Looking for really fine cables at really low price

Grannyring I made interconnects out of WE16ga speaker wire today. A quick listen sounds like we would all expect. Very natural tone. More in about a week :)

Well Al, Rob and others here is an update on the Belden as a digital cable. After 124 hours of burn in the Belden is very good. The Sablon and Belden are very, very close in my particular rig. I would say the Sablon has a tad more upper end air...just a tad. I would say the Belden is more natural and organic sounding with a larger stage. It seems to be a tad more natural sounding and inviting if you will. So yes the Belden makes a great digital cable after full burn in. It sounds muddy and a little closed in and dull at first. Give it time and you will be pleased. At $30 you you be very, very pleased.

My system is very revealing and my Raal tweeters seem to be a good match with the Belden cable. Your system may yield a different result. I like it a lot.

Some may like the Sablon better in my system as it really depends on your sonic preference. Both are very good for sure. I suppose in Aphile terms and on great recordings Sablon is the winner. There is just something about the Belden that works for me across a wider array of recordings.

A perfect description.
Thank you Grannyring.

Sorry Richard as I just saw this after reading your Agon email. All 4 wires are in one Tech flex netting per side. I twisted two positive WE runs and then separately twisted two negative WE runs. I then twisted the double runs and placed in Tech Flex netting. The final twisting of the two double runs was not tight at all, but just enough to keep the entire cable together.

Grannyring when you said
"I now have two runs per pole of the WE wire. I twisted them and put a nice black Tech Flex netting over them."
Did you place 2 wires in 4 pieces of Tech Flex or 4 wire in 2 pieces of Techflex ?
Thanks

To add,tonality, dynamics, soundstaging, imaging, balance and above all musicality all have taken a leap foward. A realistic and natural presentation like I have not had before . My cd based system sounds like analog. Well recorded disc puts the performance in the room in a way that is making me smile and enjoy very much. Also I played some disc that normally sit idle due to not so great recording or transfer to digital, now have become enjoyable to listen and it sounds like music. For the price of this combination of cables I think it's an outstanding bargain. Looking forward to see how much better this becomes with full break in.

My initial thoughts on belden i/cs . Keep in mind they have about 20 hrs in my system I have no burner. When the first installed I found them completely different from other interconnects that I currently use such as Straight wire, Chord, JPS labs, Acrolink or Increcable. I is hare many of the findings of Jetrexpro in the bass and a bit bright using it between preamp and amplifier. Then I had found in the post that it is the gold rca that is recommended. I should have read Jeff blog , I have the nickle rca which is probably contributing to brightness. However I moved the belden to my cd to pre and my Acrolink from pre to amp and it is ABSOLUTELY THE BEST my system has ever sounded . I will probably wait to 100 hrs and then order the belden with gold rca,s and maybe some gold rca,s to replace the nickle on my current ic,s. Note The belden cables have improved with just 20 hrs and should continue with more time .

Well said Al and the explaination was perfect! I will compare the 52 ohm Belden to the 75 ohm Sablon once the Belden has more time on it.

I did notice a slight loss of detail initially and perhaps this is the reason. I had assumed it was due to lack of burn in, but we will see.

Hi Bill,

In the analog domain 52 ohms vs. 75 ohms is, as you appear to be saying, an insignificant difference. However when it comes to digital signals, the effects which come into play at the very high frequencies which are present to a significant degree in their risetimes and falltimes (those terms referring to the transition times of a digital signal between its two voltage states, which in the case of digital audio signals involve significant frequency components extending to tens and perhaps hundreds of MHz) 52 ohms vs. 75 ohms is a considerable mismatch. The reason being that at those frequencies "RF transmission line effects" come into play. Which result, in the case of a significant impedance mismatch, in signal reflections bouncing back and forth between the connected components, causing some degree of distortion of the waveform as received by the destination component.

Whether that waveform distortion will result in sound that is subjectively better, worse, or the same than if the impedance mismatch did not exist will depend on a great many complex and essentially unpredictable variables involving the technical characteristics of the signal, the cable, the length of the cable, both of the connected components, and (from a subjective standpoint, at least) the rest of the system.

My point is simply that such a mismatch can be expected to cause the sonic performance of the cable to be inconsistent and not very predictable among different systems, and very conceivably also among different cable lengths.

In any event, enjoy! Best regards,
-- Al

Well, RCA connectors do not conform to the "strict" 75 ohm adherence that we read about as being so important in digital. We also read to never use twisted wire as a digital cable, but my Sablon is twisted wire, not coax, and it sounded far better then the true coax cables I had tried before.

I guess there are several camps of thought regarding digital cable builds and what is ideal. I let my ears tell me, but it is somewhat confusing that the math would suggest to not use twisted wire or 50 ohm, but the ears say otherwise? Help?

Meant to say the Belden sounds better.....

Al, help me with your last post. My current Sablon is 75 ohm and this sounds better thus far. 52 ohm vs 75? Not much difference and you seem to be saying it is a poor match!

Regarding use of the Belden 8402 as a digital cable, keep in mind that its "characteristic impedance" is specified as 52 ohms, which will result in a considerable mismatch to the impedances of the digital components it would be used with. I would expect that to result in its sonic performance in digital applications varying considerably from system to system, and in some cases even among different lengths of the cable when connecting the same components.

In any event, glad to read of so many positive experiences with the Belden and WE cables. And it all reinforces the points several of us have made in past threads about the weak correlation that can be expected between cable performance and cable price.

Best regards,
-- Al

Grannyring,
Any further update on your digital DIY. Inquiring minds want to know...Rob

I have not tried the WE wire for IC's, but may well do that. I bet they would have the same great bass as they do when used for speaker cables.

This stuff is the real deal.
At $110 total complete for 2 pair 3 ft of 8402 and 32 ft. WE16ga is an excellent bargain. I have been using these now for a few months and they are all what everyone says they are. I also picked up another 29ft of the WE cable. The 8402 is constructed as recommended, shields both ends connected and Switchcraft golds.

These cables together create an atmosphere of relaxed but live venue not matched by many cables.ANd they get better yet. I removed a lot of money in WyWires Silver cables here. My digital as vinyl sounds the best it has ever sounded. I might go after more Belden 8402 before that disappears.

I forgot to mention that I bought some of the last 7ft pieces of WE16ga that tajacobs has for sale on eBay so I can have some on hand for more speaker cable and to expiriment with making interconnects out of them. Grannyring, have you tried that yet? Regards Jet.

Mitch2, understand your thoughts but simply want to point out all connectors have a sound. I don't use binding post either as they also hurt the sound. I just use them as a clamp to hold the wires. That is the best connection.

Mitch2, Jetrexpro,
Agreed, appreciate all the experimenting, good luck and let us know what you find out. Best, Rob

Belden IC's have continued to sound clear and clean but with a rich and natural tone throughout the frequency range.

Thanks Jetrexpro for the clarification. That is pretty much what I look for in all my components and cables so I look forward to finishing the IC project. After all the work you have put in, you are obviously very in-tune with the sound of your well-done system, and what you are looking for. Good luck finding the right ICs.

Mitch2,
The "extra warmth" was the phrase I used to describe the sound of the lower mids before the Belden IC's were fully broken in. I had become concerned since I had well over 100 hours on them and still hearing in my system on many classical orchestral recordings, the lower strings sounding thick and muddy. At about 150 hours the muddiness cleared up and the Belden IC's have continued to sound clear and clean but with a rich and natural tone throughout the frequency range.

Today I put the Kondo KSL-LP interconnects back in and I do appreciate the added transparency depth and detail they provide. A truly beautiful deep musical presentation. As I have mentioned above I dont think I will buy the Kondo IC's, but ultimately I would like to find interconnects that have the musicality and tone of Belden but also a bit more transparency and deeply nuanced sound of Kondo. My system is capable of all of the above musical traits and it makes sense for me to look for an interconnect that I would be 100% satisfied with.

Grannyring and Mikirob, the 6-foot long SCs are already constructed using Cardas GRS spades. They were burned in for over 2 days on the Audiodharma cooker and then for another full day in my system with Ayre's Full Glide Tone. They sound very good and I doubt the spades made much difference one way or another since the signal also routes through two sets of Cardas binding posts, at the amp and speakers. I do believe that running the cables as an external bi-wired pair, doubling both the MF/HF and LF runs (4 wires to each) for less resistance, using the larger 14awg wire for LF while keeping the 16awg for the MF/HF, and the closely spaced/twisted quad geometry (which reduces inductance), all probably played a positive role, particularly since I am driving moderately efficient (but known to be power hungry) speakers using a powerful high current amplifier. I suspect the aggregate 13 awg for MF/HF and 11 awg for LF is more than adequate for a 6-foot run but I would be interested in hearing even larger versions of this wire.

Regarding the ICs, I cannot use the same connectors as everyone else here because my system is fully balanced - so I need XLR connectors. The two I mentioned, Furutech 601/602 and Vampire XLR, are connectors I have on-hand for cable projects, so would not cost me anything. I looked up Switchcraft XLR connectors and the pins are listed as being a "copper alloy." The Vampire connectors are also listed as having copper alloy pins. The Furutech connectors have beryllium copper and phosphor bronze pins that have been treated with Furutech's proprietary Alpha process, which includes demagnetization and cryogenic treatments.

I would have no problem ordering Switchcraft XLR connectors from Parts Express since they would only cost me about $35 for all 8 connectors (I am making two pairs of cables) but I am skeptical there would be a sonic difference between those and the Vampire connectors, since the signal will be traveling through high quality Cardas XLR connectors at the amp and preamp. OTOH, the Furutech connectors have improved the sound of every cable I have used them on.

I appreciate that Mr. Shirokazu Yazaki and Jeff Day brought these good sounding wires to our attention (and that you guys have shared your findings so prompting me to give them a try), but I am not of the belief that the configuration and connectors they use are the only ones that will result in good sound. The laws of physics still apply. I don't mind being the Guinea pig for trying things differently and I will report back on what I hear.

Well an update on the mighty Belden cable with Switchcraft connectors used as a digital cable. The cable only has 10 hours on it thus far. It replaced an outstanding Sablon Audio Panatela pure silver twisted wire digital cable in natural fibers. I purchased it used from a Six Moons reviewer. He used it as his reference for several years. This Sablon cable is outstanding and made my Yamamoto dac really sing compared to other digital cables.

With only 10 hours the $30 Belden is no slouch already. The stage grew wider and taller. The sound is more full bodied and meaty. The music sounds more natural and flowing. The detail retrieval is not quite as good just yet, but we will see after some 50-100 hours. If it continues to open up like my last two sets of BeldenICs, then the mighty Sablon will find a new home.

I find the Belden cable so beautiful sounding. They make the music flow with a musical ease and smoothness that escapes most big dollar cables. They do sound a little muddy at first in the mid to lower bass, but that also resolves itself after full burn in.

Glare. I hate it. Glare is something the Belden cable seems to hate more than I. It is not there....smooooooth!

Mitch2,
Seriously, take Grannyring's advice. Shirokazu Yazaki-san, the superb Japanese designer and builder who alerted us all to this WE and Belden spent years experimenting with different combinations of of wires, connectors, solder and so forth; just keep it simple, save the $$$$ and apply the $$$$ elsewhere. This combo is the magic bullet. Jetrexpro was merely talking about burning in time, more for him than me. Jeff Day and about 99.33% of the folks swear by this combo. Don't over complicate something that is really simple and inexpensive. Give it a chance to work for you. Best, Rob.

I may be mistaken but the reason for terminating untinned copper wires is because it is susceptible to oxidation which does affect the sound. If they're tinned just use the bare wire with no worries

Mitch2, I am an avid DIY builder with gear and wire. I know you want to use the better connectors, I get it, but please use the same Switchcraft connectors that usually come with these Use the same exact build, connecting the shield on both ends etc...

This stuff is magic as is and proven. "Better" connectors will not necessarily equal better sound. We have a proven recipe here that is so special.

The WE wire sounds better without spades....just bare wire. I tried both. If you must use connectors, then I fully understand. They still sound wonderful with them as you know.

The Belden cable with the Switchcraft connectors just plain works. Major Mojo stuff here! Like tomato and bacon! Like bacon and eggs! Like bacon and anything really....

After Six days the extra warmth has gone away.

Please explain "extra warmth" since I thought these IC cables display an inherently warm midrange similar to the WE speaker cables. I have the speaker cables in my system now and I am trying to find time to make the ICs but need to decide which connectors to use. I have both the very good Furutech FP601/602 (G) and the pretty good Vampire XLR connectors here that I could use. At $170/pr the Furutechs seem like overkill compared to the cost of the wire, but they are the best sounding XLR connectors I have heard so will be worth it if there is a chance I will keep these cables in my system for good and, based on what I am hearing from the speaker cables, that is possible.

Jet,
Really happy they finally got burned in. For some reason my wire took less time.

Rob/Grannyring, After Six days the extra warmth has gone away. These Belden ICs are sounding great. Suprising that it took this long since before putting them in they spent a full 100 hours burning in in the back room.

Jetrexpro,
As Grannyring has stated, be patient, about 100 hrs, everything keeps improving. Best, Rob

Rob, agreed that it is difficult to record strings and not get a muddled mess unless the engineer knows what they are doing and are recording in a great hall. I'm going to continue to use the Belden and spend plenty of time enjoying the music flowing into my living room. Many recordings sound great so I am not too concerned for now. It is looking likely that I will not buy the Kondo IC. The WE/Belden combo makes flesh and blood music and Kondo is a very lovely sounding cable but it does not make flesh and blood music like the Belden. For now I am pitching my tent in Belden/WE country to see if these will be my long term IC.

Further comments on IC's with my WE speaker wires. I tried a pair of ancient van den Hul D300S from my Luminescence preamp to the NAD C272 amp, into Magnepan MMGs.

Initial impression was one of detail and "lightness". After a few days, overall sound became a bit harsher. I liked the "airiness" but not the harshness. This morning I dug out another ancient IC, Monster Cable M1000 MKII, which yielded quite a different result. Fuller, better bass, but still good detail. More pleasant than the van den Hul. I'll give this combo a few days for break-in and to get a better sense of other qualities, such as sound stage. So far I like it.

Meanwhile I'll order some Belden wire and make a pair of IC's to compare. According to the rest of you guys, the Belden is THE one. :)

What a fun and inexpensive experiment/journey this little project is.

Jet,
The lower strings are anything but muddy in my system on classical or any other style of music. I was just commenting to my wife how clear these regions were on the Bach, Stokowski, London Phase4Stereo, Toccata & Fugue in D minor which has a large quantity of lower mids and bass. Quite astoundingly good, great in fact; or take a well-recorded Jazz album such as Louis Armstrong &Duke Ellington/The Complete Sessions/Deluxe Edition, that I listened to this morning, you couldn't ask for better lower mids or bass. Plus the emotion of these various pieces really shine through. As a bass player myself I am extremely sensitive to any shortcoming in this region of music. I will say this though: many recordings out there are a muddled mess to begin with and unfortunately not much you can do with them. Huge amount of crappy sound engineering or further down the road mishaps in the recording or manufacture process.

The WE16g is sounding awesome in my system. Agree with Grannyring that the Belden/WE combo is very musical and has a rich beautiful natural tone for days and days! One thing that bothers me a bit about the Belden IC's is the extra warmth and richness I am hearing in the lower mids and bass. On many of my recordings vinyl and CD it lends an extra glow or heat that is very emotionally engaging. But in my system on many classical orchestral recordings, the lower strings become muddy. This is all very system dependent so take this with a grain of salt if you are not hearing that. At this point the Belden's are no brainer good, but I need to listen for a while longer to see how much of an issue this might be for me and my listening tastes - Regards Jet

A tightly twisted, tinned copper pair in rubber with a braid shield that is not at all spaced away from the conductors....I can hardly wait.
If it sounds as good as you say, and beats what I am using, I will have to give up being skeptical!

But the best part is still ahead of you. The Belden ic matched with this WE wire takes it up to a whole new realm. The combo is unbeatable and unmatched in my experience as well as the experience of many others.

I know. I had to discard all of my previous knowledge, experience and assumptions with this magic wire.

After 24 hours of Ayre's full glide tone they now sound even better.
Stranded and tinned, with a rubber('ish) dielectric....who wouldda thought?

Mitch2, just wait to they burn in more and stay put and settle into your system. You have only a taste of what is coming. I replaced Jupiter solid core copper in cotton inside my speaker with WE and wow!

After two days on the cooker the WE16/14 star-quad bi-wire speaker cables are now in my system.
They sound pretty darn good. I am not really surprised since I know you guys have pretty good ears but sheesh, I could have saved a bundle on speaker cables over the years!
Compared to the double run of HT Pro 11+/reterminated, the WE 16/14 wire sounds maybe just a little warmer with a little less (excessive) bloom in the bass, and a little more up front with vocals. Maybe a little wider and deeper soundstage. Tonal quality is very good. High frequencies sound quite natural. The bass I am hearing is full and has good punch. Not a night and day difference from the HT cables but a little more of this and a little less of that, mostly in a good way.
This is very similar to the sound I get with Jupiter copper wire in cotton, but maybe a little tonally warmer than the Jupiter, which sounds good tonight but makes me wonder whether the tinning is causing a sort of euphonic warmth.
The test will be to play them for awhile and then put the HT cables back in. Thanks for the suggestion to try this wire. Now I need to get busy on making ICs from the Belden cable I bought.

I wonder if The Cable Company sends out WE wire. Cables have gotten as bad as speakers in that there are way too many for anyone to try enough to make a sound decision (pun intended). I once had the original WE wire. I didn't think much of it. I used it as connection wire within a tube preamp. Of course this was before our crappy solder used today.

The WE16 gauge speaker wire sounds great. I understand what the fuss is all about. The Belden interconnects have over 100 hours of burn in so they went into my system this weekend and these IC's also sound really great as well. They sound completely different than the Kondo KSL-LP interconnects I have been trying. Its easy to hear why so many folks are switching to the WE/Belden combo. Over the next few weeks I'll have a better handle on which interconnects I prefer but at this point I am connecting musically with Belden more than Kondo. Regards-Jet

What is the so-called “burning-in” of a cable ?

A: Any cable’s conductors consist of many groups of atoms, clustered in crystals or atom clusters. The borders between these crystals or clusters are critical zones where electron movements are hindered when the condition of these boundaries is getting worse. This worsening takes place e.g. when your loudspeaker cable is moved every day and/or chemical activity is around - latter amplified by higher humidity levels, elevated temperatures and air pollution. Also imperfections in the cable insulation can trigger conductivity changes.
Burning-in is the effect that, despite any affected crystal borders, the sound quality improves again thanks to electron movement through conducting zones like so-called electron tunnels. But... when you move a cable again, those tunnels are “broken” and you then have to start again by playing your music.

Finally, I have a pair of the WE 16awg & 14awg Star Quad Bi-Wire speaker cables burning in on my Cable Cooker. I made these from Western Electric NOS tinned copper wire by twisting 4-14awg wires for the LF and 4-16awg wires for the MF/HF and cross-connecting the pos and neg runs, resulting in two runs of 16awg wire to each MF/HF pole and two runs of 14awg wire to each LF pole. I soldered some Cardas GRS spades to the tinned wire using Cardas quad eutectic solder. Still need to finish them by cleaning flux and adding heat shrink over the connectors.
WE Star Quad Bi-Wire Speaker Cable

Thanks Grannyring!!!
I'll likely go with the Jupiter Flat stacked aluminum. I have every expectation this will make a good speaker much, much better. I like the idea that these caps are organic sounding with a touch of warmth; full of body and weight is a plus for me and my listening bias. I'm really happy for folks like yourself on the Agon, very helpful and a pleasure to read the threads you participate in. That 20% is meaningful. Again thanks for helping a rookie DIY.

Be sure to get 20% off these caps by buying from Sonic Craft as they usually offer that or you can ask. If your speaker has any resistors, then get Path Audio resistors from Parts Connextion. They are simply the best I have heard, even better than Duelund or Mills etc....

Yes, Jupiter copper foils are the first choice followed by Jupiter flat stacked aluminum caps. The latter is warmer and not as resolving, but very organic and full of body and weight. These are much less expensive. The copper foil Jupiter are more resolving and pure. They are more money, but not near the price of the great Duelund caps.

Jetrexpro,
Yeah, my father-in-law is a do everything DIY kind of guy; only problem is is he is a huge procrastinator with everything always half done. Leeds helped my wife though, she has fond memories, remembers the odor well, gave her a big chuckle. She is anxious to move in to our new home, get settled and start building the AN Kit-1. Ultimately, I believe we will end up with AN speakers you own. Elrog 300Bs.

In the meantime we are going to mod the Coincident Dynamo 34SE as well as the Tekton M-Lore speakers. I'm going to re-wire with WE16ga. Do you have any suggestions for the caps in this speaker? Anyone?

P's:

Give them some more time to break as they will continue to improve over time. Ask your wife what she thinks after 100 hours or so

The following is a quote from a lengthy list of FAQ's on the Van Den Hul Website:

"3-8 Q: What is the so-called “burning-in” of a cable ?

A: Any cable’s conductors consist of many groups of atoms, clustered in crystals or atom clusters. The borders between these crystals or clusters are critical zones where electron movements are hindered when the condition of these boundaries is getting worse. This worsening takes place e.g. when your loudspeaker cable is moved every day and/or chemical activity is around - latter amplified by higher humidity levels, elevated temperatures and air pollution. Also imperfections in the cable insulation can trigger conductivity changes.
Burning-in is the effect that, despite any affected crystal borders, the sound quality improves again thanks to electron movement through conducting zones like so-called electron tunnels. But... when you move a cable again, those tunnels are “broken” and you then have to start again by playing your music. You may wonder why (especially) on Sunday evening the music sounds so good again, this after a week with plenty of sound problems. Your cables finally are burned-in. But as soon as the killing Hoover (vacuum cleaning) hour on Monday morning comes and the over-active cleaning lady messes about with your cables, the problem returns: your cables are “burned-out” again, remaining that way until the following Sunday..."