looking for best isolation platform for CD player


Looking for best isolation platform for High End CDP , Linn / Audio Aero Capital/ Ensemble new cdp out next few weeks / not sure yet what I'm getting. Using XA7ES right now.

I have a stand now ( Atlantis ) and looking at audio points /silent feet, not quite sure if these are the right ideal or is there a perfect platform specialy for CDP .

Note: just bought Sistrum SP1 for my amp should be here next week.
proy

Showing 7 responses by sean

The system that Nrchy is refering to was devised by Joe Lavrencik, a member of the Chicago Audio Society. I'll try and contact Joe and see if he can contribute to this thread and / or at least provide a way for the public to contact him. As far as i know, he does not have a website set up as of yet but is working on it.

Joe does have a set of papers that he's put together that demonstrates the effectiveness of these devices using vibration of the component itself as a point of reference. These tests were conducted and measured at various frequencies to show just how well they do at dealing with different types of resonance transmission. Obviously, the more that the device is "vibrating" or "oscillating", whether it be from floor-borne or air-borne excitation, the less effective the device is. Sean
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No such thing as isolation ? There is no such thing as "complete draining of energy through increased coupling" either. There are obviously varying degrees of both isolation and coupling. To deny that neither works nor exists is not very realistic. Sean
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I sold the Michael Green Deluxe Just-A-Rack two years ago after running it for a couple of months. To my ears, it did horrible things to the sound of the system that i had it in. I would have never believed that a rack could have that much of a "sonic impact" on a system if i had not heard it with my own ears. The person that purchased it from me was quite happy with it and in fact, bought another one not that long after purchasing that one from me. He is a respected member of the Agon community and has gone through more than his fare share of high quality gear. I guess that different people hear and like different things. Then again, due to the racks design, it's quite possible that he was running it in a different manner than i was and getting different results.

As far as the racks i'm using now, they are kind of a customized hodge-podge of what i wanted as an individual and parts that i could find to work with that were already on the market. As such, i'll try to give you a brief description.

The uprights are solid metal of low to medium mass and are directly spiked to the floor. The frame for each shelf is rigidly coupled to the uprights and are of a relatively lightweight welded tubular design. The shelves themselves are all free-floating on upturned spikes and are comprised of a low mass material.

I've played around with a few different materials in terms of the shelves, but have yet to find what i'm really looking for. There is one material that interests me, but i can't find a local source for it. I'd like to try some of Ken's Neuance shelves, but the price for the quantity that i need would just about bankrupt me. This is not to say that his prices are high for what you get, but that i need a LOT of them.

Does that help any ? Sean
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Tom aka Audiotweak: I'm holding my breath until you respond with your thoughts and comments. Please hurry up as it has already been over 24 hours and i'm well past turning blue in the face. My guess is that you didn't get the answer that you wanted or expected. None the less, i'm still waiting : )

Nrchy: I'm with you. When it comes to this kind of "undocumented" stuff, i'll give something a try before passing any form of judgment. I've learned the hard way too many times before and as such, have learned to "try" and keep an open mind. Then again, if your mind is completely open, your brain falls out when you bend over. As such, it is best to be open to new ideas but conservative enough not to lose your mind over them : ) Sean
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Tom: There are many different approaches to damping / isolation / energy transfer. When one concentrates on a specific approach, all of the benefits can be achieved. At the same time, there is nothing left to counter the drawbacks that any "less than perfect" approach brings along with it. Since not all energy can be transferred or absorbed at 100% efficiency, either method will leave you with some drawbacks. By using a combination approach, one can minimize drawbacks of any single approach and gain the benefits of each IF properly implimented.

As a side note, what happens to the energy that isn't transferred from the component to the shelf or from the shelf to the rack or from the rack to the floor when working with coupling ? I have yet to see a design that can honestly claim 100% energy transfer at any / all points of contact. Since there IS residual energy left behind and / or possibly stored due to lack of transference and / or passed back into the component, why would "coupling" be any better than any other "half-fast" approach ? Given the sentiments and attitudes that you expressed above, it would appear that we should chuck such a system out the window. Right ?

The key here is to transfer as much self produced or air-borne energy away from the device as possible, minimize energy transfer from the support structure back into the component and dissipate any residual energy that could not be transferred in an efficient manner. In order to do that, you'll have to incorporate some type of "damping" or self-absorbing" device somewhere in there. If the "damping device" is properly designed, it will "eat up" the residual energy by being as "lossy" as possible. Since energy can be consumed via thermal losses, mechanical vibrations that are converted to thermal losses are not subject to the "rebound effect" that most "damping devices" produce.

The trick here is how to impliment all of this technology with one simple to use structure. Since the meeting point between the support structure and the component is typically some type of shelf or platform, that is where the majority of "work" must be done. The shelf must be rigid enough to transfer energy away from the component and support it, but at the same time, it needs to be able to "eat up" any residual energy that is not transfered and "damp" vibrations that try to come up through the support structure itself. Obviously, the material used for the shelf and how the shelf mates to the support structure and component are where most of us are "tweaking". I hope that this explanation somewhat explains why that is to those that aren't familiar with the "science" ( or is it "art" ??? ) of "tweaking".

Other than that, one can minimize the "rebound effect" of a damping device if the damping device is quite large in size and / or phenomenally "lossy". The effect of dropping a rock into a fish tank can be seen as ripples and the associated repurcussions that travel throughout the entire tank and then back towards the point of origin. Taking that a step further, one can increase the "vibration making device" to the size of a boulder and drop it into the ocean. In effect, the same thing takes place, but since there is so much more area to absorb the shock or "energy" of the boulder drop, it is barely noticed except for the surrounding area. Since the energy has been consumed ( efficiently damped ) before it can rebound, the side effects of "damping" have been minimized due to the lack of rebounding repurcussions. The drawback to this type of approach ? BIG size and a lot of weight.

As such Tom, you never thought "BIG enough" when thinking about damping and isolation. You answered your own question when you said "can the rack you are speaking of, isolate equipment from airborne as well as self induced electro-mechanical noise and vibration? If the answer is yes then how does this rack dissipate said captured energy? If it is sitting on a absorbent surface can this resting surface capture and disapate said vibrations as quick as it is refilled? If this rack captures quickly and cannot disapate as fast then you have a new storage medium!!!". By making the devices BIG, there is enough surface area to dissipate pretty much whatever you throw at it, so there is no storage or "rebound" effect. The energy is "consumed" via calculated thermal losses in the damping / isolation base. According to Joe's literature, he had help from several different engineers on this project.

For those that are interested, these "damping & isolation" shelves / platforms are 50+ lbs apiece ( from what i can tell by picking one up ). On top of that, each shelf / platform is specifically "fine tuned" for the actual device that you will be placing on it. While i can't even begin to fathom a guess at what a multi-component rack would weigh ( or cost ), according to Joe's test results published in his literature, a 3 Hz system shows a reduction of vibrational resonance in the component by 97% when "bombarded" with a 25 Hz signal !!! He provides a chart as a "rough estimate" of what to expect out of the various isolation devices that he offers when confronted with various frequencies.

Needless to say, i was impressed with the system that i saw but i still think that there might be a few tricks that can take it a step further. Sean
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PS... I have NO affiliation with these devices or the individual(s) making them. I met Joe and talked to him for the first time at the CAS meeting that he displayed these at. I'm working on contacting him. Hopefully, i'll be able to catch him on Friday and see if he can post information here.
What i find interesting is that Tom and Warren seem adamant in their support for their beliefs. Nothing wrong with that and i agree that products and companies that are well designed and have been a pleasure to work with deserve support and recognition. I do think that there is a problem in that both of these folks ( Tom moreso than Warren ) tend to disregard other approaches, even if they know nothing about them. They do this even though some of those other approaches ARE taking measurements and have verifiable proof that their design works AND works quite efficiently.

As a side note, a device that reduces measured vibration does so on a whole, not just on the initial point of excitation. This means that both initial excitation and ringing are reduced on a well designed product. As such, a device that suffers from "stored energy" may reduce the initial amplitude of resonance but it does so by spreading the energy out over a wider period of time / phase. This is not an improvement so much as it is a lateral or even possibly backwards move. The end result would be dulled transients ( lack of dynamic impact ) and a reduction in overall clarity and definition (due to un-natural decay characteristics as a result of massive ringing ). This is exactly what i experienced with the MGD Deluxe Just-A-Rack.

With the above in mind, i think that most "damping" or "isolation" devices on the market fall into the category that Tom and Warren are "complaining" about. Not only are most of them under-designed on the whole, they are not optimized for any specific component or situation. Given that Joe's approach seems to be relatively well thought out AND optimized for each component that it is used with, it seems only natural to achieve better results with it than with mass produced "generic" devices trying to achieve similar results. I don't think that anyone here doubts that a "one size fits all" type of device will typically be "slaughtered" by a custom built piece that is quite specific to the situation at hand.

Other than that, i have to admit that i have not personally used these devices and have no first hand experience with them. I am basing my thoughts on science being applied to the art of resonance control. Sean
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PS... I just picked up an accelerometer today and hope to do some testing in the near future.
Tom: First of all, i'm glad that i'm not alone in trying to avoid as much error correction as possible. I'm not saying that we shouldn't have it, i'm saying that we shouldn't need it if everything is working optimally. At least we agree on something : )

Other than that, i see no reason to "disappear" from these or any other audio based forums so long as you make your affiliations known. If you recommend a product that you are affiliated with, make it known in that same post. I see nothing wrong with someone sharing their opinions / experiences with various products so long as they make their business affiliations known up front. There are several dealers that do this ( Duke from Audiokinesis comes to mind ) and their input is always very helpful. Why cut yourself off from something that you enjoy and can be helpful with just because you do something similar for a living ? Sean
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