, the live music went to the microphone, down the Belden 8402 microphone cable, and onto the master tape. Part of what you and I associate with ‘the master tape sound’ is unsurprisingly the sonic characteristics of Belden 8402 microphone cable. Leo, Pete, Ron, Stephaen, and I played a bunch of different mono & stereo records and had a blast listening to music. So how did the Belden 8402 microphone cable sound as an RCA interconnect? Fantastic! Even with zero time on them, straight out of the package from Tokyo, they sounded amazingly good. Smooth and natural, very refined, timbrally realistic, beautiful tone color, and terrific musicality. Yazaki-san regards the Belden 8402 microphone cable “as some kind of ultimate” and I wouldn’t disagree. We did a little A-B listening with my normal reference, the seriously good Sablon Audio Panatela interconnects ($950 USD for a 1-meter pair), which those of you who have been following along, know that I really love. The Belden 8402 and Sablon Audio Panatela interconnects sound totally different from each other in the way they’re voiced, yet they’re both fantastic sounding interconnects. So which pair of interconnects was the favored pair in our listening sessions? It was actually a split decision. Two listeners preferred the Sablon Audio Panatela interconnects (Leo and Stephaen), two preferred the Belden 8402 (Pete and Ron), and one called it a draw between them (me). The bottom line is that I think the Panatela and Belden 8402 are the two best interconnects I’ve heard in my hi-fi experience, and as I get more time on the Belden 8402’s I’ll follow up with more detailed impressions and comparisons. Here’s the tricky part: the Belden 8402 is non-existent in the USA from the normal audio outlets. Sorry about that. You can find it from a few pro-audio providers, but it’s sold from Belden in 500-feet spools as a minimum order, so it’s hard to find shorter lengths. So you’re probably wondering how much it would cost to build a 1-meter pair of interconnects using Belden 8402. Well, about a $1000 USD. Kidding! Belden 8402 sells for about $2.75 USD per foot or less, depending where you buy it. So it’ll cost you less than $50 USD to build a 1-meter pair of interconnects. It is an incredible bargain. I searched high and low for someone who sells it by the foot here in the US, and I found one pro-audio supplier that was willing to sell it by the foot (10-feet minimum order), Best-Tronics Pro Audio in Tinley Park, Illinois. Here’s a link to their Belden 8402 page where you can buy it by the foot. |
1markr, guys, Here is what you are looking for regarding the RCAs: I asked Yazaki-san how he planned to construct the interconnects, as there are a couple of different conventions for connecting a shielded two-conductor cable to RCA plugs. Yazaki-san told me, “One conductor is connected to the hot of the RCA plug. And the one more conductor is connected to the grounding of RCA plug with the shield of the cable. In my opinion, the audio signal has AC component, overlapped with DC component and AC current flows forward and backward. And so the conductor to the hot could flow AC forward current and the other conductor to the grounding could flow AC backward current under the same condition. And also grounding, one conductor and the shield could bring out the lower impedance for grounding.” So in Yazaki-san’s method, one conductor goes to the RCA pins (hot), the other conductor goes to the plug housings (ground), and the shield is connected at each end to the ground. This is a little different connection method than is traditional here in the USA, where the norm is to connect one conductor to hot (pins), one conductor to ground (plug housings), and connect the shield only on one end (normally the preamplifier end) to the ground. Connecting the shield to ground on both ends has some potential risks, decreasing the effect of the shielding slightly, creating the possibility of a ground loop in some applications, and creating the possibility that noise voltages or currents from the shield can get on the signal conductor (Henry Ott, Reducing Noise in Electronic Systems, second edition, page 58). However, I found no issues at all with Yazaki-san’s connection method in my system, and as you’ll read in a moment, it sounded fantastic. |
Hello 1markr, Please read the Jeff Day Wordpress blog, those questions are answered there. Most people just loosely twist the plus and minus together, not necessary though, some folks seem leave them parallel. Trial and error in your system likely the way to go. I bought both the red and black, loosely twisted the plus/minus together and gave the bare tinned copper ends some twists. With respect to the Belden I believ Yazaki-san dropped the shield entirely, I'll have to go back and check. Of course other folks did one or the other. Go read the blog to make sure for yourself, I could be mistaken. Best, Rob |
I am going down the same road with the WE16ga speaker cable and the Belden 8402 / Switchcraft ICs. If nothing else, should be a fun experiment. I really like my current Zu Events and MAC ICs (Palladium and Mystics), but I have an open mind! 2 questions that come to mind: - On the Belden, is it best to connect the shield to one RCA (on the source side), or to both sides? - On the WE16ga, to twist + and - together, and if so, # of twists / ft. or just leave them parallel? It may take trial on error on both scenarios to figure out the best, but that will take time. Looking for some thoughts here, since sound will be affected based on the above. |
Metman & Nonoise, I like your description and tend to agree with Nonoise earlier comment, tinned stranded copper, Supra/WE, "kissing cousins" is likely right. It has such an organic natural flow, less the electronic artifacts, full, texture, color, provides a nice emotion connection to the musicians. Everything is in balance. No etch, glare, quiet. Dynamics can be startling. I just love the tone. Rob |
When it comes to speaker cable, it's the same with me: it's too expensive to experiment. As tempted as I am to buy some bulk WE wire, I'm going to sit this one out as the Supra's are still breaking in and getting better all the while. Last night I listened to a CD that I've heard hundreds of times over the last few years for the first time. There it was, all laid out before me in the most natural and organic way. It was the most effortless presentation I've heard yet not in the least forward or forceful unless dictated by the musicians. Every single note, nuance and musical inflection came through, right as rain. No highlighting, etch, or glare contributed to the effect. It could almost be described as laid back. I now see why some reviewers cite that phrase as nothing needs to be exaggerated to convince you you're hearing the real thing as intended. It's a complete, full bodied gestalt of a presentation that can lull you into the performance and shock you with the dynamics when called for. I'm loving it. All the best, Nonoise |
I was never one to experiment very much with speaker wire considering how expensive many of them are so I really can't compare the WE wire to brand X or Y but I can definitively say the WECO wire has made a big difference in my system and I only have approximately ten or so hours on them and can only imagine them getting better as they run in. From a price/value standpoint these are off the charts. How difficult is it to solder connectors to the Belden 8402 cable, I would really like to save some money trying it myself |
I did the same and the seller still has wire. Lots of wire. Some in red cloth and some in black but with different or no writing on the wire. There's no reason to think it's different as batches will vary over time when it comes to what's printed on it. They both are 25 strands of tinned copper. There's also some 14ga of about 40 strands of tinned copper from around the same era and who's to say how that would sound? All the best, Nonoise |