Logical cartridge upgrade for a long time Shure M44-7 user

nagaoka’s are known to be musical but not the most detailed

furthermore, you bought one of the lower nag’s

suggest you try to better audiotechnica (vm750) or ortofon (black) mm cart

or if you are ready to pay up for one of the best mm's, find a grace f9 ruby

Shure V15 Type Vmr

Since you like the M44-7 just replace the stylus with a new one!!
https://www.lpgear.com/product/DJSUBN447-G.html

M44-7 has extremely high output for MM cartridge ( 9.5 mV) , cheapest bonded conical stylus with rolled-off bass and highs. This cartridge is very popular on club scene, even after Shure officially discontinued this one and many other cartridges. Why it’s so popular ? The answer is OUTPUT and very good tracking abilities for professional use (DJing).

If you will buy a great MM or MI cartridge to replace your Shure M44-7 the output will be 2-5 mV (some MM/MI have lower output). Prepare for this, because loudness has nothing to do with the quality!

The best cartridges you can get for under $350 are Stanton 881s and Pickering XSV/3000. Both carts have nude Stereohedron stylus tip and sound like a mastertape. You will never find anything close to this (in the same budget) buying modern MM cartridges. If you can spend more there are better cartridges, but still not modern MM.

P.S. If you want to improve your M44-7 search for Jico S.A.S. (Super Analog Stylus), but this stylus will cost you like a whole new cartridge. I'm not sure they made SAS for M44-7, but you can email them and ask for SAS. 

Stanton cartridge must be with original Stereohedron stylus, you can't upgrade this cartridge with JICO, it is a downgrade. So when it comes to serious Stanton or Pickering models you'd better buy only original Stereohedron styli. 

  

Thank you all for the suggestions, lots of directions to go in. I really appreciate it. 

@yogiboy I've played around with some JICO replacements for the M44-7. While they will totally pass in a DJ booth setting, at home they fall short, with a distinctly duller, woodier sound. 

@chakster Thank you for the suggestions, will look into them. I wrote to Jico about the SAS option, and they said they don't make one for M44-7.
@jjss49 thank you, will look into your suggestions. Re: Nags, I just read way too much hype before trying it, I think it messed with my expectations. 

@absolutlahmi  

You can read more about Pickering XSV/4000 on UKAM
This one is much better than Stanton 881s and Pickering XSV/4000
But more expensive, mainly because it's still sealed (NOS). 

@absolutlahmi Did you end up finding a cartridge that you're happy with? I'm in a similar position, looking to upgrade the M44-7 on my MK2.

Nick, look for Audio-Technica with MicroLine stylus if you want something new, relatively cheap and good sounding (not dark sounding like those cheap Conical m44-7). Stylus tip responsible for frequency response.

Better carts than new AT are those vintage MM or MI with advanced profiles. The best AT MM is AT-ML170 and AT-ML180 (absolutely killer carts).  

Thanks, @chakster - I'm looking at the AT carts and trying to find an entry-level/budget MicroLine; would that be the VM540ML? That one is a bit more than I'd like to spend (not sure if there are cheaper options?), but if it constitutes a major upgrade from the M44-7 and offers high value for the price, I'd probably go for it.

One reason the M44 is so bright is that the tonearm cable has a certain capacitance, and this is interacting with the rather high inductance of this cartridge to produce a high frequency peak that is quite audible!


I doubt any cartridge with 5mV will be as bright. If that is what one has been listening to for years, they might regard it as normal, but it really isn't! For more information on how this works, take a look at this webpage:
http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html
Its realistic to assume (without knowing otherwise) that the inductance of the cartridge is nearly double that of a cartridge with half the output. So drop '1000' into the calculator for the inductance value and you will see that the peak is centered around 11KHz!

You might want to play a different cartridge (like the Grado Gold) for quite a while to get used to the more neutral presentation...

@Nickpish yes, the ML is MicroLine, try it, AT is reasobably priced MM. 

Thank you all for your recommendations. 

@nickpish I'm usually slow moving with pulling the trigger on upgrades etc., so it may be a while. But I do always try to come back to threads to give an update for due diligence. Great to see someone else trying to figure out their next move past the M44. 

@atmasphere Wow. Thanks for that info. It's funny - while my ears have gotten quite used to M44, I always assumed that some of the distortion I hear (probably around 8 - 12Khz range) was due to other factors in my system. This makes a lot of sense.

I don't have a lot of experience with different cartridges, but I've had a hard time fully buying into the 'musical' descriptor for a lot of components, including carts. I feel like it's often used to justify muffled, dull characteristics. If I know for fact that Stuart Staples' singing on Tindersticks albums include a subtle but always recognizably breathy, throat-y texture (years of smoking + whiskey?), and I'm used to hearing that clearly while a cartridge like Nagaoka completely fails to extract that from the vinyl, it's hard for me to buy into the idea of it being more 'musical'. I'd say the opposite. Thanks for the recommendations and knowledge, really appreciate it!

The trick here is knowing what the original tape actually sounded like. If there are tonal aberrations in the playback it will certainly affect how you hear things. If that's the only way you've ever heard a certain recording when you hear how it was meant to sound, it may well sound wrong to you.

Nagaoka completely fails to extract that from the vinyl, it’s hard for me to buy into the idea of it being more ’musical’. I’d say the opposite.

Nagaoka MP110 made with BONDED Elliptical tip, Shure M44-7 made with BONDED Conical tip.

Nagaoka is Moving Permalloy cartridge (generator), Shure is a classic Moving Magnet but with extremely high output. 

As Jonathan Carr commented once: "The moving permalloy operating principle would be that of a Moving Iron but with increased sensitivity, which could be used alternatively to increase output, reduce moving mass, or decrease inductance."

You can definitely find much better cartridges than Nagaoka or Shure. I am not a fan of any of them too.

@chakster Thank you for confirming re the AT microline- I'm definitely leaning in that direction. I'm also curious about some of the Ortofon carts such as the 2M Red or Blue- do you have any experience with those or thoughts on the general sound signature of Ortofon carts vs that of AT? As expressed in the original post by @absolutlahmi, I'm also partial to the M44-7's "big sound", and I particularly like the exaggerated low-end as I listen to a lot of bass-oriented electronic music, along with more abstract/atmospheric sounds along the lines of Boards of Canada and Autechre. So, ideally, I'd love to find a cartridge that can extract more nuance and detail, but also bear out some of the "oomf" of a cartridge like the M44-7. I get the impression that the high-end, audiophile-oriented carts strive for a neutral/balanced sound that is as "unopinionated" as possible- and while I'd love to get even more detail from my records, I'm also interested in a bit of color in the form of boldness in the low-end. I'd say my price point maxes out at around $250-300, so I'm not sure which cart might offer the best bang for the buck with respect to the type of sound I'm after, but I'd greatly appreciate any further thoughts or feedback- thanks!

Ok, M2 Red is garbage, stay away from this one, in this series you could try Black. 
Within your budget at $300 or $350 (in my opinion) Stanton 881s or Pickering XSV-3000 (both with Stereohedron tip) are the best you can get, the sound is so sweet. 
An old Ortofon M20 FL (Fine Line tip) is best buy under $200 if you can find it (styli are still available new). 

Ok, thanks @chakster - I've read very conflicting accounts of the 2M Blue; some say it has great bass and others that it's non-existent. I'll stay away from the Red. Re the Stanton and Pickering carts you mentioned: those would both need to be purchased second-hand, as they're no longer manufactured, correct? Also, how would you say the AT microlines sound in the bass department? More neutral than the Stanton or Pickering? I'm partial to buying something new (from the manufacturer) but would consider other options to find the "right" cart.

Stanton and Pickering are still available NEW (NOS aka New Old Stock) from time to time and they are fine (this is really the best quality for lowest price today). Styli also available new (genuine). I rate them higher than Audio-Technica entry models with ML tip. A friend upgraded his M2 Red with Stanton 881s mkII and it was such a huge upgrade for him.

AT is definitely better than Ortofon in my opinion, my choice of AT is not in your price range, but i’m excited about AT-ML170 and AT-ML180 cartridges.

@nickpish - since my post, I went with an AT VM540ML based on the recommendations here. I don't want to sound like a confirmation-biased fanatic, but man.. the improvement has been incredible, even right out of the box. 
Much clearer details across the whole spectrum. 
Sonic details extracted that weren't available before with the M44-7.
Inner groove distortion gone for the most part. 
The 11khz 'peak' mentioned by @atmasphere makes a lot of sense now. I used to think that was a given with vinyl, but with the AT upgrade I feel like I have access to the full frequency range without distortion...
And just overall coherence, detail, and what I would call a more 'physical' listening experience. 

Specifically about bass: I don't think the VM540ML is MISSING much bass per se.. It's definitely not an M44-7 in sheer bass output.. it's a bit more subdued, but again to @atmasphere 's point, I do feel like the bass that's getting reproduced is more in line with what was intended, rather than what was made up by M44-7. Right out of the box, the initial feeling is that the bass sounds a bit 'woodier', slightly dull on some records. But even with about 20+ hours of burn-in, I'm already not really missing M44-7. If you have a decent phono stage, and somewhat capable speakers, I'm pretty sure the AT won't disappoint in the bass department. 

Also, I'm confident in my analysis, because I have tried other carts before the AT, unlike the Nagaoka MP110, and this is a completely different experience. 
Also to note - if you get the MV540ML new, and pre-installed on a AT headshell, it's more of less optimized for an SL1200 table (I find). I had to do very minimal adjustments to get it to sound great, track nicely, and extract all the sound I was missing properly from the first moment til the end of a record. 

@absolutlahmi Thanks so much for posting your feedback on the VM540ML- that's great to hear you're pleased with the purchase; congrats! I've spent countless hours reading about various cartridges on forums and review sites, but your feedback in particular as an SL1200/M44-7 owner is especially valuable. I've also been leaning in that direction, due in no small part to the feedback here. Here are a few questions for you, if you don't mind: first, do you have any recommendations as far as cartridge alignment, VTF, anti-skate and tonearm height w/ the VM540ML? Did you use an alignment protractor? I have an overhang gauge for the SL1200, which I've used to align the M44-7. Lastly, I've read many comments about the "brightness" of the VM540ML, which is sometimes described as excessive- how has your experience been in this regard? Thanks again for the phenomenally helpful feedback.

When someone who use CONICAL stylus (with rolled-off bass and high frequencies) comparing it to MICRO LINE stylus claiming the last one is bright, you have to admit that this person prefer colored rolled-off sound. Reading other forums you have to take in count that users of the m44-7 are often djs with average phono preamps in their mixers. You have to understand who post what. Most of the forums are useless and posters know nothing avout what they are posting.

Follow manufacturers recommendations from the manual of any cartridge, Technics tonearm is fine for AT cartridges (or any mid compliance cartridges). I have a pair of SL1210mk2 for more than 25 years and tried over 60 cartridges on those decks (including some of the best MM ever made). Technics is not in my main system, but I test all cartridges on SL1210mk2 first (with the headphones).

Shure M44-7 and Shure Whitelabel are the worst sounding cartridges, even $110 Grado DJ200i (MI) based on Grado Black is superior, not to mention a proper hi-fi cartridges that 10 times better than Grado!

@chakster Thanks for the reply- to be clear, in referencing reviews/comments mentioning "brightness" in the VM540ML sound, these are not (as far as I know) unique to M44-7 users, but rather reflective of a recurring sentiment I encountered in a variety of sources. As with everything else, determining and/or relying upon the credibility of a given reviewer/pundit/self-described "audiophile" is a dubious exercise, so I typically go the route of reading as much as I can stomach, from as many seemingly reputable sources as possible, and noting any common trends or patterns of feedback. I don't doubt the overall quality of sound from a cartridge like the VM540ML is far superior to that of the M44-7 (just like the quality of a photo from a proper DSLR is vastly superior to that from a phone), but any "reviews" of such devices will always be riddled with the implicit bias/range of preferences inherent in a given individual (just as I will readily admit to having a bias towards a more bass-heavy or bass "colored" sound- or to having a preference for images from a Nikon over a Canon SLR :) (Yes, I work in photography, hence the analogy.)

It depends on your phono stage, tonearm and many other factors.
Some great MM can do as low as 5Hz up to 60kHz, it’s impossible without advanced profiles originally designed for Quadraphonic records (like Shibata). When a cartridge can do 10Hz (like this one) you don’t have to worry about bass at all, if you can’t get a proper bass from such cartridge then your phono stage is guilty, your tonearm, speakers and so on, but definitely NOT a cartridge. The main problem with cheap MM cartridges is rolled-off highs and this problem is much more serious than bass.

Pickering with Stereohedron stylus is superb at $300-400 range (NOS), read more here.

@nickpish As you mentioned, it's nearly impossible to come to a universally accepted definition of descriptors, including 'brightness'. To me VM540ML sounds more detailed, with more information extracted especially in the high registers, and most importantly without distortion. 

As I mentioned in one of my previous post, I'm also skeptical of some of the descriptors where lack of detail, and a darker, dead-er sound is described as 'musical'. To me there is nothing 'musical' about lack of detail. In the same vain, there is nothing excessively 'bright' about the increased detail in the high registers, which I experienced with VM540ML. But then, that argument gets us back to atmasphere's point about whether you have access to master tape, and really know how something was meant to sound in the studio. And that's where I jump off the audiophile ship :)

well said @absolutlahmi 

Thanks again for the feedback @absolutlahmi & @chakster - I've actually gone ahead and placed an order for the VM540ML as something of a Christmas gift for myself- I can't wait to set it up. I realize terms such as "brightness" are rather murky/arbitrary, but it's helpful to hear your feedback on the sound, particularly as someone coming from the M44-7. I think my next upgrade will be a new phono stage- I currently have a Cambridge Audio Azur 551p, which I purchased 5+ years ago- it seems to do the job, but I frankly haven't had anything else against which to compare, so I have no idea how its performance/sound would compare to that of another (i.e. better) phono stage. I'm not sure if either of you would have any recommendations for a (budget-friendly) phono stage to pair with the VM540ML?

Congrats, @nickpish. I have a feeling you will enjoy the upgrade as I did. 
In terms of budget friendly phono stages, I've heard nothing but good things about the Schiit Mani, performing way above its 'pay grade'. 
 

Thanks @absolutlahmi - I'm very excited to experience the VM540ML! And thanks again for your extremely helpful feedback, along with that from @chakster. And that's a good call on the Schiit Mani- I actually recently purchased the Magni 3+ heaphone amp for late night vinyl listening on headphones, and it's pretty great.

One other question for you, @absolutlahmi - do you have any tips for aligning this cartridge on the SL-1200? Do you use the Technics overhang gauge or another method?

Don’t know what you expected from Schiit.
My recommendation is Australian made JLTi mk4 or mk5 with special mod from the manufacturer to expand optional MM loading up to 100k Ohm (he can do that by request). This phono stage is great for MC too. Optional RCA plugs is amazing feature to change cartridge loading.  

@chakster Are you referring to the Schiit Mani? As for the unit you linked, that looks nice but way beyond what I'd be willing to spend. I've read many good things about the Rega Phono series as well- not sure if you have any thoughts on those?

Shiit Mani is what I recommended to my 24 y.o. nephew for his first analog setup, but I can't recommend this cheap unit for serious listening to anyone of audiogon, it's just basics even in it was made in the USA, same about Rega and related cheap units, they are nothing special.  

JLTi is very special phono stage with long history, used mk4 is about $750 or even cheaper and this phono stage is outstanding in comparison to units that cost over $2k. The price on JLTi website is in Australian Dollars (not USD). 

This is the stage with RCA polug-in LOAD RESISTORS and user can make any value to load or unload MM or MC (for MM a special mod from the manufacturer required, but this mod is free). 

Anyway, if it's too expensive never mind, for someone else it can be a perfect choice. 

This is not a conventional phono stage, see below (from my chat with the manufacturer) to spread the light: 

"Have you noted there is a movement towards 'current mode' phono stages for MC cartridges? These are really only suitable for MC cartridges as they convert the higher current of MC and this only works for low impedance cartridges.

The JLTi Phono also uses 'current mode' but in a different way. Again, trying not to be too technical, it is a trans-conductance circuit where even the RIAA EQ takes place via current being dumped into the EQ components and from here forms the voltage that we finally end up listening to after it has been buffered and converted to low output impedance of the phono."  

@chakster Thank you for the details- the JLTi sounds like a very impressive unit. In my case, given that something like the Rega might not constitute much of an upgrade from my current Cambridge Audio, I suppose a case could be made for saving up and buying something like the JLTi. I certainly don't want to spend $300-500 on a unit that would only offer a meager improvement over my current phono stage.

Being a klutz, I keep destroying the stylus on my ADC XLM II. It is in a low mass Magnepan Utratrac in my 'B' system.
Thinking about all the abuse DJs give their styli. Is there anything rugged but decent sounding of highish compliance I might want?
Classical and Jazz.

@fstein budget is the only limit factor.