That's why George Cardas has been a success in the cable business for as long as I can remember.
His tonearm wire, binding posts (both patented and standard versions), female RCA jacks and other specialty items are among the best out there.
Glad you found a tonearm cable you like, an interesting test for sure. |
Thanks, made for interesting reading. Most of us don't have the opportunity to do this. |
Thanks Opus88, for posting your impressions of the Cardas and Discovery tonearm wire harnesses. The rewiring of tonearms with a continuous run of wire from cartridge clip to phono input is something that I have always felt is conspicuously rare among the many tweaks available to an audiophile; specially when it can be done externally, as I did. The benefits of eliminating several solder joints, plugs, and the continuity of type of wire all the way to phono preamp are, in my experience, as significant as major component upgrades. However, as every experienced audiophile knows (or should know), synergy is the key to good sound, and there is still much that we don't understand about what exactly, in the technical realm, creates good synergy in the aural realm. Then, of course, there is the issue of personal preference.
The two wire harnesses that Opus66 writes about are the wires that I rewired my Eminent Technology 2 air bearing tonearm with for the first (Cardas) and second (Discovery)times. Over the course of the many years that I have used that tonearm I have rewired it three times. I purchased it wired with VDH MCS150, and it is currently wired with Audionote silver. I used it for a minimum of three years with each of those wires, and with the exception of the VDH, always with one continuous run to preamp. I have used a variety of different cartridges of the MM, and primarily MC types. The arm has been mounted on three diffeent tables, and for the last three years on a TNT MK6, on which I have used the Cardas, Discovery, and AN wires. Amplification has been varied, but mainly of the tube variety. Point is, I feel I have a pretty good idea of how all four wires sound in my system.
My system definitely leans to what most audiophiles would consider to be the rich and romantic side of neutral. I don't think so, as I feel more times than not, that most audiophiles' systems are way too lean sounding and lack the body and tonal density that I consider realistic. In that context, my impressions of the four wires are as follows:
VDH MCS150: Excellent detail retrieval, great speed, but dry sounding through the midrange and highs. Overly bleached sounding tonally. I did not find the sound enjoyable. Flutes sounded too metallic, clarinets not woody, and not luxurious enough in their low registers. Strings could get strident very easily. Reminded me of my old Audio Research SP9 as far a tonal color.
Cardas: As Jeff noted, a very smooth sounding cable. There was a very attractive ease to the sound that let one relax into the music. Well balanced, but too dark sounding for my system and my tastes. The high frequency extension was all there, but there was the sense that all the light bulbs in the room were changed from 100W to 40W. I hear a similar effect with the only Benz cartridge that I have heard in my system (Ruby2). A dark tonality, but with images that are smaller and leaner than real. That is the mystery to me, and why I think that there is a lot that we don't understand about synergy (well, I'll speak for myself). Jeff found the Cardas to present fuller and bigger images than the Discovery. That is exactly the opposite of what I experienced in my system. The Cardas seems to shrink the size of images. Detail, dimensionality, and depth were all good, but the entire presentation seems to shrink by what seems about 20%. The mentioned darkness of tone tended to obscure the natural nasties that are present sometimes in the sound of unamplified instruments such as sharply articulated woodwind notes, and the ascerbic sound of muted trumpet for instance. Jeff has a sophisticated ear, and I know that he heard what he describes. So it must be due to the interaction of the wire's characteristics with those of his cartridge, preamp, and the rest of his system.
Discovery: Much more open in the high frequencies, and what I would consider a more natural/realistic tonal signature. Bigger soundstage with full images. My main objection to the sound of this wire is that I found it to have what I would describe as a soft grain. Almost as if you were looking very very closely at a picture in a newspaper, and being able to see the dots. But, overall, in my sytem, closer to right. I do not consider it to be "bright", but consider the rest of my system.
Audionote: To say that this wire transformed the sound of my analog set-up would be an understatement. I consider it to be a fantastic and beautiful sounding cable. It is extremely refined sounding, with amazing detail. Extremely open and clear in the highs, but not harsh. There is a striking absence of grunge in the spaces between images. Romantic, as usually described by audiophiles, it is not. But it is not bleached sounding at all. It lets a flute sound appropiately metallic, while not forcing the cello's upper range to sound strident without enough wood in the sound, while they play together. Adding this cable to my set-up reminds me of some of the qualities that I would hear when, in a less-complicated-lifetime ago, I had the time to keep my system entirely harwired, without a single jack or connector in use. A purity that was beautiful, even with the lesser components that I owned at the time. It is the most realistically dynamic of the four, in the sense of allowing the small increments of dynamic change in the sound of a string section's crescendo to be heard, while the orchestra's percussion stays at one volume. I can't say enough good things about this wire. It is, unfortunately, a PITA to work with. It is extremely thin.
Best to all.
System:
-VPI TNT6/SDS
-Eminent Technology2/HP manifold/HP pump
-VDH Grasshopper, VDH MC1S, Shelter 901, AT ATML170, Azden PVL50, Empire 4000DIII, Decca London.
-EAR 834P(highly modified), Melos 222c (highly modified)
-Audio Synthesis "Passion"
-EAD DAC/transport
-Manley 200 mono's
-Stax F-81's, Maneplanar MGIIIA's (highly modified), Paragon Regents
-Siltech cabling throughout
-Stax Lambda Pro/tube driver
-Porter Ports, BDR cones, maple platforms, homemade lead- bar resonance tuners.
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Frogman,
Where does one find the Audio Note tone arm wire? |
Albert, I purchased my Audio Note wire through Audio Federation Inc. in Boulder, CO. I dealt with Neli, who ordered it from England. They were terrific people to deal with. |
I find the Discovery an excellent value and exceptional sounding. Very similar to Nordost tyr. Used on Graham phantom 2, dynavector 507mk2. |
Thanks again to Frogman (Lino) for allowing me the opportunity to listen to the Discovery and Cardas wires in my system. His own impressions once more reinforce how extremely important it is to realize(technical/electrical and personal preference factors aside)the interaction of different components in different systems can produce significant variations in what is heard. This is why, before proceeding with my evaluation, I had issued a warning.
The only components in Lino's system I am really familiar with are the Eminent Technology tonearm, which I once owned a while ago, and the very fine Porter Ports, which I also plug into. I use the bigger brother(EAR 88PB)of his modified EAR 834P preamp, and though not familiar with his VDH Grasshopper cartridge, I once owned the VDH Black Beauty. Finally, the kind of speakers we own--his electrostatic and planar vs. my conventional driver--are of course fairly different.
Particularly interesting was his admission that in his system the Cardas actually had a shrinking effect on images, while in mine it had a blossoming effect. Aside from the elements in my system already mentioned, I believe the tubes used in my Air Tight amps--Brimar 12ax7 longplates and Mullard 12au7 boxplates--contributed notably to what I heard. Admittedly, I do tend to prefer a somewhat darker tonality,(which I often hear in live concerts) relative to a dead on neutral sound. Also, sometimes I would rather experience ease of listenability, as opposed to the more truthful representation of how the recording was made, particularly when it reveals the kinds of irritating sounds I virtually never hear at a live concert, even if seated fairly close up. As I've commented before on other threads, colorations are unavoidable. They always figure in what we like or dislike in this interesting, fun and at times perplexing hobby. |
My expereience has been similar to that of Frogman's.
Wire is really very simple. It either alters phase by virtue of its reactance (inductance and capacitance), shields well (or not), and has resistance. Litz configurations address phase and skin effect, by virtue of their design - with each strand spending an equal amount of "time" in the center of the bundle.
Getting there isn't all that simple however (grin).
The Discovery cable is much lower capacitance than the Cardas, but having said that, some systems need the tone control (capacitance) inherent in Cartdas' designs.
In my experience, the Discovery is more of a Chameleon. In a tonearm wire context, you'd call it a bit bright if you judged it in a Tri-Planar, and extended, full-bodied and organic in a Talea tonearm.
I recently had to re-terminate my Talea tonearm (having had XLR connectors on it and converting it to RCAs).
I initially started with some Cardas rhodium RCAs I had on hand. I asked Joe for a set of stock Discovery connectors.
The shift from the Cardas to the Discovery connectors was qualitatively similar to the differences in the two wires, as a few layers of fog were peeled away when I went to the Discovery RCAs.
There's much more metal in the Cardas RCA's, and this fits with my recent experience of the past few years, that less metal is better (e.g. Eichman Bullet Plugs).
So, what's new? Not much. Cables still end up being our tone controls.
If your Cardas cables are a bit too laid back for you, I suggest you don't throw them out quite yet, but rather try your hand at re-terminating them with say, Eichman Bullet Plugs.
It could save you quite a bit of $do-rei-me.
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier |
Great discussion, fellas! |
Thom mackris: "So, what's new? Not much. Cables still end up being our tone controls"
Honesty is always refreshing. |
Did anyone try Purist Audio or Stealth Audio tonearm wire?
Just curious. |
Inna: I'm not sure if we're on the same frequency. I've never heard of any [internal] tone arm wire from Purist. I'd certainly like to know if they produce it and if it is available for purchase. Thanks. |
Nor have I ever heard it but I thought someone might. |
Not to put too fine a point on it, but even tone controls can wreak havoc on an audioi signal. There is bad wire out there, as well as good wire that's implemented poorly.
I didn't want it to be misunderstood. Cable makers sweat long and hard in developing their wire. They are however, balancing a relatively small group of parameters, and like any audio design, choices (compromises) sometimes have to be made in order to end up with a design that makes sense.
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier |
I am very late to this thread (just seven years). Why can't more forum threads have not only such wonderful and detailed descriptions of sonic impacts, but also such reasoned and gentlemanly exchanges? What a pleasure it was to read this, guys! I am thinking about rewiring g my Grace 714 tonearm because I just bought a Grado Ref Ref and it is amazing but I wish it were a bit warmer. It took my system treble a bit too far. My interconnects are cardas golden cross, so I can't warm them up much more! |
Montaldo,
Agree re his review. Even the pro reviewers and bloggers are not doing a very good job these days. HP (Harry Pearson) and others used to give both overall and explicit examples of how something sounds. Now we seem to get whether something is detailed or not. I always want to know if I can hear the wood of the guitar and not just the pick hitting the string.
I really like reading Fremer but he is guilty as well. Somewhat of a leading edge detail freak and often fails to let us know if the component can reproduce the reverb tail or other things related to a full sound. People often use the word neutral incorrectly these days as they really mean fast and thin.
Take it EZ,
Robert
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My opinion is that words are words. In the end, one really has to rely upon one's own opinion of any audio gear, when installed in one's own system. I have auditioned many items once loved by HP. Through this experience, I learned that HP's descriptions of sonic character revealed much more about his biases as a listener than they did about "sonic character". I almost always found his favorite wires, etc, to be bright to the point of irritating. This is not to say that I am right, and he was wrong. This is merely to say you have to listen for yourself. I would be the first to say also that he wrote brilliantly and could really make you feel that you knew the what and why of any piece of gear he reviewed. Problem was that it did not hold up in practice.
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Lewm,
It is difficult these days to listen for yourself. Even in Houston which is the fourth largest US city by population and third or second largest by area, there are few if any dealers left that will let one audition a component in one's own system. In fact outside of a few home theater stores and Magnolia there is hardly any HiFi stores at all.
It is true that in some cases one can return items to an online retailer if they sound bad in one's system. Having well written reviews can provide a good starting point along with measurements.
Take care,
Robert
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Robob, The problem you cite, regarding the difficulty associated with home trials, is one reason why I went heavily into DIY starting about 20 years ago. I make my own interconnects and AC cords, and it's very rewarding in the sense that I don't spend mega-dollars on these items. But there IS a company, Cable Company, that does send out ICs and AC cords for home trial. Here is their website: https://www.thecableco.comI have several friends who do business with them; their reputation is impeccable by all accounts. Perhaps you have "been there, done that", as they say. |
One assumes all tone arm wires are marked for directionality. |
@montaldo
i am even later to this thread and am very grateful for such an informative post by the op and others - I am dicing on options between Cardas (possibly Clear) or the likes of Discovery - not easy to source in the UK.
I don’t trust my soldering skills with AN wire… that said has anyone fiddled around with shielding options?
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I don’t trust my soldering skills with AN wire…
@lohanimal It’s really not that bad once you figure it out. A good soldering iron like a Hakko FX-888D will help. To tin it, melt a blob of solder on your soldering iron tip (I used the smallest I had- a Hakko T18-D08) and run 1/4" of the wire through it. You’ll have to test a few different temps to find which one doesn’t vaporize the wire. After I found that temp, I was able to tin all eight ends of my wires with no problem. You’re also going to need a set of "helping hands" to hold everything during soldering. I’m 45 and my eyesight is pretty good, but I still had to use a large magnifying glass to solder the wire to the cartridge clips and KLE RCAs.
Overall, it is pretty difficult to work with and very easy to damage if you’re not careful, but making a tonearm cable out of it is totally doable.
And just to be clear, the wire I used that I think is being discussed in this thread is part number AN-WIRE-300.
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