looking for best isolation platform for CD player

OK Joe, whattaya know? Set us free. I'm teachable.

Joe, how does it work and how much does it cost?

I hope this helps......... The white paper. I'm not sure if the tables will transmit properly. Let me know if you have any questions:

High performance custom-made isolation systems are available for your audio components. Custom-made isolation systems are calibrated to the weight and dimensions of your component and customized to your home or system décor.

The floor is where the battle begins! Speakers are powerful machines. At normal listening levels, the floor, walls and ceiling of a listening room vibrate from the amplitude of compression and rarefaction waves generated by speakers. Walls and ceilings are ultimately coupled to the floor and the floor shakes as your speakers do their work. And, the air is filled with the same energy! And we love it! Visceral room responses are basic to the pleasure of music. And we hate it! Room response degrades component performance. In fact, a vibrating room is a very harsh environment for audio components.

There have been increasing references to the virtues of 3hz natural frequency isolation systems appearing in reviews in Stereophile magazine. TAS recently featured a $3900 3hz component isolation system in its New Products section. Stereophile sites the legendary Rockport Sirius III and the new SME 30/2 turntables as benchmarks for attaining the 3hz objective. Reviewers extol the sonic benefits of 3hz isolation devices, but unfortunately most are very expensive.

With guidance from Engineers, 3 different isolation systems adaptable to a broad range of components were developed for audiophile use. These isolation systems have a natural frequency of 10hz, 5hz, and sub-3hz. A patent filing is in preparation.

If you’re like me, the first question you’d ask is “What’s so special about a natural frequency of 10hz or 5hz or sub-3hz? My system only goes down to Xhz and no one can hear that low anyway. What does this do for me? And by the way, I already have a stand and enough shelves and pucks and bearings and pads and rounds and half rounds to stop an earthquake.”

Let’s define terms in a way that is easier to communicate concepts. Isolate a component means to neutralize the degrading effects of vibrations that flow from the floor into the component. Damp a component means to neutralize the degrading effects of air-born vibrations and other internal vibrations by transferring vibration from the component into the isolation stand. Natural Frequency is any frequency at which a system actually amplifies the amount of vibration coming into it. Another expression for natural frequency is resonant frequency. All objects have a resonant frequency or set of frequencies at which they vibrate. When vibration is introduced into an object at its resonant frequency, the result is a larger vibration. Regardless of the vibrating system, if resonance occurs, a larger vibration results. So when vibration in the floor or the air reaches the resonant frequency of a shelf, puck, stand, bearing, pad, round or half round the vibration is amplified in intensity and transferred into the component. When vibration in the floor or the air reaches the resonant frequency of a component, its chassis or any of its parts, the same effect occurs. So, in a sense, audio components play into the room and then the room plays back into the audio components. System set-up is more than location and stacking components on a rack.

Vibration causes errors in the time domain that translate into smearing, bloat, loss of ambient room information, harshness, edge and a very audible loss of musicality. The difference between a component that is isolated and the same component not isolated can be breathtaking in a well-executed audio system.

What does a well-executed isolation system do for me? A well-executed isolation system does one thing and only one thing. It allows the component to perform at its optimal level by neutralizing the degrading affects of vibration. Audio components have a distinctive DNA engineered into them. The DNA is what we love and the DNA must remain pristine. A well-executed isolation system allows the component’s natural DNA to come through. It is neither additive nor subtractive. It allows the component to perform at its optimal level by neutralizing the degrading affects of vibration. Properly isolated, the harsh stress of vibration is removed from the component, but left in the floor, ceiling, walls and air for you to enjoy!

A reference to Xhz of isolation refers to the system’s natural frequency. The natural frequency of the isolation system determines the amount of floor-born ENERGY that gets eliminated from contact with the component being isolated. If your floor is shaking from a 30hertz tone, a well-executed 10hz isolation system (natural frequency of 10hz) will remove about 75% of the vibration before it gets to the component! A well-executed 5hz system (natural frequency of 5hz) will remove about 94% of the vibration before it gets to the component! A well-executed 3hz system (natural frequency of 3hz) will remove about 97% of the vibration before it gets to the component! These differences are audible, but dependent upon the low frequency extension of the system as you will see.

The percentages you just read describe the transmissibility of the isolation system. Transmissibility is defined as the ratio of the response amplitude (strength of the energy) transmitted through the system into the component, to the excitation amplitude (strength of the energy) in the floor. Lowering the natural frequency of the isolation system lowers the transmissibility of the isolation system and therefore lowers the amount of floor-born vibration reaching the component.

Which natural frequency is low enough? That’s a great question and the answer depends on the systems’ ability to isolate and damp the component. We are programmed to believe that audio requires the best of everything. The best OFC wire, the best capacitors, the best resistors, the best AC outlets, the best room treatment. Much of the time this is true, but in isolation it is not true. Thankfully, electron microscopes and other sensitive scientific and medical equipment require incredibly expensive isolation systems more so than audio components. Sensitive scientific and medical equipment can be affected by the earth’s rotation, road traffic and building movements caused by high wind. Fortunately for audiophiles, our life only gets exciting at 20hz because this is just about the lowest hertz level at which our equipment can shake the floor and the air. The table below shows the attenuation of vibration at various frequencies. Notice how the transmissibility of vibration rises and falls around the natural frequency of a 40hz, 30hz and 25hz system. Notice also that if your speakers go down to 40hz, an isolation system with a natural frequency of 10hz is very effective.

Below is a table* that gives the approximate ratio (expressed as percentages) of the response amplitude (intensity of the energy) transmitted from the isolation system into the component, to the excitation amplitude (intensity of the energy) in the floor for isolation systems of various natural frequencies.

---------------------Lowest Hertz Level of Your System----------------------
20hz 25hz 30hz 35hz 40hz 45hz 50hz 100hz
Natural Frequency
40hz 135% 156% 176% 208% 225% 207% 183% 42%
30hz 160% 193% 207% 183% 140% 105% 87% 24%
25hz 174% 200% 190% 139% 102% 77% 64% 19%
10hz 54% 33% 25% 18% 14% 12% 10% 4%
5hz 12% 8% 6% 5% 4% 3% 2.5% .09%
3hz 5% 3% 2.5% 2% 1.5% 1.2% 1.1% .04%
-----------------------------------% Transmission-----------------------------------
*Isolation system designs differ. The percentages above are approximate values and may not apply to all systems.

You can see that an isolation system with a natural frequency of 40hz, 30hz or 25hz actually amplifies floor born vibrations and passes it to the component as frequencies in the floor approach the natural frequency of the system. This is a good example of why isolation systems with low natural frequencies are a must.

How does damping work and why is it important? When we talk about damping we turn our attention from vibration in the floor to vibration in the air striking the component and vibration inherent to the component. A well-executed isolation system should have a high damping coefficient. High damping coefficient means vibrations in the air striking the component get absorbed downward into the isolation system rather than absorbed into the component. It is important to understand that the top plate of the isolation system receives the damping treatment. The component rests on a surface with a high damping coefficient designed to drain vibration from the component like a drain empties a sink. The highly damped top plate of the isolation system draws vibration energy from the component because it is vibrating much less than the component. When a vibrating component is coupled to a mass that isn’t vibrating, energy transfers into the non-vibrating mass to equilibrium. In a well-executed isolation system, equilibrium is never achieved, as the top plate drains vibration faster than the component can provide vibration.

Some systems can isolate but not damp and the vibration in the component remains trapped in the component. A system can rightly purport to have a low natural frequency, but provide only a small sonic improvement because of poor damping qualities. Together, well-executed isolation and damping allows the component to perform at its optimal level.

There is, however, one part of an isolation system where a low damping coefficient is preferable. Low damping coefficient means that a portion of vibrations is turned back in the direction of the floor. This part is the feet of the stand, which are made of grade 5 Titanium. Grade 5 Titanium is RF and EM impervious, and possesses high elasticity and a low damping coefficient. Grade 5 Titanium is used in military and aerospace applications.

Can I use a combination of shelf, cones, pucks, points, rounds and/or half-rounds to eliminate vibration? This approach to isolation and damping rests upon the premise that you can reach sonic Nirvana through a multiplicity of compounding errors. Most audiophiles, given the choice, would not select this approach when modifying or upgrading audio components. With isolation systems, however, we have not previously been given the choice.

The answer is no. This approach, however, is well worth addressing as it embodies the cornerstone of many isolation and damping device providers. The vast majority of isolation systems, shelves, pucks, cones, points, rounds and half-rounds on the market today, like the vast majority of audio components on the market today, are built to fit a price point. Performance is sacrificed for aesthetics, cost and the ease of mass production. In the absence of a solution, band-aid approaches with conjectural theories are prone to fill the void. Unfortunately, audio has been inculcated with non-solutions for such a long period of time that conjecture has become accepted as “fact” or “the best thinking possible today”.

Many band-aid solutions on the market today have a natural frequency that will amplify vibration in your components at one or more frequencies. Moreover, most sellers of band-aid solutions have no idea of the natural frequency(s) of the products they are selling. One of the reasons is that the natural frequency of the products they sell is dependent upon the mass of the component placed upon them.

Isolation systems work best when they are customized. In fact, an isolation system MUST be calibrated to the weight and dimensions of the component to function at its optimal level. Failure to calibrate the system to the component’s weight and dimensions diminishes the effectiveness of the system by raising the natural frequency and allowing more vibration to pass to the component, or by over-loading the system and causing damage. The result is the component will not function at its optimal level of performance. Imagine investing in a parachute that doesn’t fully open. Imagine investing in a car with 3 wheels. Imagine investing in a house without windows. In each example, the product is less effective than a product operating at its optimal level of performance. Isolation is weight specific and this detail is omitted from most audio discourse.

Below is a table* that compares the approximate ratio (expressed as percentages) of the response amplitude of two isolation systems with a natural frequency of 10 hertz. The isolation system on the top line is fully calibrated to the weight of a 64lb component. The isolation system on the second line is calibrated to a component 20lbs heavier.

---------------------Lowest Hertz Level of Your System----------------------
% Transmission 20hz 25hz 30hz 35hz 40hz 45hz 50hz 100hz
10hz (Calibrated) 54% 33% 25% 18% 14% 12% 10% 4%
10h (Not Calibrated) 84% 49% 37% 26% 20% 16% 14% 5%
Diff + / (-) -30% -16% -12% -8% -6% -4% -4% -1%
*Isolation system designs differ. The percentages above are approximate values and may not apply to all systems.

The chart shows that calibration is very important. The performance of an isolation system constructed without concern for natural frequency is unpredictable and may be much worse than no system at all! Material, stands or systems with high natural frequencies can actually amplify the energy in the floor at multiple frequencies and pass it directly into the component. For example, a component isolation shelf made of wooden No.2 pencils will tend to amplify vibrations at 197hz, 211hz, 217hz, 219hz, 287hz, 311hz, 329hz, 399hz, 407hz etc. Not very good for audio!

You will notice that the above charts stop at 100hz. The reason is that the battle for isolation is fought at low frequencies. A well-executed isolation system that stops low frequencies from passing to the component stops high frequencies even better. Every frequency in the floor can be expressed as a ratio to the system’s natural frequency. A well-executed isolation system with a natural frequency of 10hz has a frequency ratio of about 2.93 to a 30hertz frequency in the floor. The same isolation system has a frequency ratio of about 9.78 to a 100hertz frequency in the floor. The higher the isolation system’s frequency ratio to the frequencies in the floor, the better the isolation and as you have seen, the frequency ratio increases as the frequencies in the floor go up.

But beware! Every frequency in the air can be expressed as a ratio to the natural frequency of the top plate material upon which the component is resting. The damping coefficient of the top plate material determines if air-born vibration is trapped in the component, or drained from it. In a well-executed isolation system, the top plate of the isolation system draws vibration energy from the component because it is vibrating much less than the component over a very broad frequency spectrum. When a vibrating component is coupled to a non-reflective mass that isn’t vibrating, energy transfers into the non-vibrating mass to equilibrium. In a well-executed isolation system, equilibrium is never achieved, as the top plate drains vibration faster than the component can provide vibration.

Tailoring the size of the isolation system to the component is important for damping and it saves space and it makes the isolation system more pleasing to the eye. Exposed surfaces receive and transmit vibration. Isolation systems that are tailored to the dimensions of the component have less exposed surface area on the top plate to absorb air born vibration. This helps keep the top plate of the isolation system “quiet” and allows it to absorb vibration from the component.

Who should be interested in custom isolation systems? Any audiophile who is fairly settled in on the components that they wish to keep in their system should consider a custom isolation system.

Which components should I isolate? It makes good sense to start with the source component. But, it is be a startling revelation to hear the extent to which amplifiers, preamps, phonostages and power supplies benefit from isolation and damping. Well-executed isolation and damping systems allow each component to perform at its optimal level by neutralizing the degrading affects of vibration.

If you would like to hear what isolation systems do in your audio system a demo can be arranged.

How does it work:

The principles outlined in the white paper are strictly adhered to. I hope it's acceptable for me to say that the workings are proprietary.

How much does it cost:

I'm concerned that answering that would turn a discussion into a sales pitch. But I will answer the question as posed. So if an answer to the question would offend a reader stop now..........

What I do isn't for everybody. If you like to swap out equipment, I'm not your guy. I do custom applications.

Having said that, if it's a piece of equipment that really pleases you and we both agree that what I do is what you want, $850. That's the price for my best work, custom-made for your equipment. Lesser performance costs less. I do all my work with Oak, Walnut and Maple frames. You pick the color stain. The walnut can be "ebonized" into high-gloss black. No metals.

I'm not a mass-producer. I work one-on-one with audiophiles and that takes time and good communication.

Let's agree not to talk about prices further out of respect for the thread.

Thanks

Joe

Let's see... the guy who started the thread owns the Sistrum, the guy who sells them, tells everyone how dumb they are, then the guy who makes them gives a six page explanation of the workings, then the price, and then says, out of respect for the thread, "I won't sell."
This is, of course a smaller audience than the Super Bowl, but a more select, and captive one, and I am certain the pricefor this advertising is sure better.
I mentioned in an earlier thread that I would give, repeat give, which I thought the intent of these threads were, that is to exchange information, to anyone who wanted to try and build one, the recipe for how to build a mass based platform. Let's at least not insult everyone with such unabashed selling. Does anyone here doubt that this was not completely set up??
I really thought that the Audiogon Staff was supposed to edit out any obvious selling attempts on these sites. I am disappointed. Even if it works better than anything else, this duplicity makes me suspicious. Now Tom...tell us you don't sell these. Tell us that publicly.
Lrsky

Joe Lavrenick is not part of Sistrum . To my knowledge he has no dealer base and only posted here because some folks including myself asked him to do so.

Brad

Larry the guy who started the thread is Who?..the guy with a 6 page white paper is Joe and he has a totally different product.. not Sistrum..And Larry you have a great ear but I would not have you to my house and you know the multitude of reasons why! Shall we speak of people across the Ohio river here? If you were invited to my home and you were to listen to Sistrum products then you too would call Robert and buy one... What is your association with Albert the speaker guy? Some times controversial and negative press stirs up sales..A sales master like yourself certainly knows that angle..The one and only reality of my being on this thread is to say again.. there is know such thing as isolation and dampening is a storage device. And I think the current marketed devices that propose such are a waste of time and money. Maybe only one man's opinion, but it is, all of me.. Tom

I was wrong, wrong, wrong. Sorry. I admit it!!
Lrsky

amen. Let's put his baby to sleep. peace, warren

I found the Stereophile article on vibrations:
Bad Vibes
Lrsky - where's that post delete when you need it =:0

I absolutely have nothing to do with Sistrum and have never heard of it before today.

I posted the white paper because I thought it would help.

There is nothing more to it than that.

Joe

Theaudiotweek, I really don't care if you are %$#@ed at me! I am very frustrated with your appearant lack of understanding with a product you condemn. You offer nothing to the discussion by putting down this product.

Like whatever you want to like! I'm glad you like coupling things. That doesn't make it right, or even best. Don't confuse your opinions with facts!!!

I'm trying to learn and help others to do the same, you want to slam the lid on the discussion of anything you don't approve of, or own yourself. What is the benefit to that???

I want to learn more about Joe's product. I have heard it (or should I sat the benefits of it) at CAS and found it to be incredible. I'm not selling it! I'm a potential customer.

You're right tom, I know nothing about you. We have something in common since you know nothing about "Isolation Systems" my isn't this cozy!

I received a very cordial email from Joe, who I mistook for someone else. I gave him my thoughts on The Platform, a homemade thing, I personally designed, for hobbyiests. He is a brilliant guy, and was pleasant,in spite of my apparent lack of attention paid to who the thread was from and about.
His graciousness put me to shame, a lesson well learned by such a know it all like myself.
I only know that this, my home brew thing works when used properly. Do other things work better. Maybe, probably, none of us who haven't tried them all could possibly know. I am not a physisist, but the idea behind it is basically solid, no pun intended. But hey, who thought mold on bread would cure syphillis?
Now I will spend the rest of the afternoon removing my foot from my mouth. With my bad back, that really hurts!!!HA!
Lrsky

I told Joe he could bring his rack on down so we could do a shootout..Isolation/dampening vs Direct Coupling/Resonance Transfer.. I have a private guest suite. You are welcome...Tom

I would say this, anything that Tom is this excited about, must be good. He is a golden ear from way back. Not the most subtle guy, heh heh, but fabulous ears, and a great listener.
There I said it, and its true.
Hey nrchy, you and Tom kiss and make up, no matter who started it,. Life's too short. This is AUDIO, our favorite thing, and supposed to be fun. We are lucky to have audio, instead of food, to worry about.
IMHO.
Larry

Larry, you're right about that. There are a lot of people who have real problems to worry about, this is just supposed to be an interesting diversion.

Tom, you may be right about everything you said, I'm just not sure yet.

What is going on here (Larry/Nrchy)? Tom has been a one note positive poster in regard to his:

favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorie/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite/favorite... gear holding gear from day one.

Jeez, amazed that it took you this long to be amazed.

Yea, I'm punctual and consistently persistent. Here's a for instance... We forgot to ask Proy if he has received his Sistrum Sp1 yet and how he likes it..Maybe his description will incite another RIOT!! As that man Warren always signs , Peace Tom..

I'm an analog guy, so I can't say from experience what will be best under your particular CD player.

However, I can say from experience that the best things I've heard under any other piece of audio gear are the Sistrum platforms and Audiopoints.

I'm also a firm believer in coupling and not isolation. I have been so for many years, and only recently(about a year ago) found out how good the Sistrum stuff is at achieving what I wanted to achieve.

I'm not going to fan any flames about what can and cannot work, but I will repeat that I am firmly in the "coupling" camp. I use the Sistrum stuff from one end of my system to the other. It is doing what I want it to do. As most of you know, I am very hard-core, and if it didn't work extremely well, it wouldn't be in my system.

Many times it is hard to break from a trend that has been generally accepted for years. Sometimes "doing a 180" from what you have been trying for years can pay off. This is one of those times.

A good question to ask yourselves is, "If isolation is so important, then how can this form of direct coupling with zero isolation provide such good results?" Perhaps you may conclude that there are 2 ways to control vibration in the system. In any matter of choice, there is always a winner. Do not discount the idea that this well-engineered application of direct coupling could be the winner. In my application it clearly was the winner, and I suspect it would be in many other applications also.

IMO.

Peace.

I saw my name mentioned in the thread again and thought I would add a few remarks on 2 subjects:

1) I fully support the advancement of audio and support the comparison of components as a means of advancement. Tom invited me to Louisville to compare my stand to the Sistrum. This is a wonderful opportunity to learn. My stands are calibrated to the components that rest upon them. The Sistrum is not calibrated to the component. I suggested Tom bring a stand to Chicago. This may not be practical for Tom and if we are unable to compare stands, it is no reflection on the products or us. This brings me to my second point,
2) Well-executed isolation systems have existed in audio for years. Unfortunately, they have been held captive inside stratospherically priced components. Some of the vibration reduction solutions marketed at various price points shouldn't claim to isolate. Such claims cause discontent and disappointment. You can see this in the emotions in the thread. Recently, things changed. The white paper I offered is accurate. The solution is executable.

Thanks for your consideration.

Keep the faith

Joe

As I mentioned in an earlier post, if Tom likes it its a great product. That said, Joe, who was, after my silliness as to who posted what, contacted me graciously. He listened to my description of energy transference and said it had merit. I am not saying its the best, but I do know it can work under properly used conditions. With 70# of suspended mass, and energy flow into this mass, assuming the transfer takes place with proper and (appropriate) mechanical impedences it can help. I am sure, like amps and preamps there are many good answers. I am pleased that this thread is so positive now, with all of us agreeing that many things work to varying degrees. I would like to hear Joe's and Tom's, and vice versa. Mine is, as I said a homemade, though difficult project,cheaper, but agreeing with Joe in his mention of the phrase stratopheric pricing. That's the shame of this.
Hey Tom, can you give us some idea of how much, and where to go to see pictures of the products you're talking about? Joe, same here, how do we see more?
My (and I think our collective) goal is better sound however we do it.
Tom, does your product work on all pieces, cd, turntable, preamps, etc, or does it have a particular strength, where its better? Joe, same question.
Mine while probably not as sophistocated,(or maybe expensive either)usually works on everything to a degree, with lead acting as RFI inhibitor, as a bonus, and energy transfer. It would be great to get several together to check this all out. The Grail is pretty elusive, at least to me! You guys have me interested. I for one do not find the old tip toes or similar items to help that much on anything but turntables. Sorry just IMHO! So don't get mad.
Good Listening,
Larry

Joe, you might want to speak with Dennis Gulino who also is a member of the Chicago Audio Society and who has a Sistrum rack. For what it's worth, Robert Maicks of Audio Machine & Design (makers of Sistrum and Audiopoints products) visited the club quite a few months ago and talked about and demonstrated some of the products. A different approach and a different set of objectives, from what I can tell.

Brian

Larry go to Audiopoints.com All their products are a continuim..I feel all of them, that I use are based on the same for me common logic..resonant energy transfer. Yes the platforms and racks work across the board with every kind of device cd dvd pre--power --speakers and even pig screen tv; Gee they to are all a continuim of resonance. Get that shit out of Dodge..When it leaves and has a place to go the end result is much better sound and video..So here I go again touting the shit I use and I feel is the best and the only sensible way to get There..Leaving myself open again but I am not going to change unless Joe or some other good natured fellow can show me different... Until then I will enjoy the direct coupled effect..Yea Baby.....Tom

Tom/Theaudiotweak:

Do you, in any way, have financial ties/interests with the Sistrum products?

A simple yes/no would be great/super.

Thanks,

DeKay

I feel much the same way Tom does. I like what I have and I'm not going to change until I hear something better. I have a Berning ZH270 amp. It is a wonderful tube amp but only weighs 10 pounds. The platform that Larry designed has improved the already spectacular sound of the Berning. If you have a Berning, make this platform--buy it or steal it or something!!! It makes a huuuuuuge difference.

As a salesman at a retail store sometime back I use to be criticized by upper management for not using in my home system, products that were sold at our retail stores..If in my mind I thought a product sounded better at a price point that I could afford then that was the piece I would buy, not the one I was pushed to buy.

My financial obligation is to myself and to my family not to Sistrum or any other manufacturer. I have purchased alot of Starsound products all for me and all for use in my system..These products are at odds with the current accepted theories of isolation. Thats great! So I'am a now a free radical, just as I was 32 years ago. Maybe at odds with the norm but not with my beliefs. Tom

Brian,

I'll contact Dennis. Sounds promising.

Thanks

Joe

Good to read that you take care of your family (finacial obligations/liabilities), but that was not the question.

Slightly off the subject, but just as important in many ways for sonic purity in audio systems.
Has anybody out there tried the Quantum QRT product, or products?
I just spoke to them, and it sounds to me as if they are working on the level of a Pentium 8 while others are working on the level of 286's.(Simplistic computer analogy)
Literally, if what they claim is true, in a different league, and another evolution. I have asked a couple of designers who claim this might be the next evolution in line purification. I am familiar with the Hydra, and the Richard Gray Power company, plus Furman, but this is compelling.
Building a new house, and this would change some plans regarding line treatment.
Any feedback would be welcome.
Thanks
Lrsky

I have used the maplewood platform for all my audio equipments since I have tried a few platforms but nothing can come closer to the sound, which has more smooth lively musical and detail like Maplewood. If you can afford you also can get Shun-Mook products for vibration control.

Vibration isolation is not a problem unique to audio. At work we use a 8-inch dish of mercury as a reflective surface for optical measurements of true horizontal. (The mercury surface is a perfect level reference). However, the slightest vibration causes ripples on the mercury which makes the optical measurements difficult. Even with the mercury dish on a 3000 pound granite slab on a pier sunk 60 feet into the ground we had ripples.

Our problem was solved by an active (electronic) vibration isolation table, similar to one that you can check out at:
www.optima-research.com/Herz/active.htm.
If I recall correctly it cost us about $3000. I can't see needing this for a CD player, but it could be good for a LP turntable. Be the first on your block to have one!

"I can't see needing this for a CD player..."

Actually, CD players respond very positively to vibration isolation, the better the isolator the better the results. One reason for this might be the small coil spring assembly that supports the laser itself. This laser assembly has a resonant frequency of approx. 8 Hz. Structural vibration capable of causing a tonearm or cartridge to resonate will also cause the laser assembly to resonate...

Geoffkait...How then do CD players work so well in automobiles, and even in portable players while joging?

Error correction is one reason car and portable cd players work so well in poor environment.. I have implemented many ways that make for less error correction and therefore better sound..Tom

The more robust players such as those for jogging feature data buffers, so if there's a momentary loss of data due to shock, it is transparent to the user. So this is not error correction per se but data buffering.

Geoff I have an older Denon player in my collection that also had a data buffer. Adjusting the laser focus offset and focus for the eye pattern, all way before the error correction, improved the sound with each little turn. I have a propretary device I use that will reduce laser scatter and decrease error correction as well as four other benefits..Tom

makes sense; the laser reading process seems critical to final outcome. The off the shelf player does OK but not anywhere near perfect.

Theaudiotweek...Please explain how error correction has any adverse effect on sound. An error CORRECTION code enables recovery of the original data, as if no error had occured. This is true up to the point where the error rate exceeds the correction capability inherent in the degree of redundancy in the code, after which the system may resort to interpolation of corrupted data, and that might be audible.

As I have mentioned before, believe it or not, the purpose of error correction is not to correct errors. It is to enable the data transfer bandwidth to be increased by running the hardware so fast that some (correctable) errors are expected to occur. You give up some bandwidth to data redundancy, but you more than get it back by running faster.

After 32 years of selling audio and video products I left my long standing job with one of the Mid-West's premier mid to hi-end dealers. My last day there was Friday. My experience dates back to the late stages of the tube classic era of Mcintosh, Marantz and Citation. I was there with the introduction of the new classics from Audio Research, Mark Levinson, Krell, Linn Sondek, Dalquist. I sold the first consumer VHS players from JVC. The father of current surround sound was CD-4 and SQ from Pioneer and Marantz. Had the pleasure of meeting with Peter Snell, Jon Dalquist and Matthew Polk in the comforts of my own home. These were the years Hi-fi was the most exciting and fun..Was it a just a younger man's outlook that made it so exciting. Was it part of the aging process that made the experience become more of a pain than a pleasure.. Some but not all..How about Mega stores The Inter-Net open Sundays till 5pm..You sold it me but I bought it somewhere else for 10 dollars less, but can you show me how to hook it up, the place I purchased it from didn't have a clue. Time for me to take care of myself for a change....So at this late date I have struck out on my own with an equal partner..We will be designing building and installing complete home entertainment packages.. My first love will remain two-channel. When I can make two-channel sound as if it has no boundaries or limits then I know I am there. I will continue my relationships with manufacturers whom I know and who know me. Some of these vendors will be unable to set me up as a dealer at this time..There are numerous reasons why. Let me state, as always I have never, and will never try to sell on Audiogon any equipment that I may represent as a dealer.. My home system is my Frankenstein creation, it is a UFO of some repute..The devices I use, many of my own creation, and others, that I may get on my soapbox to preach about are whats keeping my interest in hi-fi alive. The fact that I can show an audio novice something so simple as the marked improvement provided by an Audiopoint makes me smile loudly. Room angles and boundary geometry are so important, what a difference all these passive mechanical devices do make..So fellow Goners shall I be a real Goner now that I have announced that I hope to some day, be a dealer of great repute? Tom

Tom: First of all, i'm glad that i'm not alone in trying to avoid as much error correction as possible. I'm not saying that we shouldn't have it, i'm saying that we shouldn't need it if everything is working optimally. At least we agree on something : )

Other than that, i see no reason to "disappear" from these or any other audio based forums so long as you make your affiliations known. If you recommend a product that you are affiliated with, make it known in that same post. I see nothing wrong with someone sharing their opinions / experiences with various products so long as they make their business affiliations known up front. There are several dealers that do this ( Duke from Audiokinesis comes to mind ) and their input is always very helpful. Why cut yourself off from something that you enjoy and can be helpful with just because you do something similar for a living ? Sean
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Tom, I agree with Sean. Hang with us in this audiophoolish "gon" world. Your honesty, pen and tongue are always welcome. You're a true power. You stand by what you believe in based on your tympanics. That's the real deal. Where everyone else goes with that doesn't matter. peace, warren

Sean...Can you explain it? "Working optimally" (your words) means that error-free data transfer is happening at the greatest possible bandwidth. In practice this means that correctable errors are occuring. Reducing the error rate can't hurt, but unless the unreduced rate is more than the encoding is designed to handle, it will have no effect on the final result.

Thank you Sean. Error correction seems to be some sort of low level pollution the less the player has to correct for the more clarity and ease of sound.Tom

The particular vibration isolation table that I have used is a Halcyonics unit similar to their current model Mod-1M. Check it out on their web site: www.halcyonics.com.

Although I remain skeptical about the necessity to isolate CD players, I can tell you that this vibration isolation table does a superb job.

Thank you Warren for your kind words..Tom

Proy, you have probably made your decision by now, but if not, I recommend Geoff Kait's Machina Dynamica Promethean Base. I have been using one for a week now under my digital components and the results are truly excellent. I have my amps on these as well, again with great results. I suspect every component I value will end up on one of these and that this will be the end of any and all isolation concerns forever. The benefit is in no way subtle.