I'll echo a few other posts. I have been using electrostatic speakers since 1978. Tube amps just do not cut it with this type of speaker even if you cross over to a woofer or subwoofer. The impedance drops with increasing frequency and they are essentially capacitors throwing voltage back at the amp. High power transistor amps just handle this better mostly because of their ability to control heat / handle current. If you want tube sound go with any Pass or Curl design. I think they are the best at making solid state sound like tubes. Parasound may have a reasonably priced one as might Pass labs.
If you have to go with Tubes use the low impedance tap.
Sanders Sound Systems has a great white paper on this topic posted on his web site. |
as long of an output impedance as possible.
"as low of an output impedance as possible." Spelling correction for
astelmaszek
Chers George |
It's very odd you've singled out sacd as a culprit of the sibilance, if anything I have found sacd and dsd (sacd with the flag) too mellow in that area and un-naturally smooth. with non of the excitement and drive that RedBook PCM has got.
And then also you said the Sanders amp reduced the sibilance.
Cheers George
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I mean to say as low as possible of an output impedance |
@smills59 If you're really focused on tubes, you need an amp with really, I do mean, really good transformers and as long of an output impedance as possible. I don't know why you're looking at PL or Chronus. There are a few Audio Research VSI75s sitting around for sale around $4500 price point. Pick one of them up. If that won't drive them without sibilance, nothing else will. |
I have a close friend who has Macintosh gear (no tubes) and Maggie speakers. He has many of the same SACDs as I do, and as luck would have it, he has the same SACD by Melody Gardot (Absence) that started me concentrating on sibilance as a potential problem. He is a true audiophile for many years and owns well over 1,000 albums and CDs. Tonight he listened to this SACD with his system and says that he thinks the recording is poor because he hears the same issues with "SH" and "T" especially. I'm thinking I heard that and it was more apparent than in the past because of the higher quality of the Plinius. Once focused on it, I heard it with other music as well. We'll see; I'm going to keep listening ,and not to that SACD, to see if the sibilance I was hearing was real.
Right now I'm sitting back and listening to Grover Washington Jr.--just wonderful!!!
Stay tuned George! |
Rogue Apollo could be a great match |
Oh it's still there. Primarily on one SACD: The Absence by Melody Gardot, and primarily on only two tracts. I do notice it in a small way on other pieces and I'm trying to find out if I'm just really listening for it, it's a recording issue, or an issue with the speaker/amplifier combination. I did read that this can be tamed a bit with different preamp tubes (2), but before I do that, I want to make sure of what I'm hearing. Overall though, this is really minor; most of what I listed to is jazz instrumentals, chamber music, and more easy listening POP, and other than a few tracks, these all sound great. More time will narrow this down. As I said above, the Sanders had it too, just not as directed. Could be it was always there and I just didn't notice it before. Or it wasn't because the Plinius was not up to the task. |
I’m loving it! The Plinius was nice, but this is just a HUGE step up in my system. What happened to the sibilance ( "T" "C" "S" sounds) problem you had after 100hrs of break in with the Prima Luna, which was better with the Sanders amps? Strange you’ve said nothing more about it. Cheers George |
I'm loving it! The Plinius was nice, but this is just a HUGE step up in my system. Listening to Domnerus Antiphone Blues right now and it's just amazing. I have no speakers that I can point to, just beautiful noise. |
Glad you are enjoying it! For me it is all about the music, but you have to research, listen, buy and sell, experiment, and take chances to really learn to even begin to understand what sound you want to get out of your system. So in a sense you have to go through the equipment to get to the music. A super fun hobby, and lifestyle it is.
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Thanks again everyone! Moofoo, I'm 62, and my hearing has also changed. I wish I was into audio when I was younger, but at that time I also didn't have the funds due to raising a family. I'm into it now though!
Just received my credits from Upscale Audio (my Plinius) and Sanders, so settling into the PL now. Currently listening to Crosby, Stills, Nash from the 4 ohm tap. I'll change to the 8 ohm in a few days to compare. Once I've listened to the current tubes, I will probably roll the preamp two tubes just to see if my 62 year old ears hear a difference before moving to others. Fun! |
Go back and read sunshine!! take a pill and chill!
I also said the PL’s "hf peak could" counter that in a very crude way.
A normal tube amp with a flat frequency response (no peak) will roll off the highs with the 1ohm load of the Summits. |
What ? You stated the Primaluna would roll off the highs . Now it the cause of sibilance . Pick one theory and stick with it "Sunshine" |
I have the PL Dialogue Premium (not HP version) and drove the ML ESLs (first version) with it and it sounded great to me. I used EL34s, KT88s, KT77s, KT120, KT150s, 6550s over several years, and various NOS input tubes in the PL, and my PL Prologue Premium pre-amp. I used the 4ohm taps for the MLs and always came back to the SED Winged C EL34 and Sovtek 6550 power tubes. I “serious” listen to only vinyl. Rock, jazz, lots of guitar oriented music, vocals, and the PL ML combination was nice, the panels “disappeared” as they should. Never cared about lots of bass, am 63 and not into shrill sounding anything. Mostly NOS Mullards and Brimars in my pre-tubes, amp included.
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We'll see.
Go back and read, the OP's got some negative questions on the sibilance area of frequency range, and you from memory can understand measurements should know, that esl's don't do sibilance, if anything they excel in that area being smooth, sweet and transparent.
But the PL's upper rising HF FR peak is not a good measurement and a concern with the low impedance of the Summits. And could be the cause. |
george, it seems like you don't understand when to move on and let the man enjoy his new purchase. You need to eventually recognize that measurements are not the only factor in getting good sound....and your opinion is only one out of many.
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The smills59 OP will be back after the tube glow thing has has lost it’s appeal, for the right amp for the Summits as bigddesign3 did with a Krell. As Martin Logan said Summits need current to sound at their best. (BTW current and amps are the same to whoever thought they were different) Cheers George |
smills59,
Enjoy you're new setup. As you found out for yourself, the knowledge/wisdom of the forums is valuable, yet it doesn't replace what your ears ultimately prefer.
If your space allows it, speaker placement /room treatment will optimize their performance further.
Happy listening!
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Well, final decision time. I very much appreciate all the advice and comments in this thread! Definitely shows the passion we all have for this great hobby and the diversity of thought and really, hearing each of us has. There are so many options and variabilities to choose from, but in the end, as many of you have stated, it comes down to our individual hearing preferences, goals, and budget.
Today I returned the Sanders amp. What a great company! They paid to ship the amp to me and allowed me 30 days to trial it. When I told them I was going to return it, they sent me a return notice from UPS - they paid the return shipping costs too! As soon as it arrives, they said they will refund my entire purchase cost. Who does that today? Great people!
Tomorrow I will send my Plinius to Upscale Audio and I will keep the Primaluna. Why? I really love the sound, and I like the idea of tweaking the sound with new tubes. I also spoke with a person who works on tube amplifiers who told me he did not believe I would have any problems with the PL and my Summit X speakers because of the size of the output transformers, which made me feel even better about my decision. This amp is a BIG STEP UP from the Plinius.
Is this the last amplifier I will own? No, it is not. At some point I do want to have a separate preamp and amplifier. When I do, I will consider all the options the participants in this thread have provided, and maybe even a tube preamp with SS amplifier. The PL integrated gives me a chance to try out tubes without breaking my budget by buying separates. And if my hearing becomes more critical and I do hear signs of the amp clipping, I can always sell it and start the upgrade process then. This decision has the added benefit of not having to convince my wife I need another $3000 (HaHa - she does not hear or see value in this hobby, prefering to listen to her music from her phone - yes, her phone!).
Given my budget and hearing, I feel this is the wisest choice right now. I have no doubt there are even better amplifiers out there to consider, but budget does have to be a consideration. I think of this as evolution toward audio nirvana, whatever that looks like to each of us. I definitely have more upgrades in my future.
Thank you again for all your help and guidance!
Steve |
All they shared was that the amplifier needs to have enough amps and current to drive the speakers. Not much help there, unfortunately.
Yes that says a lot, and what I've been trying to tell you. Tube amps cannot do current like solid state amps can, especially the ones being bandied around in this thread. Amp that do current well, are ones that can almost double their full output wattages from 8ohm to 4ohm and again from 4ohm to 2ohm EG: the hypothetical perfect amp that does current well, (there are always losses though) 100w at 8ohms 200w at 4ohms 400w at 2ohms Cheers George |
I have been hanging in the backround reading at the possibilities of ttube integrated over the other SS choice. Here is my take...... Having used a Chinese tube integrated for many years, I went to NuPrime STA-9 Class D amp with my Martin Logans. The sound was so much more dynamic and vocals were just clear in a way that it felt like a veil came off. That was then, and below is now. Martin Logan Montis Speakers I'm using a tube Schiit Freya preamp that has been perfect for allowing for the tube sound, and also the ability to bypass the tubes for passive, or JFET sound. What a preamp, and at $699, a steal. It houses (4) 6SN7 tubes, and they are considered great tubes for sound and tube rolling. Amplfier that is hands down the best at low cost. Vintage Krell. Krell with their Class A sound and power doubling for each change in ohms, just put every other amp to shame. I now have a Krell KSA-200s, and 2 other Krell amps that have been serviced. A serviced vintage Krell will get all new capacitors and another 20 years of life. The sound will equal amps costing $20k or more. High Performance Stereo https://www.highperformancestereo.com/power-amplifiers/solid-state/krellkst100.html has this Krell KST-100 for $1,560. I have this Krell and it would be plenty to drive your Summit at 200 watts/ch @4ohms. The Class A is what seals the deal. Krell is known as having the best dynamics and low end. Speaking of low end. I find that the SummitX or the Montis does better with 2 REL S Series subs. Enhances the whole speaker in a way that you think you got new speakers. Expensive yes, but can be found used for a good price. REL is something you should read up on. Trying to tell you in a sentence is not fair to the experience you will get out of them. Been involved in audio for close to 50 years. I'm still picking my jaw off the ground after going from one REL S3 to 2 REL S3s, now in true stereo. |
Sorry, I thought I'd shared that already. I did call Martin Logan about tube amps, but not specific brands or tube vs solid-state. Their response was very non-committal, probably because they do not want to give a recommendation for specific brands. All they shared was that the amplifier needs to have enough amps and current to drive the speakers. Not much help there, unfortunately. |
Are you trying to say that I shouldn’t rely on the manufacturer’s responses? They are wanting to sell an amp, it will work, but it won't get the best out of the Summits. What you should do instead of wasting time and money seeing now your going around in circles. Is to ask Martin Logan what amp out of the three PL , Rogue, and Sanders will drive the Summits to their best sound possible seeing your stuck on these. And then ask them what amps they have heard that get the very best out of them, then you’ll get an idea of what you’ll need, instead of listening to the non technical on what can drive this hard impedance and capacitive loading. Cheers George |
George, no that's not my motto. If someone reads the arguments against using a tube amp with their speakers, gets a ss amp made for those speakers and a tube amp, compares them in his system and decides he likes the tube amp better, I'm not going to argue with him about it. Life is too short. |
I like that photo, George! Are you trying to say that I shouldn't rely on the manufacturer's responses? I understand that to some degree, but they are both reputable manufacturers/distributors and thus should know their products and speak the truth. If they did not, their reputations would suffer all over the internet, hurting their sales as well. I totally get what the charts are showing, but perhaps listening critically is the best overall indicator of whether something works or it doesn't. |
Technically, you may be right, but we all have to judge with our ears and for all of us this is a continuing journey not a one-and-done. Not when someone could dump money on this https://ibb.co/NZLXFcf that has no chance of getting the very best out of the Summits. It’s better if the do-gooders that can’t decipher measurement, not to say anything if not sure when speakers as hard as these to drive are in the discussion. You’ll just waist the OP’s time and money!!!!! So some of the tubers may eventually come to agree with your point of view, but they’ll do it when they’re ready. Really!!! throw money at it and don’t get it right at first is your moto? |
smills, Sounds like you're in the tubes with MLs camp. If that's what sounds best to you then that's what you should listen to. It sounds like the PrimaLuna gives you a better midrange while the Sanders sounds better in the lows and highs. Is that correct? Keep us informed of your amp tryouts and let us know what you end up with. This information is valuable for other ESL owners.
George, you've made your case and your input and knowledge is appreciated, but many people use tubes with MLs. Technically, you may be right, but we all have to judge with our ears and for all of us this is a continuing journey not a one-and-done. So some of the tubers may eventually come to agree with your point of view, but they'll do it when they're ready. |
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I decided to call Rogue Audio this morning and ask them about their Chronow Magnum III integrated, and how it would do with Summit X speakers. The gentleman I talked with was very knowledgeable and helpful. He said that they have a massive linear power supply and not to worry about impedance. They have many customers with challenging speakers like the Summit X with impedances that go down to 1 ohm and have no issues. The Magnum III weighs 55#. The PL HP has more tubes and weighs 66#. They both claim massive output transformers. |
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The guy still wants to argue a point he thinks a graph will prove.look at the words spoken by the reviewers george. |
The only problem you say your getting, is with "T" "C" "S" sounds
I have a friends with Summits, both series 1 and 2 "X" None of them experience any sibilance at all, in fact they are all very transparent and delicate in the highs, as are my own Monolith III’s with the newer Neolith panels. If I ever had to get rid of the huge Monoliths, the Summit’s are what I would get instead. the speaker is innocent, look at what driving them.
Here is what John Atkinson said about the strange HF peak which starts it's rise at 8khz in the measurements.
" Note the peak between 30 and 50kHz in fig.1. This peak was at its highest from both taps into 8 ohms and higher impedances, but disappeared when the load impedance was well below the nominal transformer-tap value. But with the tap matched to the load, this peak was associated with a significant amount of overshoot on a 1kHz squarewave (fig.2), though a 10kHz squarewave revealed that the consequent ringing was critically damped (fig.3), the amplifier maintaining its stability."
Cheers George |
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"T" "C" "S" are all sibilant sounds, as I said in a link above the hard areas for an with the Summits are 5khz to 20khz (the sibilance area) and again 3.5khz (presence area of the mids). And the Prima Luna has a very odd high frequency boost in the top end which I believe to be output transformer oscillation which could very well exaggerate "sibilance".
https://www.stereophile.com/images/1214PLDPIfig01.jpg
Cheers George |
smills59...if you decide to go w/ the Sanders ESL, I am getting ready to sell a Parasound P3 pre. It will definitely not bust your budget.
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"crackle"
smills59-
Perhaps. imperfection of the recording. Just as you may hear exaggerated "S"
in others?
I notice this occasionally in my system. I have confirmed it being the recording, by playing suspect record at a show/dealer, at it’s heard on the "$$$SYSTEM"
The best systems seem to only distract you because of everything else being so good.
I’ve heard plenty of speakers with the PL.
ML’s to me,sound amazing to me. Same goes for horns, also many of the
usual suspects talked about here. It’s really a personal preference, since the PL will mate with just about every speaker on the market.
Notice I didn’t write ALL.
If you keep the PL, fine tuning is achieved thru the inner gain tubes, power tubes and power cable. The power cable thing is yet another contentious subject which
starts wars here.
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Still listening to them, but here is a quick update:
Sanders:
No doubt this amp has the power and also is beautiful to listen to. I would say that is is much more detailed and refined, bringing out every sound with more clarity than the PL. There are no negatives to it, except for the price to me. I started out looking for an integrated amp to replace my Plinius, but the Sanders would require a preamp, which is not in my budget right now. I could make it work, but is the Sanders $2500 better than the PL? Or do I like it that much more than the PL? That's the question I'm trying to answer right now.
Primaluna Dialogue HP Integrated:
I do love the PL. Like tablejocky above, I don't hear an impedance issue like georgehifi warns about above - and I do appreciate the warning. I read more about the PL, and they claim that the power is ample for the ML Summit X because they are relatively efficient, and that their "massively overbuilt output transformers produce more than enough juice for" my speakers. To me, they seem to be correct. I would say that the PL has more punch than Sanders, the sound is more intense, while the Sanders is more laid back. I'm pretty sold on the PL except for one element that is bugging me:
Listening to some tracks, there seems to be a "crackle" or overly expressed crackle when the artist uses a "T" as in Vermont, or a "C" in some pieces. The Sanders did this too, but it was not as pronounced as in the PL. It's not a BIG issue, but now I'm focused on it. This happens in triode or linear modes, and really only when listening to SACD, which I do a lot. It's almost as if the Sanders presented this less loud and in more detail, and the PL because they are tubes, can't do that. The PL now has about 125 hours of operation, so should be fairly broken in.I don't think this is the impedance thing showing its ugly head, but perhaps someone else can offer an opinion.
Anyone have an opinion about this?
THanks! |
Waiting to hear an update on this. There have been a few similar threads recently on tubs vs SS for Martin Logan. I am in the SS camp but admit I have not tried tubes with the MLs. Also smills59, what speaker cables are you using?
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"Not sure I would put another $800 into the PL, but KT120s might be possible. Any suggestions? Or is it better to replace the two gain tubes fIrst? "
smills59-
Experimenting with the 2 inner gain tubes can fine tune the overall characteristics of whatever power tubes are in the amp.
The EL34’s have great mids and highs. You might hear the KT88,120 as more solid in the bass, but less refined mids. The KT150’s are reported to have the best of the EL34 mids and KT88’s low end.
I had a feeling you would be pleased with the performance of the ML’s/PL. I have a PL HP, and thought ML’s sound great thru it.
As mentioned earlier, your own ears are the best judge.
Still wondering what your impressions are of the Sanders, compared to the PL. I’m guessing the Sanders may subjectively, catch your attention in some areas, but wont sound as organic as the PL. That of course, is just my subjective opinion. You may prefer the Sanders.
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tomcy6, I definitely will. I've been snowed in, in Oregon for the past five days and unable to get home to hook up the Sanders ESL, but I'm heading there today and will spend the weekend with it. It has lots of power, soit will be interesting to hear the difference.
maplegrovemusic, those KT150s are expensive! Not sure I would put another $800 into the PL, but KT120s might be possible. Any suggestions? Or is it better to replace the two gain tubes fIrst?
This hobby is awesome! |
smills, Would you give us a little more information about how the two amps compare on your Summit Xs? |
Glad to hear you like the Primaluna . Maybe now we can stop hearing how it is a mismatch with stats.. That would be nice . Getting into the kt150's will bring it up another level as well . |
As I said before these are the two areas the PL would have trouble with
"The hard load points are at:
At 5khz to 20khz (a 2 octave spread) may show as distant subdued high frequency.
(But the Prima Luna has an odd peak up there, that says to me output transformers are ringing (oscillating).
This "could" counter to a degree that problem, but in a very crude way.)
And again at 3.5khz this may soften the presence area of the mids"
Cheers George
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George, I hate to say it, but I'm really liking the PL HP integrated. But you have me concerned about what I may be missing due to the impedance of my speakers. I actually had a hearing test done recently and I can hear as slow as 133 HZ, and as high as 8400 Hz. I'm not sure I'm reading the charts you referenced above correctly, but it appears the PL will work fine for these frequencies. Am I reading this right?
Also, does the high power transformers of the PL help with this? Would moving up power tubes to KT-120 help?
Sure appreciate the advice!!! |
Do I have to have speakers attached if it's on?
Solid state amps can be powered without any load on them. But tube amps need to see a load, as there is the possibility without a load they can damage the output transformers if they go into oscillation. Cheers George |
The amp now has about 50 hours of break in and I have listened now for about 15 hours. I have to say, it's still amazing. I'm pretty new at this, but I'm not hearing what George is referring to. Not saying he is incorrect, just that I'm thoroughly enjoying this amp. Break in for this is about 100 hours, so it should be in it's prime Monday night.
I have the Sanders and my old Plinius action as preamp ready to power up mid-week. Question: should I plug in the Sanders to let it begin breaking in? Do I have to have speakers attached if it's on?
Steve |
"George and others, what should I listen for that will show me the limitations of tubes with my speakers? As I said above a tube amp that’s a good design, but doing it hard into this load of the Summits. The hard load is at: At 5khz to 20khz may show a distant subdued high frequency. And again at 3.5khz this may soften the presence area of the mids You may "characterize" this as sweet and euphonic at first listen. Then after a while, even a week or two you may understand that it’s not what it should be, and that "the life" is missing from the music, detail, attack, presence and harmonic decay are waning. Saying all this is with a tube amp that behaves itself in the top end. But the Prima Luna has an odd peak up there, that says to me output transformers are ringing (oscillating). This "could" counter to a degree the statements I make above but in a very crude way. https://www.stereophile.com/images/1214PLDPIfig01.jpg Cheers George |
"George and others, what should I listen for that will show me the limitations of tubes with my speakers? Is there specific music that will make this apparent to me? I want to make sure I grasp the effect of the impedance shortfall of tubes before I listen to the Sanders."
smills59-
It's great, having the experience/wisdom of SOME qualified members here, but trust your own ears. As mentioned earlier, white papers with graphs and specs certainly are necessary to establish a baseline "good," but it ain't gonna ensure what YOUR ears like.
Your favorite music will sound more convincing on one of the two.
Happy listening!
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